"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Panda, thank you for the flowers 😊
is your father explicit about his expectations or is it all implied, if my father actually said to me that he believes children should be seen and not heard I would now respond 'watch your step grandad, old people can be not heard and not seen'
with my father because he is so mild mannered and never loses his temper I always thought he was a nice person, but then I started to join the dots and wake up

Panda Singing has totally hit the nail on the head. So many people locked into dysfunctional relationships spend so much of their energy trying to put it right. It cannot be right unless equal energy is going in from those who caused the dysfunction and this rarely happens.

Ulterego
Some of it is implied I think. He talks about his own dad in a very positive light, talking about the things he did. But his own dad emotional neglected his own children alot, thought they should be seen and not heard and obey completely. My dad will say something like the "good old days when children were seen and not heard".
Some things he does is explicit, saying I will disown you and never speak to you again if you do such and such. The most vivid in my mind and one that was repeated often was if I ever dated a black man he would disown me, my dad is a very vile man when I think about it. Which is quite upsetting when I think about how awful his beliefs are. Then there is the sulking and tantrums if he doesn't get his way. And over very trivial things like if we order a pizza and he doesn't get the topping he wants he will say "I never get what I want" and storm off into his office and sulk like a child.

Lazydaisies yes I think its a bit like the Greek mythology with the man rolling an immense boulder up a hill only for it to roll down when it nears the top, repeating this action for eternity. A complete waste of energy and time and very tirying. Your right it rarely happens you get any equal energy or acknowledgement from those who caused the dysfunction.

I hope it's ok to post here, as a new person. I'm not even sure what made me click on the thread today but reading it made me realise that something is wrong.

My question at the moment is has anyone just waited for the abusive parent to die (G_d that sounds terrible).

After my parents divorced my mother became horrifically abusive, violent, emotionally and verbally. She didn't expect the life she ended up having (was her parents Princess and epically pandered to) and took that out on me. And my sister to a degree. My brother is the golden child. I started to break free at university but always got dragged back in. I'm now married with kids and very careful as to how I parent, no raised voices, no violence, gentle, loving parenting. And very carefully manage any time she spends with her grandchildren, but she seems to love them. However she has cancer, is terminal - anything up to 6 years.

Her behaviour is terrible again, she recently called me a liar, a bad mother and 101 other things. I don't want to see her, DH doesn't want to see her. I'm just getting over PND and she has been a massive factorin my mental health issues over the years. But i don't know what to do given she's dying. I feel like I should feel differently, but 8 don't and I'm worried that makes me an awful person.

Coldofhands Hi, I'm also new here. I just posted a few days ago. I had heard about this thread and decided to post because I realised there is something wrong with the relationship between me and my parents. I'm not very good at giving advice and others better at giving advice will be along soon.

I don't think it makes you an awful person after how awfully you were treated as a child. You certainly deserved better. Ask yourself what do you want to do and what would make your life better for you and your DC?

Coldofhands, I'm glad you found your way to this thread. What you went through - and are going through even now - certainly sounds like emotional abuse. There are no visible scars that you can point to as tangible evidence of what happened, but there are scars nonetheless and you are still dealing with the consequences. Your mother should have nurtured you and protected you when you were a defenceless child but she didn't, so it's not at all surprising that you have no trust or confidence in her now. Nor is it surprising that you have suffered MH issues over the years. I am so sorry for that, but glad to hear that you feel that you are beginning to get through your PND. The last thing you need now is your mother putting in the emotional boot again when you are coping with a recent birth and your own anxiety.

FWIW, I don't think you are an awful person, nor do I think you are the only one waiting for your abusive parent to die. In fact, I know you aren't. When you've spent so much of your life being belittled and screamed at and picked away at and reduced to tears by the one person in the world who is meant to love and support you, how can you possibly be expected to just forget all of that and offer unconditional love in return? I myself feel nothing for my mother. I don't hate her. I just feel nothing. I've shed all the tears she's going to get and there's none left anymore.

Panda asks some good questions. What do you want to do? What would make life better for you and your family? I'd ask a few more. What exactly do you owe the woman who has made your life a misery? Why should you risk your MH and thus your family life for a woman who doesn't value anything you do for her anyway? Cancer, terminal or otherwise, doesn't give her a free pass to double down on her vile behaviour. So here's another question. If she wasn't dying, would she change her ways? Behave better? Stop being so nasty?

Her duty to you, her child, was to raise you, protect you, nurture you and prepare you the best she could for life as an adult. She didn't. Your duty now is to your own children, not to her. You are doing the best to be the kind of mother to them that you never had, and all credit to you. Let's be honest, she was no role model. But part of your duty to your children is to tend to your own emotional and mental wellbeing so that you can give them the best of yourself, and not the torn shreds left over whenever she decides to take lumps out of you.

Don't feel guilty. You have nothing to feel guilty about.

My wife had said she will feel better when her EA father dies. She feels no guilt about this. I think it’s a natural reaction to the very dysfunctional upbringing she had.

if I ever dated a black man he would disown me
if my dad said that to me I'd develop an overwhelming desire to fall deeply in love with a black man...point being why not just call him out, challenge him, if he threatens to disown you say 'bring it on dad, do us both a favour'
what's he gonna do, stop your pocket money?

is has anyone just waited for the abusive parent to die
I will be relieved when they go, I think a weight will be lifted, I look forward to the feeling of freedom

But i don't know what to do given she's dying
she will do everything she can to suck the life out of you, probably with the (not necessarily conscious) aim of finishing you off before she goes.
PROTECT YOURSELF

Ulterego think I have always just tried to keep the peace with my dad for my mums sake. Because he would make her disown me too and make her choose him or me. She would probably choose my dad over me. But now I don't care anymore.I will just do what I want and they are welcome to each other if that's what they choose. My dad will be alone then because his parents have died and he has disowned his brothers over his pettyness, but that's the bed he can lie in.

You can resign from the role of peacekeeper if you so choose 😊

Panda that is so hard. I have had a similar trauma of losing my parents to their fucked up ideals and it has been really hard. It brings up every conflicting emotion under the sun. Going with the emotional fallout and facing up to the heartache is the best and only way though.

Having a struggle today. One of those days when I think maybe I’m deliberately hurting people by not being in touch.
I’ve had a friendly message from a family member and I’ve responded with a ‘shutting down’ response. I’m vulnerable today. I wasn’t going to respond but then I thought I can’t spend all day dreading more texts so just responded with a ‘no thanks’ message.

I can totally relate to dreading getting texts😖
I have a little ritual, when I get one I copy it onto a file on my computer and then I delete it from my phone, I like to keep a dossier of communications so that I can review it if I want to but I don't want it 'contaminating' my phone.
I also tend to wait 24 hours before responding, to avoid getting into any back and forths.

I don't worry about hurting people by not being in touch, the way I see it they're lucky I don't respond with an explosion of expletives 🤬

Thank you ulterego my ‘good girl/family fixer’ personality is in full effect today.
I think having a plan like you have is a good idea.

💐Sorry you are having a tough day, herocomplex. You look after so many on here. Today, it's your day to look after yourself.

Thanks Singing

I just went for a walk, listened to some uplifting music and got some cheap but nice flowers.

You all know. It’s worth more than I can say. Xx

@Herocomplex remember it was them that forced you to take evasive action ; you didn't alienate them, they alienated you.

You’re right acorn. The problem is I try not to think about the situation and all the crap behaviour, live positively. Then the ambush comes and my first response is to fix it. Then I come back on here, breathe, think of some of the ‘stuff’ and pull myself back up.
Thank you, thank you x

It is an ambush, Hero 🙁. Just as you think you are managing to get through the day, swoosh - it comes out of nowhere and hits you hard. I don't know if this helps in any way but I've spoken before about keeping a journal. Well, one section contains the most upsetting memories - stuff I've never even mentioned on here. When the ambush happens, that's the section I read and I get so mad, so angry, that it overrides any desire to try and fix things. It reminds me - in the starkest possible way - why I'm NC and why I'm so much better off.

Yes Singing a journal would be the place.

I’ve done reflective journal work before as part of psychotherapy training (I’m not a psychotherapist!) and I found it very challenging to be honest and not edit enormously. But that was before when I was deeply in the FOG.
Time to try again.

Ah, I had a text from DM about 6 weeks ago. It started innocently enough but ended with one of her trademark put downs (something other people would find harmless but if you know about narcs, you know). I shut her down and not a peep since. Marvellous. She "doesn't know" why I'm not talking to her, which of course she doesn't but even if she did she wouldn't.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the peace and I think this may become the beginning of the end which is sad but there you go.

I used to wince whenever a text would pop up from dm before I blocked her
See. She only ever contacts me when she’s drunk . So if she text at like 11am I knew she’d been drinking since 8am
Like pp said they always started off innocent . Example :
Dm: how’s your new Hoover, it’s good isn’t it ive got the same one ?
Me: yeah it’s great thanks
Dm: your dad hurt me so badly . You’re all on his side. Just ignore me, I’ll just curl up and die somewhere none of you care
Me: ignores
For context , she has been in another relationship for 7 years and this is still how she goes in. Feel sorry for the current fella