"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

herocomplex she is on a cocktail of medication, she sees a psychiatrist, a mental health nurse and her GP regularly. She hasn't had a high for 7 years, but I've read lots about bipolar and being manipulative and struggling with irrational anger are common traits.

We had a very cut off childhood. No one was allowed in our home, it was very secretive. As a result I don't have friends and find relationships really hard. My mum and I are very close, so I find it hard when she cuts me out.

Thank you for the suggestions, I will look into that. And for making me feel like it matters.

@Myhsa, you totally belong on this thread, you are the victim of an abusive controlling toxic parent, please don't be in any doubt about that
you have been treated appallingly, you deserve much better

@Myhsa
I'm seeing your mother as a kind of vampire, she feeds off of you, that's why she keeps you so close to her.

Mhysa that little child inside you who needed a reliable Mum will stand up and defend her to the bitter end. Children need good parents to make them feel safe in what is a dangerous world. If there isn’t one there they imagine one. They keep taking on more and more bad behaviour from the parent as being okay because their need to feel safe far outstrips their need to be treated properly.

Your mother did not meet your needs. Maybe she met your physical needs reasonably well but she did not meet your emotional needs. Those needs are incredibly strong as we are social animals who constantly try to make sense of this world around us and our emotions are one of the tools (the main tools if they are working right) we use to do that.

At the moment you are rationalising what happened to you. Rationalisation is one of the most common forms of denial people use to protect themselves from difficult realities. So you make all these rational allowances for your mother and do not account for the felt experiences of a very, very emotionally neglected child.

You can still love your mother, you can make allowances for her difficulties but you have had a traumatic childhood and for your own sake recovery from that needs to be a key priority.

Myhsa, from what you say I think your mother has worked to make sure that you are unable to form friendships, she didn't want the competition she wanted you all to herself so that she could lean on you where is she felt like it.
This may not be completely conscious/deliberate, but this is what she has done, in her mind she is allowed to do whatever she wants and take whatever she wants from you because of her illness.
this is grossly unfair, yes she deserves treatment and consideration for her illness but it is not right to exploit you, to damage you just to prop her up.

Ulterego Keeping your hair from childhood to curse you - I'm lost for words, that's completely insane and must have been terrifying as a child.

Lettherightonein3
My dad certainly doesn't respect boundaries. I'll have to refuse and hope they listen because bil doesn't really know my parents and wants some time to see his nephew. Will no doubt get silent treatment/ sulking or emotional blackmail from my dad.
Like SingingLily said about obsessing about the tiniest look, word, gesture, I do that all the time. I play it back in my head trying to think what the look meant or why they said that etc. I will play conversations back in my head and try to think how or what I could have said differently. Then I'll ask myself why did I say that, I should have said this instead. I'm also very curious what people are thinking, when my DH is quiet I always ask what you thinking.

Herocomplex
concocted stories around people’s behaviour, usually to denigrate them, and I learned to do it as well
My dad will do something like this, he will take something minor someone said and take its meaning an unforgiveable. He tried to cause a massive rift between me and one of my inlaws over something very minor they said. My dad thought what they said was unforgivable and means I should never speak to them again, never allow them in my house and never allow them to see my dc. All over something they said. He has done this so often throughout my life I second guess the meaning behind what people say and do all the time. I will obsess for ages sometimes over things people say and what they meant by it.

Chocrichtea
That's sounds awful and yes very dysfunctional. No wonder you are anxious, have depression, and have difficulty making decisions.
I have also spent alot of my life trying to seek validation from my parents. It's very tirying and draining. I know all about silent treatment/ sulking as a way to try to get you to cave in. Don't give in! Let them sulk!

Herocomplex
We are all desperate to be loved and wanted and cherished by our parents, we see them as the people who should love and care for us more than anyone else. So we tell ourselves stories about how it’s not that bad, and maybe if we just try harder it will be different.
This sums it up perfectly

MhysaMhysa
It sounds like you definitely belong here. Your emotional needs were not met and she was very abusing and controlling. Exactly what Lazydaisies said about understanding why your mother was abusive does not alter how much you felt the abuse or how much it damaged you. And what Ulterego said about deliberately preventing you from forming friendships it's left you isolated and more dependent on her.

Lazydaisies
What you said about You are looking to come to a place where you love them as all children need to do and the conflicting emotions rings very true for me.

when I was somewhere between 6 and 10 she cut all my long hair off, someone I admired had a nice short haircut and I asked my mother if I could have the same, I didn't really understand that this girl had been to the hairdresser and that my mother would not be able to reproduce the hairdressers haircut
my mother did not explain this to me she just lopped all my hair off, I was extremely upset because I didn't look nice or attractive like this girl did.
She wasn't sympathetic she just laughed at me, but she kept the hair in a ponytail, carefully wrapped in a piece of silk cloth, to commemorate the loss of my crowning glory, my stupid mistake ....'well you asked for it you can learn the hard way'
Things like this work by training the child's unconscious mind, the implicit message is 'I have captured the essence of you and I now own and control you'
I appreciate this may sound like a bit of an 'out there' interpretation of things and it is only recently that I have started to join the dots and see things in this way

My mother was extremely proud of her own hair and very controlling when it came to my hair and my appearance in general, she saw herself as a femme fatale and she worked so make sure that I couldn't compete with her in this area.

Ulterego that's so awful, what a cruel thing to do to a child. And then to keep it wrapped in silk sounds completely insane.
Sounds like the classic narcassitic mother who is threatened by their daughters appearance and tries to control and sabotage it.

My mother was extremely proud of her own hair and very controlling when it came to my hair and my appearance in general, she saw herself as a femme fatale and she worked so make sure that I couldn't compete with her in this area

Ulter there are no words. That is so wrong.

Panda the fact there there will always be conflicting emotions was such an epiphany for me.

I was cycling though feeling angry and then triggering a good memory then feeling so sad and then wondering had I misjudged the situation completely and actually no it was me that was the problem and on and on the cycle continued. Then bam one day I realised I could hold all of these feelings together and the cycling through stopped. I feel sad, I feel angry, I know they did wrong, I know they did right. I am grieving but I know that overall I am damaged hugely by my upbringing and I need to protect myself from the people who caused that damage and have done literally nothing to put it right. It is a harsh reality, not one I wanted but it is what it is.

Ulterego
Someone I know told me their narcassitic mother dressed them in scruffy rags and gave them terrible hair cuts to try to make them look ugly. It's such a terrible thing to do to your child

You dared to express a desire so she punished you. Can’t have you thinking for yourself.
Abusive.

I am damaged hugely by my upbringing and I need to protect myself from the people who caused that damage and have done literally nothing to put it right
This is really good, a mantra for when you doubt yourself, it sums up everything.

In my case I think yes the homemade haircut was a punishment for wanting to look nice.
It took me decades to realise that she was jealous of me and threatened by me, in my mind how could anyone as powerful as her ever feel threatened by a wretch like me?
Still, I instinctively ejected her from my life some time ago well before I realised all this so it's reassuring to know that my self protective instincts do work to some extent.
The greater part of the damage was done by sexual abuse at a very young age preschool age, she was apoplectic with rage when I dared to complain about that as an adult
1000 little cuts until you are just one big scar.
We are all scarred in some way, I am strong now, knowledge is power.

Lazydaisies
I have the cycling though feeling angry and then triggering a good memory then feeling so sad and then wondering had I misjudged the situation completely alot. Definitely get the mix of emotions of I feel sad, I feel angry, I know they did wrong, I know they did right.

And what Herocomplex said about being desperate to be loved and wanted and cherished by our parents. So we tell ourselves stories about how it’s not that bad.
Makes you ask questions like was it as bad as I remember. It could have been worse. Maybe it will be different this time. Maybe if I had done something different it would have been different

Ulterego I'm so sorry, there are no words. Your mam failed to protect you on a fundamental level. And getting outraged when you dared bring it up to her. They don't like being shown evidence of how they aren't/ weren't good parents do they.

Very true about the 1000 cuts making a big scar

thank you Panda
thanks everyone on the thread for your virtual ears and shoulders
I'm all out of words for now!

@Lazydaisies thank you i've seen a few recommendations for toxic parents so think i will give this a read. I think i need to do work alone and in therapy. I had an excellent therapist last time, me and her clicked so i hope I can get her again.
Thank you @Herocomplex

Yesterday i received a phone call from my dad while me and DS were out. He is always the one to call when me and my mum has fallen out. Wanted to know if i wanted to go out with them. I know its because they wanted to see my DS and not for me. I replied back politely that we were out atm so wouldnt be able to. He has completely ignored me. I know he has seen it though as Dsis said he had mentioned it to her. So yet again because im not doing what they want when they want i'm getting the silent treatment.
I got really anxious they would just turn up at my house and I think i had a panic attack. I had a headache and my chest hurt. I went all dizzy and felt weird and panicky. Felt sick and had a bad tummy. It passed in 10 mins. But i felt really anxious all night.

@MhysaMhysa you do belong on this thread

Yes choc that’s a panic attack. You know now that what’s happening isn’t right. Remember they are just people, like you. You’ve built them up as all powerful. They’re not. What they say and do is just nonsense, not even worth listening to. You’ve seen through it. Breathe.

Really struggling today with guilt and anxiety. Mainly over the dcs asking for my mother who I am not in contact with at the moment. I have ignored calls. I just need a break but I probably don't cope well with low contact as I feel she is always angry and ready to start the drama again. My father doesnt make me feel welcome at home as they said I am the cause of the friction. Everything was ok when I walked on eggshells around her for years and cried on the way home with her constant put downs. Then another part of me says she was never educated or shown much affection so it's hard for her to sho ws it to me 😪

Chilled can I ask you to explain why you feel guilty. The reason I ask is because literally none of this is your fault. The guilt is not yours. I had to do a very long homework session for my counsellor where I explained to her why I felt so guilty. She made me write it out as a journal article. By the end of it I could literally come up with nothing about this situation that I bore a responsibility in. Instead I was taking on the responsibility of others guilt as my own. It might be worth going through that yourself to see if there is anything you really should be feeling guilty about, something you are responsible for, then if there actually is and I suspect not, you can try to put it right.

Choc definitely a panic attack. A book on anxiety might help too. I had a really rubbish one so I won’t recommend it but I am sure there are good ones out there.

Thank You lazy. I think I have always tried to be the "good girl' and she likes to see herself as the life and soul whereas I am boring in her eyes. My father was always my best friend and told me to go as far away as I could from home when I went to uni. But then he begged for me to come home. Since then she has a lot to say about my life. I know that is normal but If I go away she takes a fall or some kind of attack and doesn't and how the holiday was just loads all of her problems on me (most of these are created by her). She has interest in me and never has. She told me she wanted to commit suicide over me and said her councellor told her to read out a letter she write with all my faults. I don't believe a councellor would be allowed to do that. She expects me to work full time with two dc and then drive miles and miles to her of an evening when there's homework and my own work to do.
I feel guilty because no one would expect me to disappear off the scene.

Then another part of me says she was never educated or shown much affection so it's hard for her to sho ws it to me

Neither was my mother, Chilledout11, and that might have been a reasonable excuse but for three things. The first is that her sisters - my aunts - had the same hard upbringing but managed to put it behind them and become loving and caring mothers. Why were they able to do that and not her?

The second is that she only inflicted a miserable childhood on two of her four children. One of them, my lovely DSis, won first prize in the scapegoat lottery while she was still in the womb. I was 16 when M was carrying her and I know this to be true from the things she said and did. My DSis never stood a chance.

And the third is that, having had an appalling childhood at the hands of M (with my weak father enabling the whole thing), my lovely DSis put her upbringing behind her and tries her hardest to raise her two little girls with love. Just as my aunts did.

What I'm trying to say, Chilled, is that my mother had a choice - just as my DSis and my aunts did. She chose to take out her rage and anger on her defenceless children.

It's a choice. It's always a choice. You had that same choice and I'm betting that you are absolutely determined that your children will have the best life you can give them with plenty of warmth and cuddles and support and encouragement.

So don't feel sorry for her.

You very kind to take the time to reply to me. I appreciate it so much

She will wonder where it has all come from- she rang dh to ask what had they done. Luckily he is very wise and said nothing she's just busy. I think a lot was left unsaid and now I just can't go on pretending anymore. But she hasn't been as bad in the past few months. No getting into rages. Just crying. But then five mins later snide comments about how such and such daughter is so good to their mother. How I am spoilt by dh (I'm not - we share a lot of work but I do the bulk and he hasn't cooked for s decade. He will do washing etc and she calls this spoiling). If I do well at work she says are you still there? No interest in me. Obsessed with grandchildren.

Hi there, this is my first visit to the Stately Home; it looks like a great place to get advice and support (whilst not somewhere you would wish to find yourself huh?!).
So a bit of background, I’m 40, married (happily) for 16 years with 2 kids – DD aged 12 and DS aged 9. My parents split when I was 5 and I acquired a stepfather (the same day as my Dad moved out, infact, so a quick turnaround there!). We have never got on, he is an aggressive and confrontational man who quite frankly terrified me at times when I was a kid. There were 1 or 2 episodes of actual physical violence but mostly it was emotional abuse (I feel silly writing that but I think it was) I always thought he was the ‘bad’ one and my mum was the ‘good’ one but when my daughter was born it dawned on me that my mother had allowed all this to happen, which was a bit of a head fuck. I believe that he has narcissistic personality disorder; he literally ticks every box. To summarise it usually goes like this; they (usually him) do something unacceptable, they are challenged, they deny it/twist the facts then make out that you are being manipulative and sly (the irony of it!) and become furious, dishing out OTT punishments/put massive guilt trip on you about how they are feeling as a result of your actions etc etc. Sounds familiar to a lot of you I imagine!
The last decade almost we have been low contact, not really any calls or texts, they have kids after School 2 nights a week, I arrive at half 6 and leave their house at 7. So an hour in total, for me, per week, with longer for the kids. This all stems from an incident in 2010 when I was really ill with PND and ended up hospitalized in a mother and baby unit for 4 months with DS (I have had a lot of anxiety/depression problems over the years but mostly keep it together but when I go I go big time unfortunately). Anyhow, when this happened they were on holiday in France and my husband rang them to tell them. My mother was drunk (they are slightly drunk most nights so far as I am aware, not massive benders but a couple of glasses of wine and a spirit or two, sometimes they are mortal drunk) and she asked him if they should come back to the UK. He told her that there was no one to help with the kids (his family are over in Ireland). Later that evening she rang our house and spoke to my friend who reiterated that someone needed to do something as she had kids of her own she needed to look after. Anyways, they didn’t come back, then when they were criticized by people (not me) they blamed my husband, said he never told them how serious it was etc etc and when he called them out over it they argued and fell out and that was that. I sent an email telling them how hurt I was and received a pretty unpleasant one back (which, incidentally, included how they always took me on holidays to Devon)
But back to now; they have had the kids up at their caravan from Mon to Fri the last 3 weeks; I cannot fault them in terms of helping me out in this department, and up till now I have been keeping as close an eye as possible on how he is behaving towards the kids and its been ok. Lately though, as the kids are getting older there have been a few incidents where they have complained about their grandparents, nothing major but little niggly things. Then on Friday I picked them up and they told me, on the way home, that the night before my Mother had said to another couple ‘they get really spoilt up here, it’s a shame their Dad is a little shit’. The kids, particulary DD, were annoyed/upset about it. I didn’t know whether to tell him; if I did then would he do anything? And if I didn’t then it was like keeping a secret. Anyways, I told him and he consequently sent a politely worded text to my Mother (I told him not too as I knew what would happen) saying would they please refrain from calling him names infront of his kids. He deliberately sent a very plain message so it couldn’t be twisted or perceived as threatening. I then got this same message sent back to me, twice, by my Mother, followed up by another saying its not true and that she will not be treated this way by him or my DD. I pointed out that DS was also present and quoted exactly what was said, word for word, also saying that I wanted no part in it and didn’t want any drama. This was followed by a message from stepfather, twisting what the kids heard and saying that he ‘awaits an apology’ ‘from your husband’. Its likely that they were prob a bit pissed and cant remember it clearly. So now we have reached another flash point and I am tired of it all. I was meant to be popping in with the kids today (as felt obliged as they were returning home to get the car serviced) but they have both text me individually saying they are no longer returning home from their caravan, she is just going to stay up there. No kisses on message (to show disapproval). I just text them both ‘Ok x’ and left it at that. No response. So where do we go from here? It starting to affect the kids now and I don't want them receiving the same crap I had to put up with now they are getting to an age where their behaviour will be challenging in different ways (teenage years and all that entails!) Apologies for long message, has anyone been in similar situation and how did it pan out as the kids got older? x