"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I felt like I was under attack when I was dealing with text messages. That is the PTSD but well since they gave me the PTSD........

No contact means no anxiety for me. The pain of losing a family is awful but if you can learn to sit with it life can continue on. Learning to deal with the suffering is key.

When you say that lazy it sounds like a lose/lose situation I agree. But at the very least we’ve made a stand and there is dignity in life now for us.

@Herocomplex this is so true for me too:
"Someone once said to me that I was trying so hard to make things ok for everyone else because I couldn’t make things ok for me."

@PandaAtTheZoo - so many similarities in your experiences to mine. I am chief peacekeeper too. I honestly see it as my role. Recently DF opted out (not in normal way of course) of something the rest of us were doing, and the child part of me wanted him to be ok/feel ok. I did at least recognise this in myself and didn't do anything - he is a grown man, if he opts out that is his decision.

@Herocomplex (sorry going through the thread) hope you are feeling better today? I started again with a journal this week. My therapist has been encouraging me to do it for ages...

All I am doing is just writing down my thoughts at the start of the day. I am trying to not be too perfectionist about it. Was listening to a Dr Rangan Chatterjee podcast and he/his guest were just saying it is just writing thoughts down - ie try not to see it as anything more complicated. Not sure if that helps, sounds like you know it is meant_ to be done, maybe that is stopping you from just writing.

When you say that lazy it sounds like a lose/lose

True Hero there are no winners in family estrangement except, in my case anyway, my sanity. Otherwise I would have to be dragged down by their rampant dysfunction. It is worth every bit.

Exactly Lazy exactly. And I’m very cautious about who I talk to, even some close friends know nothing in order to protect the ‘sanity’. Because, as you say, it is so awful people think you should try to fix it. Just hold on to the knowledge that you’ve fixed it for yourself and that’s what matters most.

Thank you Lettherightone yes, thank you. I think seeing things written down is so powerful, I’m afraid of it a bit. I tend to keep a tight rein on things.

Hahaha, shit.
Standard playbook stuff here today.
The text yesterday was the softener. This morning messages on my voicemail to say my DM will keep calling until I speak to them. So I called.
I repeated that I didn’t think it was a good idea for us to talk, and that we all needed space.
I could hear my DF in the background saying ‘how do you think this is going to help’
She was so stuck in feeling sorry for herself, kept demanding that I explain things, repeating herself. I stuck to my script - not good to be talking now, it’s not helpful as we’re all too upset. She completely couldn’t understand what I was saying. Started to bring up all the ‘stuff’. I said ok, talk, I’ll listen. Off she went, my DF again to her ‘what are you trying to do?’
Until she said that I owed them respect.
That finished me off. I said I owed them nothing, my priority is myself. I didn’t start this, I don’t want it. I repeated that it was a bad idea to be having this conversation.
She said she knew my intention was to cut them out. So I said yes, now it is.
So she hung up.

I texted my DF and said ‘that was ridiculous and exactly why we shouldn’t be talking’

It’s like a bloody Narcissists Handbook was given out. Luckily thanks to you absolute LEGENDS on here I’ve read it too.

And breathe.

My DH was sent a meme this morning Hero “I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this to you”. It seems appropriate for what you are getting from them.

Ha! I saw that meme the other day! It’s so appropriate.

@Herocomplex
That sounds like a painful and infuriating phone call😖
how are you feeling now?
It's as if her belief that she is owed unconditional respect it's so powerful that it dominates everything
she hasn't received what she feels entitled to and she cares about nothing else but getting what she feels entitled to

It took a lot to make the call. I’m pretty high on adrenaline, I have to say. My DH was sitting nearby and he said I did well. I’m so completely enraged though, inside.
It’s the lack of boundaries that angers me the most, no one else matters. Shes looking for resolution but she doesn’t know how to do it.
If she’d said ‘I feel so dreadful about what’s happening’ or ‘I’m so worried I’m losing you’ I might have paused. But she has no idea that’s how it works.

Until she said that I owed them respect.

And that, in my mother's book, clinches it. It's the argument of last resort, exactly the same one she uses when all else fails. That tells me, Hero, that you played a blinder and left her with nowhere to go.

and anything else that will help you today.

Thank you, that means a lot Singing (my eyes filled with tears actually)
A cup of tea now. Then a walk. And a hug from my DH.

Hero it is pure torture going back and back to that dry well.

They don’t see it. They don’t understand it. They think that normal relationships can resume with normal interactions possible but they simply cannot do that level of intimacy in a relationship and they don’t even know it is missing. I am so sorry for you it is pure torture when you are the person who gets it and they just cannot.

They’re not remotely understanding of what’s going on. But as lazysays it’s not my job to do the work.

It’s so wrong that we have to feel fear and trepidation when it comes to phone calls with our own parents
I spoke to dm for the first time in a year last week and I admit I rang when I was angry and I tore shreds off her. She still couldn’t answer any of my questions as I think deep down she knows she doesn’t have a leg to stand on. I gave her an ultimatum a year ago, either get help or you’re out of my life. End of , balls in her court , like you said it’s not our job to do the work.

I read what you write Comps, and anyone who doesn’t understand would think you were being tough, but I know how incredibly hard it is to stand firm and keep it together. Those calls are harrowing. 💐

Trouble is there’s no chance I get to speak to her when she’s sober
She’s either at work or she’s drunk
It’s like beating my head off a brick wall
She slurringing told me she hadn’t had a drink for months when I spoke to her. It’s like trying to argue that black is white.
Yes a lot of people would think I was being unreasonable but I’m absolutely done with being reasonable when it comes to her. You just can’t help someone who won’t help themselves

You’re helping the most important person, you are absolutely have every right to do that. You’ve made it clear what you need and what you deserve. It’s not much to ask, but it takes a lot of courage. X

Yes a lot of people would think I was being unreasonable but I’m absolutely done with being reasonable when it comes to her

Comps I am paraphrasing something I read somewhere but it basically said that if you tell someone the awful truth of your dysfunctional family and they respond by dismissing your experiences then you can be absolutely certain they have had a dysfunctional upbringing too. Functional people recognise dysfunction. Dysfunctional people often cannot.

Well done @Herocomplex sounds like you handled it well.

@Comps83 you did the right thing. Sorry if I have missed yr back story but has she ever had a sober period?

Shes looking for resolution but she doesn’t know how to do it
I'm guessing that in her mind it is imperative that she is above you, therefore the only resolution that is acceptable to her is that you back down and pay her the respect the feels she is due.
Imo 'you owe me respect' is another way of saying 'but I'm your mother' or 'by virtue of your very existence you owe me a debt that can never be repaid and so you shall be beholden to me for all eternity'

yeah, fuck that shit and jog on you pair of bastards, I've been your fool all my fucking life, it ends now

@Lettherightonein3 not really . It started when I was about 13 I think , I’m now 36. Tbh I don’t remember what she was like before it started.
There have been times when it has been worse but not where it’s stopped all together
I’ve had ppl tell me she can’t be an alcoholic as she doesn’t drink every day and can hold down a job. But I think if you’ve lost everyone you ever had due to drink and you hide it so you can drink it in secret then you’re an alcoholic. I know it’s an illness but she has made no attempt to get help, won’t even admit she has a problem

Lettherightonein3
When you say your DF opted out (not in normal way of course) of something the rest of you were doing. Let me guess was it by sulking or having a tantrum?

Good advice from Ulterego
You can resign from the role of peacekeeper if you so choose

Herocomplex
Until she said that I owed them respect
That's the exact think my dad would say/ thinks. Parents like that think that just because they are parents their children owe them unconditional obedience and respect. No effort from the parents is required. The children's disobedience is a sign of disrespect that won't be tolerated

Ulterego hit the nail on the head they think that
by virtue of your very existence you owe me a debt that can never be repaid and so you shall be beholden to me for all eternity