"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

chilled i don’t know if you have read any of the books/website info about NPD?
It really helps if you can see that the behaviour is part of a pattern. When your parents behave as they do you’ll find there’s a fairly consistent formula. Whilst you continue to engage with them (something I hope you will eventually stop doing) if you can look at what they do and say and think ‘aha, that’s exactly what I was expecting you to do’ it’s still horrible but at least you can see it.
Narcissists are horribly predictable.

They’ve got you deep in the FOG. Fear, obligation and guilt. Lose your idea of family bonds, they’re not doing you any service now.

Chilled you need to read and reread what you wrote. Again there is nothing in it for your to feel guilty about. She has primed you to feel guilty by lifelong shaming. That is where the guilt is coming from. It is time to fight with yourself to figure out who you are, not who she has moulded you to be to serve her. The less interaction you have with her, the easier that process will be.

Marmaduke there is so much there in terms of what has happened in your life. It sounds like a life long very toxic pattern of behaviour. And yes your mother is equally complicit by putting her husband first when he was in the wrong and abusive. My mother was the same, her husband, my father was her hero. She also used him as a shield for her own really bad behaviour. Making sense of it is a real journey. I hope you get some insights on this thread that help you make sense of it all.

@lazydaisies thanks, I have read a few posts on here and it does make me feel a bit better seeing people have had similar experiences. Part of the whole narcissist upbringing experience means you are constantly second guessing, doubting yourself and rolling over and taking any amount of crap as the consequences are just not worth challenging them!

Chocrichtea the silent treatment is the only way they know how to try and control you and get you to do what they want you to do. Don't give in and do what is best for you and your DC. If they turn up at your house you don't have to let them in.

SingingLily is definitely right, we all have choices in life, and toxic parents choose to treat their children the way they do. Giving them a crappy childhood. We all had childhoods that weren't very good and I bet none of you treat your children the way you were treated. Instead choosing to be a more compassionate, loving and supportive parent. Or if you make mistakes, which everyone does, recognising and trying to make amends for them. Your parents upbringing isn't an excuse for them to act the way they do!

MarmadukeM
That sounds like a very toxic environment you have had to grow up in and still experience. You deserve better . I think narcassitic people have very selective memories. They remember everything you do wrong and get very defensive when you try to show them evidence of what they have done wrong. Your mother is complicit if she enables his behaviour and failed to protect you as a child. Did you say they have your kids after school for 2 nights a week? How are they with your kids? What effect does their behaviour have on your kids?

Moving home, received psychological appointment for wednesday. Yes, this Wednesday. How the hell am I meant to prepare. Preparing for a psychiatric appointment at the end of the month is bad enough, but this is sheer hell and I am shitting myself bricking it.

Sorry I don't have time to write much.

@MarmadukeM The quick turnaround signifies affair, surely, but mostly it was emotional abuse (I feel silly writing that but I think it was). Emotional abuse confers a higher level of substantial, long term, effect of abuse than physical, studies show.

@PandaAtTheZoo For the keeping busy to keep your mind of any pain you feel, I play computer games

Me too, just getting away from "the real world" for a couple of hours is great. What do you play?

@simplysteveredux I hope it goes ok.

Thanks for your replies. I feel less panicky today. Although I'm ashamed to say I gave in. My dad messaged me and asked if they could pop round last night. I knew it was to see my son not me. It was strange they literally mentioned nothing about the silent treatment for a week and no apology. They gave me a hug and a kiss when they left just like they normally do when things are fine. It was very odd. I'm going to try keep LC from now on. I spoke to Dsis earlier in the day too and that made me feel so much better. To hear from her the same feelings I had and agreed how awful our mum was to us was what I needed to hear and it weren't all in my head. Although I think she was having conflicting feelings of well she has anger issues but she's our mum so we should love her. Where as I'm now more like no she had a choice.

So far they have been pretty decent as grandparents, as much as I have seen. He is now getting older and has COPD which means he gets really out of breath so I don’t think he is capable of full on shouty rants anymore which is one less thing to worry about. I have always been on edge about them having the kids, watching how they interact when I’m there, checking with kids that they are ok and nothing untoward has happened and also making sure they know that noone has the right to treat you badly (should practice what I preach !) I am feeling ashamed tbh as I have let them see them because 1) I felt guilty about not letting them and 2) I needed help with childcare. I limited the time to two evenings, used childminder/after school clubs etc but still, I do feel bad about this now I’m seeing them ‘start’ on my daughter. If I don’t step in at this point and put a stop to it then I am going to be no better than my mother and I can’t allow it to happen, it was probably inevitable that it would come to this but I feel physically sick at the thought of it all. All I can think is of them sat in their caravan, my mother hungover and all upset over how terribly we have treated her after all they have done for us. It simultaneously makes me feel so angry but so guilty too.

@PandaAtTheZoo sorry I meant to tag you in my post but I’m just getting the hang of this

@marmadukem I totally get where you are coming from with the guilt and then help with childcare too. So you are not alone in your thoughts because I feel the same too about my parents. I think my son is younger than your children so I'm worried that when my son is old enough for his own thoughts that the abuse may start.
You have already done so much better than your mum. You're not in denial about their behaviour. You are aware of what they are doing and you have the power to do what she didn't do to you and protect your children

@Chocrichtea Ah thanks that really means a lot, it really does. My friends in real life are great but don’t understand, they just think I should tell them to eff off but it’s so bloody complicated! Why do they have such a hold on us? That’s what I don’t understand. I am a pretty sensible person but when it comes to them I am like a vulnerable little child. I’m 40 for gods sake!!

Marmaduke
You’re deep in the fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) that is typical of the child of a narcissist. As long as you continue to believe that you can do anything to influence their behaviour they’ll continue to control your life.
Remember you didn’t cause this, you cannot change them but you can change how you react to them.

MarmadukeM, from what I know and have read, people with NPD are themselves emotionally very damaged. The theory is that their emotional maturity is that of a three year old, hence the total selfishness and the tantrums. This is why they relate so well to young children but not to older children. Older children have their own thoughts, their own likes and dislikes and opinions. Older children are less gullible. Adult children even less so.

I'm afraid your DD is now at the age where she knows her own mind. Not allowed. This isn't likely to improve, you know, no matter how vigilant you are being. Your DS is not far behind in years but I'm wondering if they treat him differently to your daughter anyway.

MarmadukeM, took too long to post! I had to deal with one of the cats being sick .

As long as you continue to believe that you can do anything to influence their behaviour they’ll continue to control your life.

What Herocomplex said ^
Sums it up neatly!

@SimplySteveRedux
Good luck tomorrow. I realise you are probably surrounded by packing boxes and have a million house moving logistics running through your head anyway, but try to see it as what it is - essential time for you.

You’re deep in the fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) that is typical of the child of a narcissist.

Agree. www,outofthefog.net is your friend.

@SimplySteveRedux when you say prepare for the psychological appointment can you explain what you mean? Do you mean what you are going to discuss or what outcome are you looking to get out of it? The reason I ask is that you seem extremely capable of communication and you seem to have extremely good insight on this board and I suspect into the challenges in your life. You are capable of just sketching a note or two and letting the rest happen on the day. You are capable of articulating what needs to be communicated there and then on the spot. You do it all the time on here from what I have read. As I said to you before you have great insight and I’m not just blowing smoke up your ass it is all here in writing.

I hope tomorrow goes really well for you and the move too.

SimplySteveRedux I love city building type games like ceaser 3 and the anno games. Also statergy games like age of empires and starcraft. Also like shooters/ action games like hitman, assassins creed. Also the tomb raider games and resident evil games. It's a great way to escape from the real world.

Good luck for your appointment and moving home

MarmadukeM I know what you mean. The guilt, wanting help with childcare, the worry and hold your parents seem to have over you. My son is very young at the moment but he really likes seeing my mum. I'm really worried about what my dad's behaviour will be like with my son in the future. And I would feel guilty about denying my son access to see his grandparents.
You definitely better than your mum because you see what's happening and you want to protect your children.

For the why it's so complicated when it comes to our parents, why we are so vulnerable and why they have such a hold.
It's like Lazydaisies said you have a mix of emotions when it comes to your parents, cycling though feeling angry and then triggering a good memory then feeling so sad and then wondering had I misjudged the situation completely. You know they did wrong, you know they did right. And what Herocomplex said about being desperate to be loved and wanted and cherished by our parents, they are supposed to to be the people who should love and care for us more than anyone else. So we tell ourselves stories about how it’s not that bad, and maybe if we just try harder it will be different.

SingingLily what you said about NPD sounds like my dad with the selfishness and the tantrums and lack of emotional maturity and not liking people who have their own different thoughts, likes and dislikes and opinions.

Hardly any of these are my words, by the way, I’m just passing them along, friend to friend.

Narcissists very rarely change, it takes huge amounts of intervention from very skilled (and incredibly rare) therapists.

You cannot ‘deal’ with them, there is no good relationship to be had. Once you accept that you can start to move forward, it’s a bereavement, but for something you never had.

Arm yourself with information. Protect yourself, or it will go on and on.

I don’t want to be brutal, but it’s hopeless.

I echo what everyone else says about the strength of the hold that your parents have over you, but when you think about it we shouldn't be surprised, they were there from the very first moment when we are at our most vulnerable and unformed they were able to shape us and program us to make us work for them and gratify their egos.
Much of this is unconscious automatic and instinctive, it is extremely hard to discern and control what is exactly going on, I feel that the more people involved in this dynamic the more tightly you become bound by this web.
As an only child whose parents are separated so they can't actively collude with one another I feel I have it relatively easy!

ulterego and lazydaisies thank you so much for your comments, I think you both understand my situation more than I have ever been able to, they really mean a lot to me.

It's so difficult to accept things that happened, I feel like I'm betraying her just discussing it. It's hard to accept it was traumatic and even more so not to try and rationalise, so what you said really hit home.

The few times I've spoke to her about things that happened, she's laughed and said I have an over active imagination. To make matters worse, my DB can't remember any of our childhood, so sometimes I feel as if I'm mad.

Vampire also makes sense, I often feel like an emotional sponge, she is incredibly draining. I think this is as much me as it is her though.

Thinking about what you said about friendships too- in the past when I have formed them, she has always made me feel very guilty for spending time with friends, or even doing anything fun. And if I speak about acquaintances, she is never interested or more likely, doesn't like that person/they have spoken about me behind my back. The worst of it is, she does have a handful of friends now and manages relationships with them just fine.

This thread is so supportive, I feel bad taking up space on it, now I feel like the vampire, but it's like a can of worms has just been opened and honestly, someone listening to me and understanding it is just amazing, as are all of you.

This thread is so supportive, I feel bad taking up space on it

Mhysamhysa, please don't feel this way or think you are taking up space on here. This thread is the right place for you to be - I wish none of us needed to be here but we do, so thank goodness for it. Unload as much or as little as you want, as frequently or as rarely as you want. We all do it.

Don't forget too that others read this thread for a long time before gathering up the courage to post. In your own way, you might be helping them too; by describing how it is for you, you could well be helping someone to realise that they are not alone.

My son is very young at the moment but he really likes seeing my mum
Consciously or unconsciously she is very aware that your children are the perfect little levers which allow her to control you.
If she is (or if she's able to be) the sort of person who naturally enjoys the company of and is good with children it's a simple matter to make them absolutely adore you and then you can use them to control their parents.
It's like taking candy from a baby and it puts you in a terrible dilemma, you are completely compromised, the thing which you find damaging and harmful is a thing which your child loves enjoys and benefits from.
If you do what makes your child happy it harms you, if you protect yourself you harm your child.
They have got you stitched up good and proper.