Arsehole or narcissist?

[Lockcodger]

I've read so many threads on here tonight that I thought I would post up some if the things I've learned recently about narcissism, as so many people seem to be going through this at the moment.

I've recently just escaped from my 3rd relationship with a narc and I'm still processing alot of it but much of what I say below is available on YouTube.

In the beginning

1. He showered you with excessive gifts, compliments, favours etc that sometimes made you feel uncomfortable? Particularly if he said he had never met anyone like you before, you are his soulmate.

1. The relationship progressed very quickly and he said I love you very early on, talked about marriage, children, moving in together way too early.

1. Your gut told you something wasnt right but you ignored it at the time

1. It feels too good to be true, you were swept off your feet etc

1. Played the victim, had many "crazy exes" who cheated on him treated him terribly and his family and life in general was out to get him but he cannot see the role he played in the demise of his life.

1. Unable to keep down a job, lives an unstable lifestyle (homeless, jobless, living with parents or a string of short term partners)

1. You were vulnerable at the time e.g. very young, just left another abusive relationship or breakup, you have had a difficult childhood, lost a job etc.

This is the idealisation phase of the abuse cycle (idealise, devalue discard). The next phase is devalue and then discard.

1. Devalue: Constant little digs sometimes disguised as jokes, putdowns, sarcasm, criticism or outright calling you names

1. Projection: Accusing you of things you haven't done (cheating, lying etc.) They are projecting the things that THEY have done to you, onto you. Jealousy is a huge red flag!

1. Lying and gas lighting. If you catch them out in a lie, they will give you 100 bulshit reasons why it wasnt a lie and then turn it back around on you and say you are abusive and controlling for daring to ask them to explain themselves and why they lied. This is gas lighting, making you doubt your own reality and feel crazy (which they know they are making you crazy so call you crazy to gaslight more).

1. Triangulation. This may start with comparing you to other women or exes by pointing out your flaws, slagging off all of their exes to you so you never find out what really happened between them (most likely he was abusive). This then leads to cheating, which has 3 goals. One to punish you for whatever perceived terrible thing the narc thinks you've done, to make you feel like shit and want to compete with the other woman and also for additional narcissistic supply.

1. Entitlement and irresponsibility. Lazy, selfish, nothing is ever good enough, parasitoc lifestyle rely on you financially or ask to borrow money and don't pay you back or you have to ask them to pay, live with you but doesnt pull their weight with housework, bills and childcare. Comes across as helpless, is bad with money, has been homeless or lived with a string of short term relationships, has drug or alcohol dependency, doesnt see his children or pay child support, can't hold down a job.

1. Fragile ego when they feel they are criticised they hugely overreact like a toddler stomping their feet. Immaturity, tantrum throwing, silent treatment, stonewalling (ignore you for hours/days), threatens to leave, threatens to expose something private about you (secrets/pictures), throwing things, punching walls, physical or sexual violence.

1. Lack of empathy. You feel like they don't care about your feelings because they don't!

1. Cheating. Nearly all narcissists cheat. They like to line up new narcissistic supply for your discard phase (this is why they appear to move on so quickly when a relationship ends but really they were lined up all along)

1. Recruit flying monkeys. Spread rumours and lies about you to tarnish your name while they play victim. You may see your own friends turning against you if they believe the narcs version of events.

10. They have a history of domestic violence, say their ex was violent to them, say their ex made false allegations of abuse against them to turn their children against them. 99% of the time, believe the woman, not the narc.

11. Hoovering. After discard they will get back in contact to test the waters, promising they have changed, quit drinking/drugs, they NEED you, life is so horrible etc.

If you take them back after the Hoover stage, you re-enter the idealise, devalue discard abuse cycles only the cycles will get shorter each time you go back.

The best thing to do if you identify a narc in your life is to run, go no contact and block them from everything. If you have children with the narc, you could try low contact method.

Theres so much more but this post is becoming really long. I hope it helps some people reading this

Sorry, another one is isolation and control. They will start to isolate you from friends and family by telling lies about them to you, telling you to stop talking to someone or making it difficult for you to maintain hobbies, friendships, work and family commitments.

Oh and I didn't answer the question. I used to torture myself trying to understand what was motivating the narc in my life. Was he a narc or just an arsehole? The conclusion I came to is that it doesnt really matter, if they treated you like shit, are destroying your life and making you Ill then you need to leave

This is so timely, @lockcodger.

a million whirring clicks

Choc I was so blind to all of the above just a few weeks ago. Once you have seen it though, you can't unsee it and you can then see it everywhere, all around you.

Please, please if alot of the above rings true, do your own research as there's so much information available now. You tube videos have been my biggest source of info and there are a few top clinicians with videos.

Another thing is that these people are not nasty all of the time (if they were, you would never be in a relationship). If they are like the above even 5% of the time, its emotional abuse and ANY abuse is unacceptable.

Let's stop giving these selfish twats the time of day and they can go and breed amongst themselves!!!

Wow.....I recognise my ex....this is so goddamn right.

Why it's scary isn't it. They all use the same tactics regardless on sex, culture, financial status. There may be some subtle differences as they are overt and covert narcs which present very differently but use the same control tactics.

Some of the videos I've watched talk about a "hive mind" or even demonically possessed (which I laughed at originally but it actually makes sense in a metaphorical way)

That's why you have no choice but to leave if you are in a relationship with one. They are incapable of change because they don't have empathy

Found it! What can I say - not all of it stacks up with me. I’m never openly (or covertly) insulted or compared to an ex. Certainly showered with so much affection early on which has died out (maybe just a natural thing).

When his mum passed away we went to his home country to try it out. I lost my financial freedom there and am only now, having had a child and desperately needing some independence, am freelancing and earning pocket money - enough to buy essentials and plane tickets to visit my family.
I have told him for over a year now that I’m not happy in his home country to deaf ears.

Sorry for the personal rant I’m trying to nut it out. He is never openly cruel, I’m just trapped, bored, unhappy, left alone so often, financially struggling (his ventures are all over the show and he won’t consider my opinions as much as I try to help and be involved-I’ve now given up caring).
I can have a better life but don’t want our son to hate me for ripping him away from his father

I don’t think you needed to try to analyse it too much. He’s sounds like both a narcissist and an arsehole tbh. Im not sure these titles / diagnoses for individuals who behave shitilly helps. Infact these top arseholes probably quite like being called narcissists.

God not another diagnosis thread.

Look up the Duluth Power and control of domestic abuse.

I think you are conflating the two.

Noone can diagnosis online!

I'm not diagnosing anyone Smother, just listing the warning signs that I have learned from my own experience and research on the topic in the hope that it may help some other people. If someone has alot of the traits listed above, the likelihood is pretty damn high though, internet diagnosis or not.

I found it helpful to identify them as narcs because I could then try and understand the psychology behind their motives, realise how futile the relationship was, how to recognise and avoid one in the future and how to deal with them in other areas of life. For some of the relationships I've been in, I didn't even notice they were abusive because it was the early stages when I left and although something felt off, they hadn't hit me physically or overtly been abusive. Looking back, I could now have identified them earlier on from what I've learned on narcissism and I hope others can start to do the same.

Alot of the above overlaps with abusive men in general including what is listed by Lundy Bancroft, but that makes sense because the vast majority of abusive men are narcs.

Narc or not, abuse is abuse

Oh my god it has his name written all over it. Thank you lockcodger

NZ I agree it doesnt matter whether you can 'label' him as a narcissist as either way you are being financially and emotionally abused.

The article you linked in your OP specifically mentioned that emotional immaturity is essentially narcissism and the signs of that are the same. There are so many subtleties between these people so if only some if it rings true, you may wish to do your own research into it to understand why he behaves the way he does.

I understand it is hard to leave someone when you have children together (I know, I have been there) but ultimately you have to ask yourself if this is the kind of environment you want your child to grow up in, the behaviours you want your child to model and whether you want to spend the rest of your life being controlled, isolated and financially abused. It will only get worse. You cannot teach someone empathy

If I'd have read this when I was actually IN the relationship, I would have left a lot sooner. It is literally him. Every. Single. Point

Lockcodger, that deserves a round of applause.

That's all so familiar.

Agree with you re: who cares if they're narc vs abuser. It equates to the same thing and the only answer is to leave.

Why that's exactly why I wrote this thread. If I had spotted the signs, I would have been out of there so much sooner and I hope other people can do the same.

These people target and groom empathetic people. We naturally don't like to make judgements about people, like to think we can help or change them, feel sorry for them (as they play the victim and they say we are the only ones that can help), try to do anything to avoid conflict and are generous with our time, money and affection, have poor boundaries (which they take full advantage of). The more you give, the more they take. Theres no pleasing them (you try so hard and they keep moving the goalposts or changing the rules) and no compromise (or they contribute as little as possible).

They know this and can sniff out our weaknesses as they are attracted to vulnerability in any form. In my case, I'm a single parent who has had several abusive relationships which have caused me to have low self esteem, anxiety and doubt my reality and ignore my gut. I've now realised this is a symptom of abuse and can also recognise this in others.

Here's some other signs I have not mentioned above but have experienced personally:

1. Crap at gifts after lovebombing is over. They either buy you nothing on special occasions, buy you something cheap and impersonal or something expensive but again impersonal, like they haven't really thought about what you might like. If you give them a gift, they can react strangely e.g. I bought one ex (an overt narc) a watch and he cried and put on a dramatic performance about how noone had ever bought him a gift before or the flipside when I bought a covert narc a Fitbit and he was very rude, ungrateful and arrogant about it despite mentioning he wanted a Fitbit. He made me feel like I was a terrible gift giver and my gift was neither wanted or appreciated

1. Contradictions. Narcs are full of them. One rule for you and another for them, and what makes it worse is the rules keep changing. For example they can sit on their lazy arse all day but if you dare to sit down for 5 minutes you are accused of being lazy. My most recent covert narc ex started to say things like "you're not very maternal/domesticated". He was letting me know that housework was my job (even though in the beginning he cleaned often and said he wanted an equal relationship). Slowly over time, he did less and less and I picked up the slack.

1. Financial abuse. They will either control your access to money or dictate how you spend it or will use up all of your financial resources on them. This was a big one for me to realise as because I have a good career, I was often the breadwinner and paid for most things. Over time it led to me paying for everything, lending money and not being paid back while they spent their income on whatever they wanted (often lying about how much money they actually had). There was always some crisis that needed money (a bill they couldn't afford but promise they'll pay you right back, claiming their wallet has been stolen and they need to borrow money until their card is resent etc.). This also counts as financial abuse as they are using up your resources and don't care if this puts you under financial strain.

1. Weird about sex. They can be hyper sexual, pushy about sex, don't use condoms or take them off during sex without consent, don't like being told no and nag you for sex, gropey (you feel like they wont leave you alone despite your body language telling them you don't like it), talk about exes and previous sexual experiences excessively. They can also be the flipside and withhold sex as a form of punishment or be open about being attracted to or sleeping with other people.

1. They talk shit. Stories where they are the hero but it doesnt add up, claims of medical diagnoses or procedures that are untrue. This is a tough one because you don't want to accuse someone of not being Ill when they are but my exes have been so obvious about it. One said he had a metal plate in his head, with no scars and no explanation as to why and said it very flippantly. Another had cut his hand badly but gave several different explanations as to how it had happened to different people. They often claim to be depressed/stressed as an excuse for their behaviour. Another common one is claiming they have injured their back and talking about it excessively for sympathy but it doesnt appear to stop them shagging everything in sight.

1. Mentioning suicide when you leave/argue as a way to Hoover you back

You've met my DH ?
I have obviously heard on MN about gaslighting etc but have never had it explained as simply.
Apart from drug -drink he ticks every single box .

Most people won't get a formal diagnosis of NPD. However, narcissistic behaviour is so common amongst abusers and they all follow the same patterns. They are all predictable in their behaviour as you describe, Lockcodger. I think the word narcissism is overused and often thought of as a diagnosis. I don't think it is a diagnosis. I think the word describes a spectrum of personality traits which many abusers fit into.

It's a big pill to swallow. The Freedom Programme is brilliant and it is so important to recognise abuse for what it is. Often it becomes normal and we are so often left thinking, oh well at least s/he's not doing xyz. We are not thinking what these people are doing.

@WhatWouldLIfeBe
May I ask what the Freedom program is please?

this is really interesting. but I am a little confused is a narc the same as an abuser?

As a pp said earlier, I think this post desrves a round of applause. I'm literally reading your posts and nodding, whilst going OMG yes. Even down to the present buying. My ex asked for a list of perfumes I liked, so he could "buy the right one". I got every single one. Nice - but no thought went into it. He literally had it there in black and white. Looked at one of my presents to him, threw it on the table and just went, "Why?" If I could, I would send him a link to this thread, but thankfully he has a restraining order on him !! Even if he read it, he still wouldn't recognise himself.

Caffeineplease, the Freedom Programme is run by Women's Aid for women in abusive relationships. It is really good to be in a room with other women who have gone through a similar experience and to learn what abusive behaviour constitutes, what are the red flags, the effects of abuse on family and children, and recovery from it. There is loads of stuff on youtube. The language to describe abusers varies as does the language to describe those recovering from it.

I was quite shocked in therapy when the counsellor said almost immediately that my ex is a narcissist. His behaviour fits the pattern.

Who knows if a narc and an abuser are the same thing? Narcissistic behaviour is often abusive. I guess it depends on how far on the spectrum it goes. The word has negative connotations. We all need a bit of self-respect and self love to keep our feet on the ground.

@WhatWouldLIfeBe thank you for the info can I access this program without going to WA ? Sorry for all the questions but my google history is monitored.

What would, I totally agree. Narcissism is a pattern of behaviour and there is also a scale. At the lower end of the scale, it can be a healthy way to protect and generate self esteem. At the opposite end of the scale, you will be dealing with psychopaths or sociopaths. Mid to high range, you are dealing with people who are abusive and may not necessarily meet the criteria for NPD but are still highly destructive people.

Banana Either way, if they display several of the traits above, they are abusive (whether you can officially diagnose them as narc or not). Narcissists are abusive and abusers are often narcissists so it's essentially the same thing.

One thing I found helpful in identifying them as narcissists (as opposed to just labelling them as abusive) is the realisation that they will never change, no matter how many perpetrator courses they attend or counselling sessions you talk them into.

You can do the freedom programme online www.freedomprogramme.co.uk or call your local womens centre to do the face to face one.

@caffeineplease; If possible, keep a diary of everything your partner does. Abuse goes in cycles. If you are ever afraid of your partner don't be afraid to speak out. The police have a specialist domestic abuse team and you may find it helpful to speak to them. This really doesn't mean that your home will suddenly become inundated by police officers marching around. The police are often key-holders for other support and work closely with Women's Aid and other organisations to help you through the mire of domestic abuse. Women's Aid also have a Survivor's Forum where you can find support from other women who are going through similar. If you can't do stuff at home, are you able to get out to a library?

Me ex fits most of the above points. He does have narcissistic elements to him, I generally label him as selfish, immature, irresponsible, thoughtless, etc.
Thinking back, Im sad that I accepted a man so lacking in empathy and warmth towards me. I'm a few years on now but still wonder if I was the difficult one in the relationship. Some of that is to do with my upbringing, however.
Reading the parts about gifts giving reminds me of how he asked me which kind of engagements ring I liked, and ended up buying a one Id told him was my least favourite. He bought it cheap so that he could propose to me while we were on holiday. The whole thing bothered me but I felt very guilty about it. He later told his work colleagues my feelings and they disliked me for it. I could go on for hours about the way my self esteem and confidence subtly eroded over time.