"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Remember that narcissists, predators, manipulators and abusers all love situations where they can make people compromised, they are instinctively drawn to situations where they can make you act against your own interests, they can smell that this makes you weak and allows them to control you

Mhysa

You’ve had a lifetime of it, it’s bound to feel overwhelming. You can make yourself as compliant as you like, it won’t change how they see you. Believe me I’ve tried for 50 years. I’m the goodest girl that ever was and it’s never enough.

My lightbulb moment came only a few months ago when my DM did something terrible to my sister, who was always the scapegoat (and I to my shame, I had gone along with it for an ‘easy’ life) It just flicked a switch, and I had to act. For the first time in my life I spoke to her honestly and clearly and told her what she’d done was wrong and that I wasn’t going to be contacting them now.

She went ballistic, and has been contacting me frequently by various methods which I’ve been acknowledging but not responding to. My DF who is her enabler is sitting on the top of a fence so thin I can’t believe it’s holding up.

I’ve told two people outside my immediate family, one was incredibly understanding, the other not so much.

My DSis is in a terrible state, but resolute in her determination to stop this horrible nonsense going any further. I know that my DM blames her for involving me, as she feels it’s none of my business.

Drama, lies, manipulation, fear, obligation, guilt. I don’t want any if it. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Read the literature in the OP. Check in here. Start living your life. I believe in you.

SimplySteve I wish you much strength for your meeting tomorrow, I know from your posts that these encounters are painful for you. This is your time now, not the abusers who took so much from you. Good luck! 💐

Please can I join?

I am preparing to cut contact with my parents as much as possible. She was always good with my kids and has them after school 1/2 days a week.

However, I have found out recently that she has been slapping them on the legs for “bad behaviour”. I’m done, even though I only have them for emergency childcare (abusive ex husband who won’t take time off for sick kids) She was emotionally abusive, and sometimes physically, when I was growing up. My DF panders to her and rarely stepped in - if ever.

If I try and talk to her about it she will just erupt, then my DF will be sent round here to manipulate me into apologising to keep the peace.

They offer me no emotional support and never have done. But sometimes practical things - DM will offer to come here and help me tidy up sometimes.

She used to babysit on the occasional evening when I was married - but refused to do so ever since the day we split. I know this is my punishment for leaving him. I think she actually said I’d made my bed and should lie in it! But she will take an ill child on a work day - which I do need sometimes

She didn’t speak to me for 6 weeks when I told her my ex and I were splitting up (she said the way I told her was thoughtless and I should have thought more about her feelings, as a grandma)

She also told me that my ex would meet someone else easily but I should expect to be alone forever 😄 When I called her out on that she shrieked at me and accused me of being self absorbed and a terrible daughter.

She is relatively pleasant most of the time but talks constantly about herself and never asks how I am. I know she brags about me to her friends (well, one actual “friend” who she constantly bad mouths) though and I suspect that is the only reason she sees the grandchildren, and comes to me for Christmas dinner, so she can present herself as being close to her family.

There is much more of a back story than this but it is too long!

Basically, I cannot face any kind of confrontation with her (mid way through divorce and so tired) so am just going to book my own after school care for September.

She is likely to phone and ask if a child can come for a sleepover though (she likes them one at a time). I wonder if I should just keep making excuses?

And the children will wonder why they are not seeing her.

I just want to hide away from it. They were quite upset last time, after she had smacked their little brothers legs. But overall they like going there. She does buy good presents too and can be lovely to them (and always has done, which confuses me a bit)

A counsellor suggested years ago that I go contact with them, but I wasn’t ready and clung on to the odd time that did feel like support.

She was very kind to me the day after I had each of my children, for example (whilst still in hospital) And she has lent me money before when I have been desperate.

An example of the supportive thing she has done - she took three months off work when I had my first - and told everyone it was to “help” me with my first baby.

She actually came round for an hour or so each morning and held the baby, and had some photos taken, while lecturing me about my lack of systems and how much more organised she was when she had children.

All I wanted was a bit longer to sleep - recovering from c section - but she told me that was not why she was there and I needed to get up and get on with things - then she would go off and do her own thing for the day!

And then made out to other people that she was supporting me full time that summer! It is ALL about other people and how they see her. Lucky me, having a mum who took time off just to support me.

Anyway, I wrote more than I meant to there.

Well done Cobra the safety of your children definitely should be your priority and if at this stage you have tried dealing with this issue previously and you have had no traction then definitely it is time to make the necessary changes.

You will find people in a similar bind to you here. It is very complicated and compromising but all you can do is try to gain your own personal perspective and act from there.

Dysfunctional dynamics are really common in families so no one is suggesting that family dynamics need to be perfect but they do need, on balance, to be good enough. If your gut instinct tells you that hitting your children is damaging them (and I completely agree, but it is your instincts that matter here) then you need to keep them away from someone willing to do that to them against your wishes.

Hi @CobraGoose:)
She was very kind to me the day after I had each of my children, for example (whilst still in hospital) And she has lent me money before when I have been desperate
she has to offer some carrots otherwise you'd never get close enough for her to beat you with the stick!
It's all to reel you in so she can dominate and manipulate you, lord it over you to make herself feel all powerful

Hello all, have come on for a bit of comfort and support.

I am pretty far on in my journey but still at the start line if that makes sense? After years of counselling I now know that my parents were abusive and cruel and I do not love them. My Dad is dead but was an alcoholic, while my Mother is a full-blown narcissist who is incapable of loving anyone but herself.

DH and I have decided we are going to take some action and go lc with my Mother. We all just wish she would disappear and never be seen again but she keeps popping up (and letting her self into our house without knocking) and dh is tackling it. It is the first time in our 17 year relationship that he has got involved but he is sick of her bullying me and I am at the stage where I just want it to stop but still suffer with the fear she has worked so hard to instill in me.

My parents have got away with so much. I have 3 siblings and it is incredible how much support my Mother still continues to garner from us. She is horrible, there is literally nothing nice about her. My eldest son is 11 and is now refusing to have contact with her, which is making me want to be stronger.

Anyway, I have been reading your posts and wise words. I am kind of hoping that one day I will tell her she is a terrible person and never want to hear from her again.

Hi MrsBobDylan
‘I do not love them’
That’s really jumped out at me. Sounds like you’ve really got to the end of your tether there. I hope you find the support you need here. 💐

Bless all of you for your kind words, trying to get an early night as also have a long, intrusive, painful medical study tomorrow.

I'll be back!

Thanks to everyone for the advice and support . I really appreciate it xx

How to break the terrible hold that they have over us, how to get to the point where you could just tell them to f* off to their faces and not break down in tears or be in a shaking rage
How to do this before they are too old?

Herocomplex that was a huge turning point for me, realising the love was gone.

I think my Dad loved me but was so absorbed in either addiction, affairs or battling with my mother that it got lost in the chaos. I am sure that my Mother doesn't love me, although, like others on here, she spends a disproportionate amount of time telling anyone who'll listen how much she loves her children.

My counsellor said that the last thing to go is hope and I have found that to be true. I kept hoping they would change, treat me well, love me :(. Eventually, I lost hope and for the first time had the chance to move on.

However, now that just leaves me with this bloody, insufferable woman who is technically my Mother but who I have no positive feelings for at all.

MrsBob, can you see your way to treating her in a way which is in accordance with your true feelings?
appreciate the answer is probably no but perhaps if you think about how you would respond to her if this were the case, maybe some role playing with your husband?

@MrsBobDylan - my DF is also an alcoholic!

And you saying “ I do not love them” really hit home. I feel so much guilt and shame about not loving, or even liking, my own mother - and that leads me back to thinking that the things she says about me must be true, that I am difficult and selfish and self absorbed.

When I was little, she used to ask me who I loved the most, her or my dad. When I said him (he used to cuddle me and look after me, she felt cold, and sometimes frightening, even then) she used to get upset and my dad would tell me not to say that and to say I loved them both the same and then I would feel upset and terrible - but I knew I didn’t love her, and that made me feel so wrong then.

My dad - maybe I love him, I don’t know. But I certainly don’t respect him.

I found out recently that my mum has been asking my DC who their favourite people are in the family - which sibling or person they like the most, for example. Why does she do that? 😳

my mum has been asking my DC who their favourite people are in the family - which sibling or person they like the most, for example. Why does she do that?
the short answer...because she's evil!
the longer answer is to do with manipulation, divide and conquer, getting them to tell her who they like most, and by implication who they dont like as much, it's just a way of having something on them that she can use.
Fucking evil bitch

Why does she do that?

Validation, CobraGoose. That's what she's looking for. Image is all. A bit like Snow White's stepmother saying "Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest of them all" - and then smashing it up when it dares to tell the truth. My mother requires the red carpet treatment at family events as the Beloved Matriarch of the family. If she doesn't get the required amount of deference to satisfy her, she carries that grudge forever.

I couldn't bear to read that your mother is slapping your children's legs. She is training them already to read her moods and tiptoe on eggshells around her. Please please put a safe distance between her and them.

MrsBobDylan, I am sorry for what you are going through. How on earth is your mother letting herself into your house without knocking? Is there a way you can put a stop to that? You need to feel safe in your own home.

Hi! I was sent here based on something I posted elsewhere.

I am currently visiting family and all the bad dynamics are coming to the surface and causing me stress.

My mother is a massive control freak and has decided that I don't parent my toddler properly. When she took us on a shopping trip to get DD2.5 shoes, she became furious that DD had a temper tantrum and hissed angrily at me that she had been waiting for this moment for months. She went on to tell me this was my fault for not providing appropriate discipline for my child, who is miserable because she has no structure or rules. She also said my entire family talks behind my back about how unruly DD is and how I let her run wild. We are staying with her and she has taken it upon herself to set up a time out station in the laundry room, where she plans to send DD to sit alone when she has a tantrum. When I ask DD if she wants to do X or Y (inconsequential things like which bathroom stall she wants), she snorts with irritation that I am giving DD options and allowing her to believe that she is in charge.

I'm seeing that this is not atypical in my life. My mother loves me but she has always treated me like I am a mess who can't handle basic things in life correctly. A small example is that if I ever try to help wash up in her kitchen it is made clear that I am doing it wrong. Thinking over my childhood I can remember many times when she was furious with me for not doing things well enough when I was trying my best. She would accuse me of doing things badly to get out of doing them. She also allowed her husband to impose sadistic punishments on me when I was around 4-7 which I am unable to forget.

At the same time, she is extremely sensitive. When she was visiting me, she was keeping some lotion in our dining room by an antique mirror that was propped on a sideboard. Worried the mirror might inadvertently get chipped, I asked her if she would mind keeping it somewhere else in the room. She flipped out and said that I had made her feel totally unwelcome etc etc etc , even though I told her she could put it literally anywhere else in the same room. She has since brought this up again and told me that she will never forget this incident and how hurtful it was.

Separately, my stepmother treated me like a defective and annoying presence she had to suffer throughout my childhood and my father allowed it. She constantly put me down for not being athletic the way she is, for always having my nose in a book, for not dressing in the feminine way she approves of, for being like my mother. She would resentfully talk about how school came easily to me and it was difficult for her son. My successes were not celebrated but instead treated like nothing. I recall that every single weekend I had to go to her son's football games/practices etc. When I once won an art award and my piece was on display, everyone else sat in the car while my father and I went in alone to look at it. Later on when we were at university, my parents visited her son constantly in his university city. Mine was slightly more inconvenient to get to (maybe another 20-30 minutes by car) but they visited him constantly and the only time they came to see me was when his team had a football match against my university's team.

She also believed that I was sneaky and underhanded while her son was flawless, and that is the attitude she had toward me. Though I was a year older and a total goodie goodie, she would put her son 'in charge' when my parents went out on the basis that he was more mature. (Of course the instant they left he would do whatever things we were forbidden from doing, including stealing their alcohol).

Later I left my first husband (who was highly critical of me and seemed to think I was like a child who need constant correction), and my stepmother blamed me and took his side. Based only on what they saw, both she and my father concluded that I was totally at fault.

This has been a bit of a brain dump, but the bottom line is that in adulthood, i have gotten into a number of toxic relationships with men who withheld affection and criticised me relentlessly. I am starting to think that my childhood and family dynamics have turned me into a very messed-up, self-hating person.

Hi dellacucina

Narcissists and enablers have had a huge and devastating role in your life, and I think it’s slowly dawning in you that it’s not normal and you don’t have to accept it.

The incident of the lotion on the dresser is textbook. She has behaved in a completely irrational way for a normal person, yet when you have asked for something completely reasonable she has punished you for daring to speak up. It was provocation and you played the game. She would have enjoyed it, especially the way you did exactly what she wanted.

Using normal toddler behaviour to punish you is another dream come true for her, it will make you very upset and anxious, and cause division between you and your child - another big win for your mother! She’s having the time of her life here!

Have a look at the first post st the beginning of the thread, read the suggested books and visit the Out of The Fog website, particularly the definition of fear, obligation and guilt.

None of this is your fault, but you can make changes in your life for you and your precious dd.

Welcome, you’re in the right place, lots if support and advice and people who understand here 💐

In answer to the question about removing people from your life I would say the answer is very simple but very very hard.

Turn down the high emotions, you don’t have any space for them in your life anymore, the games are over.

Maybe some sadness and regret for the loss of a childhood you were denied, and the loving support of a family you don’t have. You will have grief.

Make them insignificant, they had a chance but they were incapable. Keep saying no, no I don’t want to see you, no you can’t come round, no I’m not discussing it, no thanks, no thanks, no thanks.

All the things I’ve done for you? I am grateful and I told you that.
I’m your mother, where’s the respect? You are, but no I don’t respect you, that’s how it is.
Families are meant to be together. Some are, but not ours.
You’re breaking my heart! That’s your choice, not mine.

Their wants and needs do not supercede yours. Save yourself first. Have boundaries like iron bands.

@dellacucina I think we are at similar points, I can empathise/identify with a lot of what you’ve said and although I don’t have any advice as I’m trying to find my way a bit at the mo I send you love xxx we will be fine! Let them play their games, we can only take what they dish out if we accept it and we don’t have to accept it anymore. If only there weren’t a lot of complex emotions attached to it then that would be make it so much easier but we will get there I am sure and find some peace with it xx

Marmaduke I don’t think the complex stuff gets any less painful, sadly. There are people here who are years into this stuff, and I know they still have incredibly dreadful days.

But the good days are so much better. The blessed relief of not having to make the phone call. The feeling that no visits are scheduled. The idea of Christmas being peaceful, or even dare u say it, happy! 🙂

@Herocomplex yeah I hate having to go round on Boxing Day to play ‘happy families’. Last year we played a board game that was for older kids/adults and my stepfather was teamed up with my 9 year old son. He got up half way through the game and left him to play alone. ( which he couldn’t manage) and proceeded to start hoovering condensation from the windows with some weird device he has. My poor son was gutted. We had to very carefully and gently suggest that maybe he would pretty please rejoin game as DS couldn’t play it alone. God I hate that man! I know it sounds trivial but it’s this total inability to give a shit about anyone else whilst feeling completely within his rights to dish out excessive amounts of shit to anyone that challenges him or acts in a way he disapproves of that get my goat! Rant over

I'm glad that you found your way here too, dellacucina. If I'm reading this right, your parents split up when you were very young. Your 'perfect' mother managed to find a man who also enjoyed inflicting cruel behaviour on you when you were just a small child, while your weak enabling father found another woman every bit as cold and self-regarding as his first wife. Dear God. It's no wonder you've struggled to navigate past toxic relationships yourself. None of your parents or stepparents are exactly role models, are they? You've had a crappy upbringing and you've been let down and ill treated by every so-called responsible adult in your life. I'm so sorry. You deserved better.

I echo everything Herocomplex says. I'm particularly struck by the fact that you have so clearly decided to be a different kind of mother to your own little girl, to treat her as a human being in her own right, to offer her choices. In short, to give your little girl love, support, kindness - all the things that were in such short supply when you were growing up. That tells me you are already a winner in the parent stakes.

Your 2.5 year old daughter has a tantrum that is entirely normal for a 2.5 year old and your mother says she has been waiting for this "for months"??? I'd normally ask what planet she is on but we both know the answer. It's the one where only she is allowed tears, temper and tantrums.

You don't say how much longer your visit will go on for - let me guess, every day feels like an eternity - but carry on standing up for your daughter. 💐

Narcissists need everything to be about them, playing with your son wasn’t giving him enough validation so he disrupted the game, and you all did what you’ve been trained to do and bowed down before him.
No normal adult would have done that, they would have thought about the group dynamic, or said to nine year old ‘when we've finished here will you help me do a little job?’

If you’d called him out he would have said ‘this is my house, I’ll do what I like’ wouldn’t he?

They all follow the same rules, they’re all boringly, terrifyingly the same.