"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

**'but I'm your mother' or 'by virtue of your very existence you owe me a debt that can never be repaid and so you shall be beholden to me for all eternity'
Yes I’m pretty sure mine believes this
“after everything I’ve done for you”!
Which I can only think means the 5 year career gap she took when I was born, and just general duties expected of any parent.

I think that they were programmed to be unquestioningly loyal to their parents and they expect the same because...well I dont imagine they have a rational justification it's just what they feel entitled to.

People can live on for a loooong time these days, anyone with controlling elders needs to know that they are only going to get worse and this could be a bitter fight that sucks the life out of you.
I dumped my mother years ago when I saw warning signs that she wanted to destroy me and hoped that I would die before her.
Now the other one is shaping up to be just as mean:(

Ulterego I'm so sorry, that's truly awful that a mother could be that malicious to their own child .
Your right, they definitely feel entitled to it. And with people living so long toxic family members will just slowly suck the life out of you. My dad was definitely conditioned probably with violence to obey his father so no doubt that's why he expects it in return.

Just great, I just got a text from my dad saying they are coming next Sunday and have booked a hotel for next Sunday night at a hotel near me. Of course they didn't check with me first. Me and dh had already arranged for his brother to visit on Sunday. Not looking forward to the shit I'll get about it from my dad. Emotional blackmail or sulking most likely

Name change fail by me, full of flu and my brain isn't fully with me today.

Last few posts under the name of Panda98.
And I had told my mum my bil was visiting next Sunday before my dad tells me they are coming. I think it's on purpose to try to make us cancel on bil. They always seem upset when my DH's family visit our son. My dad has just told me he can't cancel it as he has already paid for the hotel when I told him bil is visiting on that day.

AttilaTheMeerkats advice was ringing in my ears I have to say.

You can’t engage with a narcissist. There is no resolution.

Don’t go looking for sense or reason where there is none.

Don't go looking for sense or Reason when there is none
Indeed!
although it could be said that the reason is 'because that's what the narcissist wants and they are the most important person'

Thank you @Panda it's all those weird inexplicable little attacks that you explain away and then when you join the dots...
she is rather witchy and believed (or wanted us to believe) that she had the ability to curse people, and I know that she has kept artefacts from my childhood, all my hair from when I had it cut off, teeth excetera I'm sure she feels that these give her power over people.
She was hinting I was cursed and would die before I reached 50

Bloody hell ulter that’s just extraordinary. How horrible. She sounds really difficult to deal with.

A very volatile and intimidating woman but that was her undoing, in order to be really dangerous you need to be able to control your impulses and act strategically.
I'm sorry mum it was always going to end like this, I had no choice but to save myself.

@PandaAtTheZoo - yes DF opted out not by saying "I think I'll just watch" or going off to do something else. He just sat there. He 'appeared' ok with it, but I am sure he was all pass agg inside. I am much less bothered by it than I was thanks to lots of self-work, but part of me reverts to the child peacekeeper.

Sorry to hear yr parents are coming anyway. Can you refuse as BIL is coming or will they all come together? Shows such lack of boundaries/respect for yr boundaries. Feel for you.

@Ulterego - wow, trying to control by cursing - how horrific. Having DC now I can see how frightening they'd find it, really feel for the child you in particular.

Does anyone else spend lots of time trying to 'mind read'? My therapist keeps pointing out when I am doing it with all ppl, not just DP. I think I have felt it was helping me to be empathetic, but actually I think I am filling my head with loads of potentially views/thoughts that might not be the truth. Which isn't helping me and I become anxious about some of the things I think are happening.

Somebody in work this week said something about "I cannot read minds, don't try" and it really made me think that I need to stop.

I am sure it was linked to DFs inconsistent anger - I was always trying to be one step ahead. Just wondered if this rings true for others?

Does anyone else spend lots of time trying to 'mind read'?

I do, Lettherightonein3, all the time. I'm very sensitive to how other people might be feeling and can obsess about the tiniest look, word, gesture. I then proceed to tie myself up in knots about it when quite often that shake of the head, that momentary frown, is nothing to do with me at all but to do with whatever is going on inside their own heads.

When we spend our whole lives from childhood being expected to manage our parents' moods by walking on eggshells and consequently second-guessing everything we say or do in order not to be the convenient excuse for a tantrum, it's hard to overcome that feeling of being responsible for the entire world's mental health. It's exhausting.

Others on here suggest using a strong phrase, either out loud or inside your head, to shut down repetitive thinking - and that horrible nagging little internalised voice gifted to us by our parents - and drown it out. Mine is unprintable

Oh goodness this thread is so cathartic. I can’t even use the word to describe our relationship - womb donor or DS’s maternal grandmother are how i describe her, not the M word. Evil, evil woman.

Just wanted to say though to all those posters who rightly say they can’t wait for the toxic parent to die -,it’s not as easy as that. Mine did but it took years for me emotionally to process it. Some deeply buried part of me had always hoped, I think, that she’d see the error of her ways and apologise and we could have a proper relationship. Then when she died, that was the end of all hope and it knocked me emotionally for years. And I felt guilt - I know now, long years after she died, that that is nonsense, but goodness it was real at the time. Be prepared for that.

Morning Every one. I got directed to this thread from my thread to gather advice and resources. I'm 7 days into the silent treatment from my mum. Always knew her behaviour werent normal or my dad's actually. Last time she did this to me I was so vulnerable and beside myself that I caved in. This time however I've realised she's a nasty narcissist and I've realised the dynamic within my family. Enabler (dad), golden child (me when I was younger) scapegoat (dsis). She is the biggest emotional abuser and I think I've been in the FOG. I'm anxious,have depression, feel like I always need validation from my parents, not good at decision making as they have forced theirs on me, over think everything, been in abusive relationships myself and think I am also co dependant.
I was smacked hard when I was young for things I don't feel like needed a huge smack. I was petrified of my parents tempers. My mum would try control me and Dsis by telling us what to wear and if we put up resistance then she would bully us and say how awful we looked and a scruff until we changed. Numerous times I was told not to say anything to anyone about their behaviour as it's no one else business but ours. Not long ago when I got pregnant my dad went mental and I ended up calling the police on him as he scared me so much. He did get arrested. I've witnessed my dad strangling my mum when I was about 8. Never been so scared. God there's so much more and writing all this down has made me see even more how dysfunctional it has all been.
So any advice and resources to help me be strong and stay NC and how to move on from the damage?

Chocrichtea that sounds absolutely awful and very dysfunctional and damaging for you. I found that I had to treat it like a deep bereavement and just go with the huge emotions that arose. I needed counselling and I needed to understand, so do a lot of reading to figure out what had gone so wrong. I’ve found Susan Forward Toxic Parents and Running on Empty really good books and they might be helpful for you too. It does get better. Lots better but for now you are in the eye of the storm.

Yes, I’m a superb second-guesser. My parents did it all the time, concocted stories around people’s behaviour, usually to denigrate them, and I learned to do it as well.
My DH points it out to me when I do it, which is helpful.

When I was a child I would be punished mostly by being scolded and shamed for things which I didnt really understand, so I was always alert for the danger. My parents were always angry about something so I would make myself as small as possible.

Concentrate on your own feelings, check in with how you feel. Observe how others are feeling, but it’s not your job to manage it for them. I tend to make people laugh when I can’t handle a situation, but I’m trying to get away from that.

Something I saw on Twitter - strict parents don’t make you behave well, they make you good at listening for footsteps, and a creative and quick liar.

Thank you. Also another thing do you minimise? In my head at the moment I keep thinking surely it's not that bad. But then i think why do I feel like this if it wasn't. Then just seeing it wrote down I can clearly see it was that bad!
I know I need therapy but it's a bit hard to find when as in a single parent who works. My mum has looked after my son before but obviously that's not the case now.

Yes chocrichtea I think we all do. We are all desperate to be loved and wanted and cherished by our parents, we see them as the people who should love and care for us more than anyone else. So we tell ourselves stories about how it’s not that bad, and maybe if we just try harder it will be different.

It’s is bad. They are wrong. You deserve more, much more.
There is so much love and support here, everyone believes you. 💐

Chocrichtea start with reading so. I found that most of the work to be done was “my work” so counselling while it has really helped has been secondary to reading for me.

You are not looking to come to a place where you only hate your parents and only see the wrong in them.

You are looking to come to a place where you love them as all children need to do for their survival, you know you needed them, you realise they were not there for you when you needed them, you recognise they damaged you, you put that damage right for managing other relationships, you accept that nothing can put right from the wrong they have caused (if that is indeed the case for you and this is by far the hardest part to decide) and you accept this is the way things are. Knowing it is ok to hold all sorts of conflicting emotions together helps because then you don’t have to just think of them as the bad guy which is nearly impossible for a child to do about their parents.

Reading the books recommended, they’re in the library, or you can download them quite cheaply, is useful. Writing things down is very useful.

The most important thing though is to learn about boundaries. They are things you hold in place NO MATTER WHAT.
Think about what you need to feel safe and keep it in mind. For example you don’t want someone to come to your house, you can tell them you’ll meet them somewhere else. If they argue you can be very firm because it’s your boundary. You can say ‘no, that’s not going to work for me’
Don’t need a sorry.
Decide what you want. Decide what’s going to happen. Check back in here if you’re struggling.

A part of me feels like I don't belong on this thread, but I empathise so much with things pp are saying, it's quite scary.

My mum isn't intentionally abusive, I don't think. She has bipolar and even when stable, is unbelievably manipulative, controlling and everything is about her. She uses emotional blackmail. She uses me to offload her problems, daily. Then when I do something she disapproves of, drops me like a hat. If I try to talk about it, she's too ill to handle it and I'm giving her a headache. She has never apologised to me in my life.

When I was young it was incredibly difficult. When I 'misbehaved' she used to threaten to adopt me. On more than one occasion she drove me to my fathers house (they split and I hardly seen him), calling me names and telling me she would leave me there. At 11, she blamed me for her being hospitalised and every time since, although I'm the one who looks after her when she is. I am always stepping on eggshells, trying not to stress her.

She refuses to acknowledge that living with someone who has bipolar takes its toll. Seeing your mum have hallucinations, screaming scary things, saying hurtful things, harming herself, has an affect on their children too. And for all her misgivings now, it's an excuse to behave how she wants and control those around her.

I am constantly seeking her validation and approval and if I don't it causes me a lot of stress and anxiety. She's giving me the silent treatment now, because I dyed the tips of my DDs hair. The last time she didn't speak to me for 6months at a time I really needed someone.

It was violent a few times, but never bad.

It's confusing to write this and my thoughts are jumbled up, but I'm going to post now anyway before I delete it all, I'm not allowed to tell anyone my mum has a MH issue, so I don't speak about any of this in rl, maybe it will help just to type it.

Mhysa understanding why your mother was abusive does not alter how that abuse felt to a small child and how you were damaged by her. You can have compassion for your mother (although for the moment I suggest you have far too much compassion for her and not enough for yourself) all while recognising and recovering from the trauma of your childhood.

Your circumstances absolutely belong on here.

Myhsa is your mum getting treatment? Is she cooperating with it?
Living with people with mental illness has an incredible impact on your own wellbeing. Her stuff is dialled right up to 10, your dial is on close to 0 from what you’re saying. Have you got things you like doing that are nothing to do with your DM? There are some groups on the Mind website where you can chat to people who are dealing with situations like yours, there’s lots of helpful stuff on that site.
You do belong here, you didn’t get what you needed or need.

lazydaisies Your post has made me well up.

When I think about problems I have/had with my mum, the word abuse doesn't enter my mind, even when I typed that. I love her as much as I can love and she does me. I've had a very fucked up life and whilst my mother would blame my absent father, I know a lot of my problems came from her. If I told her my childhood was traumatic, she would never forgive me.

Thank you for your response, it makes sense and means so much just to be heard