"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

They are two halves of the same crappy whole. And you can't separate them
Ain't that the truth
Mine divorced acrimoniously many many moons ago, but they are still united in their desire to make me pay for being born, the more wretched I am the happier they are because that's what I deserve

Absolutely will not seek help for it
Because she wants to have this problem it SERVES her, it allows her to dominate and manipulate people.
Hello and welcome @Comps 😊
we understand your pain and your rage

I have not been in contact with dm for several weeks and now she has contacted me saying there is nothing she can do to make me want to see her but she wants to see our dc. She has text and tried to make contact but I can't face the drama. She doesnt know what's wrong but I am upset and scared of what she will say. I think for several years I let her put me down and my father backs her up. It's not one thing that's caused me to go no contact and I wish I didn't have to.
It's years and years of nipping and ignoring anything I do right but lots of nasty comments. Lots of drama. It's hard to explain. I used to be very close to my father but not this last 8 years. Now he hardly speaks to me. Doesn't even look at me. He went abroad for a while and I know it was to get away from dm and he asked me to visit her more (already visited 2 days a week). She doesnt work but I am expected to go after work 30 odd miles and two small dc. Then listen to her drama and put downs.

But what do I do to resolve it. They just see me as bad.

You don't have to obey your father or your mother @Chilled😊
What do you want to do, what would work for you, what would make your life better?

I wish now that I kept quiet and let her rant on and on but ignore it and keep up the pretence that we are s normal family. Instead I am here feeling sick and crying and wanting to end it all. I won't do anything silly but I just want things to be ok. Things will never be ok with them.

@Chilled, this feeling will pass and you're going to be ok
just focus on the moment that you're in now, all the other stuff CAN be dealt with.
Things may never be ok with them but you can get them under control and you can cut them out of your life.
People on here have been through similar things and they want to pass on what they learned and help others to cope.
Others have gone before you, there is a pathway.
You're going to be ok.
How are you now?

They just see me as bad
it doesnt matter, you can get to a place where their opinion of you is irrelevant, I know it doesnt feel possible but it is possible

I used to be very close to my father but not this last 8 years. Now he hardly speaks to me. Doesn't even look at me
it must be very hurtful and painful to be treated this cruelly, I am sorry, you are worth so much better

But what do I do to resolve it.

Nothing, Chilledout11. You do nothing.

You can't resolve it. It's not your job to resolve it. It's your mother who has the problem, not you. Your father knows it but he ignores it, or gets out of the way, or puts pressure on you to see her more often, or all three. Why do you think he does that? He does it to make his own life easier, less full of drama.

Maintain radio silence. Don't respond. Think about yourself and your family. Put yourself and your family first. Accept that you are neither the cause nor the cure for your mother's behaviour. Keep your distance. Put your own mental health first. Talk to someone supportive - your OH, a non-judgemental friend, a counsellor. Keep active and busy. Remember to breathe.

It's hard, I know it is. But it is not your role in life to be screamed at, put down, made to feel bad or small or worthless. You are none of those things. You are a person of worth, a mother. You deserve better.

chilled so many here know how you’re feeling. It’s bloody vile, and it’s not your fault. Keep it together xx

And as SingingLily says you do nothing at all, it’s really that simple. Let them do what the hell they want, it’s not your mess.

Thank You for your kindness. I hope things will be ok. I am not the type of person who likes conflict and my job is in a caring profession so this all make a me feel like a fraud that I am not being the good daughter and dm will put on a big show of trauma and tell the neighbours and everyone how bad I am. I just can't take it anymore.

I think if I stood up for myself years ago I wouldn't be in this position now at my age. I always tried to make her happy and she ignored everything good I did. Lay in bed and let us tend for ourselves a lot and dfather told me to move away to uni as far away as possible. I did but somehow came near hometown again and I just feel like I will never be free. It wasn't physical abuse or anything just bad tempered and negative critical constant put downs. Dfather now isn't speak to me properly even though in my heart I know he knows she pushed me too far. But he sticks up for her. Spoils her.

Someone once said to me that I was trying so hard to make things ok for everyone else because I couldn’t make things ok for me.

You can’t help them chilled, but you can help yourself.

we get you @Chilled
you are not a fraud, it is impossible to be a 'good' daughter when the parents are toxic, there isnt a good daughter shaped space in that dynamic.
How I wish I'd stood up to my parents when I was younger, but they have you trapped in a kind of spell and you cant see through the malign fluence!

Chilled, I turned myself inside-out, trying to be a "good daughter", to the point where I was making myself ill with exhaustion and stress. I provided a 24/7 taxi and concierge service for my mother, hoping to earn the smallest crumb of approval from her. It made no difference. No difference at all. If I'd given her the Crown Jewels, she would have found a reason to turn her nose up at them and declare me a useless daughter.

So I stopped. I stepped back. I put myself and my family first. And in doing so, I let go of the anxiety, the insomnia, the high blood pressure, the stress-related eczema. My life is immeasurably calmer and happier.

Yours will be too one day.

You cannot please this woman. You cannot change her. She is incapable of change. So start pleasing yourself instead. You can do this!

My brother says she is mentally ill and just ignore it. I don't like the term sorry for using it.
Some examples are taking illness at a speical occasion (hen party) needing emergency a&e an hour before it began and arriving loud and in perfect health after dfather ringing me in a terrible state. Even my Mother in law said 'there's nothing wrong with that woman'. Graduation day she had a terrible back and couldnt sit through it.
Wedding dress shopping she asked to lend money from me for her friend to buy an outfit (she brought her friend with us). They had about 60 of their friends at the wedding and still said they never had any say in the day. She wrote dfathers wedding speech which more about a family friends birthday and nothing much said about us.

When I had my first child she told my brother she forgave me for everything. She is very aggressive and lazy having never worked yet only eats the best and wears the best. Will ask me to visit and have to clean as she is sick yet next day drives two hours to a hotel with her friend.

Often says horrible things like I will turn disabled as I work with disabled people or yuck are you still doing that job. Is racist and homophobic.

I think the key to going nc is to block all contact
I simply couldn’t just ignore or not rise to the shitty texts so I blocked her number
Unfortunately I emailed her to tell her I was pregnant the day before I told gm as I knew gm would be devastated if I hadn’t told dm
So she then had my email address, which is how I got the email the other day about me upsetting gm (because I won’t let dm buy anything for the baby as throwing money at me has always been her way of trying to ‘put things right’ and I won’t accept anything from her anymore)
Anyway , finally managed to figure out how to block her email address to and if gm is no longer speaking to me I needn’t worry about either of them anymore .

@SingingLily
Thanks for the advice, it's hard to hear but you are right. I always saw my mum as the good parent growing up because atleast she wasn't like my dad.

hoping to earn the smallest crumb of approval from her. It made no difference
I know what that's like, trying to be a better daughter to get any approval from my dad growing up, or just to try to prevent him sulking and moaning like a child. Yep nothing you do matters, they only seem to remember any small things you do that upset them.

Can I unload more, I have been thinking about my childhood the past few days and I don't remember my mum actually being that interested in my problems or helping me develop and grow as a person, especially as a teenager. Seems as the older I got the less attention I got. She tells me about her problems though like I'm her friend or I'm the parent. I had ocd and depression from having ocd when I was 18. It was effecting my life so much it was effecting my basic hygiene. My parents didn't say anything to me about it, didn't bring it up once! Did they even notice! When I was moving house with my bf, I was stressed from packing and we were buying a house for the first time so we had the extra stress of that. My dad called me the night before moving day to ask me about some small problem he was having (misplaced item or something). He didn't ask me how I was with the stress of moving house or anything, it was just where is the item I want. He didn't care he was adding to my stress because he wants this item right now. My entire life its been like my problems are the least important in the family. The more I think about it, it just makes me angry. Anyone have any good tips for dealing with the anger you feel when you think to much about your childhood? I see her with my son showering him with effection and everytime I ask myself "where was this when I was growing up? Didn't I deserve this too mum?". It makes me feel a mixture of anger and jealousy, and then guilt and feeling like a bad person for being jealous of my son for something I don't remember getting much of from my mum.

When I first stayed with my husbands family for the first time when we were dating I remember being shocked how much they interacted with each other. They talked to each other at the dinner table and discussed their day, future desires, their problems etc. They listened and gave advice. Is this what normal families are like? It was alien to me because in my house dinner time was food on your lap infront of the tv and no talking because you couldn't interupt my dad's TV watching. When my dad was infront of the TV, not once in my entire life did he ask what I wanted to watch.

My entire life its been like my problems are the least important in the family. The more I think about it, it just makes me angry.

It's a shock to the system when you go over the past and realise it wasn't really what you thought at the time, Panda. In fact, it's really quite painful and the level of anger you will feel will be shocking. Don't forget that we were never really allowed to express our feelings. We were forced to bottle them up and instead, spend our lives trying to manage our parents' moods by walking on eggshells and second-guessing everything we said or did in order not to be the convenient excuse for a tantrum. So to actually feel again - that's raw and new. But normal. Please be reassured about that. Your response is entirely normal. However, once the blinkers are off, they never go back on again. Try to see this as a useful thing - however much it hurts - because once you are able to see clearly, you are in a better position to put coping strategies in place to protect your own mental and emotional health and that of your son's.

I can completely relate to everything you say. I didn't matter to my mother and my father was so busy trying to placate her, I just didn't appear on his horizon either. The complete lack of interest in you, your needs, your development, your education, even the obvious stresses in your life - oh yes. I know exactly how that works and why you are so angry about it now.

How to deal with it? I can only offer what I do to work through the pain and anger, Panda, but I offer it in the hope that it helps.

Unload as much as you want, whenever you want, as often as you want and never feel that no one is listening. Never worry, either, whether it would sound trivial or silly. Trust me, it won't. We all know the deadening cumulative effect of a thousand tiny cuts. If you have someone sympathetic IRL, that's good. If you think talking to a counsellor will help, do that too. But you will always have this thread as well - that's what it's here for, and you can guarantee that someone somewhere will hear you and understand.

Keep busy. Get out into the fresh air, go to the gym, do whatever helps when the pain inside feels unbearable. I used to put on loud cheerful music (although I was feeling the very opposite of cheerful) and chop a mountain of veg and cook until I felt calmer. You could always tell the state of my mind by how full the freezer was. There were times I could have fed the whole street and still had plenty left over for seconds.

Consider keeping a journal. I scribble in mine whenever a memory bubbles to the surface, things I'd thought I'd buried a long time ago. I don't make any efforts to write in any order - I just let loose with the memory and how I felt at the time and scribble away. Then I put it to one side for a couple of days until I'm feeling calmer and go back to it. No idea why, but it helps to calm me.

And sometimes, when none of those things worked, I'd retire to bed and cry. Because that's normal too. I learned not to cry as a child, even when I was injured, because my tears were met with shouting. Or indifference, if I was lucky. Now I can cry in a healthy way and yes, I do feel better after a good cry.

You will find what works for you, Panda. I am truly sorry for what you are going through but try to remember that the sadness and pain and anger is actually healthy. You are grieving. Grieving for the parent/child relationship you should have had but didn't. You deserve better. We all deserve better. 💐

Sometimes just saying how you feel out loud when you’re by yourself is very cathartic.

I feel REALLY BLOODY ANGRY!

You are supposed to have feelings, experience them, they’re really really valid and important.

Yes, herocomplex - that helps too! Great advice.

It also works if you only say it inside your head, especially when you hear that awful persistent nagging critical little voice - the one gifted you by your parents. Drown it out!

@SingingLily
Thank you very much for taking the time for all your lovely replies, they are very helpful. Its good to talk to others that understand/ have had similar experiences like having to manage our parents' moods by walking on eggshells and a complete lack of interest in your needs, education and development.

Never worry, either, whether it would sound trivial or silly thank you, I was worried when I first posted that it would sound trivial.

deadening cumulative effect of a thousand tiny cuts this sentence really stood out for me, some things are small and sound trivial but it adds up.

For the keeping busy to keep your mind of any pain you feel, I play computer games because it was the only good thing I had to enjoy in my childhood/ teenage years. I also daydream alot, think it's called maladaptive daydreaming or something. I have done since I was a child and would live in other worlds I made up in my head probably as an escape from my real life.

Good idea about keeping a journal whenever a memory bubbles to the surface, I will definitely do that. I have just tried to forget and bury alot of thinks. Some of it I question was it as bad as I remember?

Grieving for the parent/child relationship you should have had but didn't yes this is so very true. We all certainly do deserve better

Difficulties in my life over the past couple of years have revealed my father's true colours to me, at first I just couldn't understand why he was being so callous and unsympathetic, I kept trying to elicit sympathy from him, trying to explain it away, I thought that if only I could get him to see how painful this was for me he would be sympathetic.
But no, I realised that the fact of my having difficulties was just inconvenient for him and he wanted to brush them out of the way so that I would focus on on being sympathetic towards him making him feel important.
I felt enormous rage for a while I had episodes of cursing spitting obscenities about him in private in a way that felt quite shocking and primal, whenever I spoke about what was going on on to those in my inner circle this rage would well up inside me.
Now I just feel cold towards him, he hasn't treated me like a daughter he's treated me like a random person who's troubles are not relevant to him, and I now feel able treat him in the same way, but I'm not sure what I have done to my mind, I feel as if I have broken something in order to break free of him.

I can appreciate that my parents must have had traumatic childhoods and they had just passed that down undigested to me...
man hands on misery to man it deepens like a coastal shelf...
But none of that happened on my watch and I have tried to make amends to my children for the things that did happen on my watch, that seems to be the difference, they expected unquestioning loyalty towards parents and they were constitutionally unable to acknowledge any faults in themselves.
I'm just not prepared to take anymore shit, he will have to lie in that bed that he's made.

@Ulterego
It's awful when your parents are so cold, unsympathetic and uncaring about your problems and just want to discuss their problems

they expected unquestioning loyalty towards parents and they were constitutionally unable to acknowledge any faults in themselves I can relate to that, my dad expects children to be completely obedient and loyal to their parents. Seen and not heard is his saying. Any deviation from the parents wants is seen as a complete unforgivable betrayal. He also has the delusion of thinking he is a great parent. My dad also had a difficult upbringing, my grandfather was a very cold man who never hugged his children or told them he loved them once. He never remembered his childrens birthdays or anything. My dad was definitely emotionally neglected and probably didn't get all the basic needs met. Your right your parents childhood didn't happen on your watch. No amends or apology has been made. There childhood doesn't excuse their behaviour. We deserve better