Arsehole or narcissist?

[Lockcodger]

I've read so many threads on here tonight that I thought I would post up some if the things I've learned recently about narcissism, as so many people seem to be going through this at the moment.

I've recently just escaped from my 3rd relationship with a narc and I'm still processing alot of it but much of what I say below is available on YouTube.

In the beginning

1. He showered you with excessive gifts, compliments, favours etc that sometimes made you feel uncomfortable? Particularly if he said he had never met anyone like you before, you are his soulmate.

1. The relationship progressed very quickly and he said I love you very early on, talked about marriage, children, moving in together way too early.

1. Your gut told you something wasnt right but you ignored it at the time

1. It feels too good to be true, you were swept off your feet etc

1. Played the victim, had many "crazy exes" who cheated on him treated him terribly and his family and life in general was out to get him but he cannot see the role he played in the demise of his life.

1. Unable to keep down a job, lives an unstable lifestyle (homeless, jobless, living with parents or a string of short term partners)

1. You were vulnerable at the time e.g. very young, just left another abusive relationship or breakup, you have had a difficult childhood, lost a job etc.

This is the idealisation phase of the abuse cycle (idealise, devalue discard). The next phase is devalue and then discard.

1. Devalue: Constant little digs sometimes disguised as jokes, putdowns, sarcasm, criticism or outright calling you names

1. Projection: Accusing you of things you haven't done (cheating, lying etc.) They are projecting the things that THEY have done to you, onto you. Jealousy is a huge red flag!

1. Lying and gas lighting. If you catch them out in a lie, they will give you 100 bulshit reasons why it wasnt a lie and then turn it back around on you and say you are abusive and controlling for daring to ask them to explain themselves and why they lied. This is gas lighting, making you doubt your own reality and feel crazy (which they know they are making you crazy so call you crazy to gaslight more).

1. Triangulation. This may start with comparing you to other women or exes by pointing out your flaws, slagging off all of their exes to you so you never find out what really happened between them (most likely he was abusive). This then leads to cheating, which has 3 goals. One to punish you for whatever perceived terrible thing the narc thinks you've done, to make you feel like shit and want to compete with the other woman and also for additional narcissistic supply.

1. Entitlement and irresponsibility. Lazy, selfish, nothing is ever good enough, parasitoc lifestyle rely on you financially or ask to borrow money and don't pay you back or you have to ask them to pay, live with you but doesnt pull their weight with housework, bills and childcare. Comes across as helpless, is bad with money, has been homeless or lived with a string of short term relationships, has drug or alcohol dependency, doesnt see his children or pay child support, can't hold down a job.

1. Fragile ego when they feel they are criticised they hugely overreact like a toddler stomping their feet. Immaturity, tantrum throwing, silent treatment, stonewalling (ignore you for hours/days), threatens to leave, threatens to expose something private about you (secrets/pictures), throwing things, punching walls, physical or sexual violence.

1. Lack of empathy. You feel like they don't care about your feelings because they don't!

1. Cheating. Nearly all narcissists cheat. They like to line up new narcissistic supply for your discard phase (this is why they appear to move on so quickly when a relationship ends but really they were lined up all along)

1. Recruit flying monkeys. Spread rumours and lies about you to tarnish your name while they play victim. You may see your own friends turning against you if they believe the narcs version of events.

10. They have a history of domestic violence, say their ex was violent to them, say their ex made false allegations of abuse against them to turn their children against them. 99% of the time, believe the woman, not the narc.

11. Hoovering. After discard they will get back in contact to test the waters, promising they have changed, quit drinking/drugs, they NEED you, life is so horrible etc.

If you take them back after the Hoover stage, you re-enter the idealise, devalue discard abuse cycles only the cycles will get shorter each time you go back.

The best thing to do if you identify a narc in your life is to run, go no contact and block them from everything. If you have children with the narc, you could try low contact method.

Theres so much more but this post is becoming really long. I hope it helps some people reading this

@SadVillageGirl...please speak to Women's Aid. Getting out can be very dangerous and you need as much real life support as you can muster. You can also speak to the Domestic Abuse team on 101 and they can guide you. It's a terrible & frightening time & you absolutely do not have to do it alone.

The lies the lies the lies... The words and the actions tell different stories. Eugh. For so long I wanted to believe what he said. Of course he was always right. My ex fits the bill for being a narc.

Whatwouldlifebe Thankyou. I've tried ringing them but it went to voicemail.

Please keep this thread going

Thank you for starting this
So many people suffer in silence

I'm still suffering
I hope he dies a slow death for what he did to me and my daughter
Now denies everything

This site helped me escape and plan what to do next
If anyone is in fear and they are able to do so - post on here you will get support and help

I had no one to go to
No one believed me plus I was too scared and ashamed
He painted himself as a gent
He is far from a gent

Sad I second What, please contact your local womens centre or the national domestic violence helpline 0808 2000 247 which is open 24/7. It may be difficult to get through at first but I think you can leave your details for a (discrete) call back.

This video is quite good at explaining what you need to be prepared for from the narc when you leave. It's good to have a plan in place and brace yourself for the Hoover, flying monkeys and smear campaign.

i watched a documentary earlier which follows the murder of a British author by her covert narcissistic partner. I found it particularly chilling as he had no previous history of violence and came across as a bumbling victim who targeted her when she was vulnerable, which highlights the danger that alot of women don't realise they are in. The more documentaries I watch like this, the more I can see how the various red flags play out time and time again.

I'm glad people are finding this thread helpful and it's great to have the support from such an amazing, strong bunch of women.

My ex has smeared me, telling his family I was using him for money. I so badly want to email them and tell them the truth, that he saw escorts, cheated on me, put his dick on sex sites and physically abused me involving the police. I know I can’t as he’ll try to do worse. The deceit to pretend he’s a gentleman to them are unbelievable. I was such a decent girlfriend, so loving and generous. It stings so bad 😢

@Miniloso eventually it took me 17 years you won't give a fuck. My first exh still lies about me to anyone who'll listen. He is a prize fuckwit. I don't care. I look at him now and see a pathetic, lonely, middle aged man who will always be bitter. The only contact I'll ever have with him now is after he is dead. That will only be to stick pins in his eyes to make sure he is genuinely dead.

@nrpmum I hope the day comes soon! I know he won’t be able to ever have a healthy relationship and he hasn’t so far and he’s 50!! He badly wants one too! What a total loser.

Smearing people and telling lies seems to be part of the pattern. Mine hasn't gone as far as saying I used him more money but he has told all sorts of people that I was controlling and that was why he gave up some of his hobby activities and didn't visit his family as much. It just isn't true.
He had no time for his hobby and family because he was pissing about drinking every night and using prostitutes.

Mine reckoned he'd find a better woman than me and be happy ever after with children etc... and told me I would have been a terrible Mum and that's why he didn't want children with me. He spent 5 years telling me he didn't want children.
I have never had a desire to children but I think I would be a good Mum. He'd be a terrible Dad and I am glad I never had children with him.

I am healing slowly but I expect to feel the consequences of this relationship for several years to come. Already feeling that I could never trust someone again and have turned down some nice men because of it.

@Miniloso the day I left him he went back to his ex. She is still on/off with him 17 years later. She has caught him having sex with a woman he worked with in the back of his van (literally), he has lived with another woman, all sorts. He has financially crippled her to the point she might be going to prison for non payment of council tax, etc. She is the only person who allows him to boomerang.

Only reason I know this is because my son lives nearby and socialises with his half brother who lives with the lady who is in this boomerang relationship. She knows how awful ex is but she can't get away from him. Ex apparently still smashes stuff up, spends money like water, etc. I'm just grateful I had the sense to get out when I did.

@onionchucker I think it is so that they look like the good person, and people will feel sorry for them.

Covert narcissists are terrified of their reputation being damaged - my ex had his sob story of how his family were all he had etc etc and if they found out he would have nothing. I couldn’t seem to get him to understand that it was all in his hands, that if he didn’t want those closest to him to think he was a vile man that he should stop his deviant behaviour. That if he was a decent man he’d have nothing to hide ... he couldn’t grasp that it was all his doing & fault and just blamed me for the fact he could be ‘ruined’.

'10% of the population are narcs'

Really? What do you mean by 'are narcs'? Are you saying one in ten people have diagnosable NPD or that one in ten people have significant narcissistic traits to the point that they impact negatively on their lives?

Either way it seems highly unlikely. Where did you get this stat from?

@jiggles

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/9741.php

Bullshit, and racist

Jiggles, I said ~10% (I.e. approximately).

The article below states "Prevalence of lifetime NPD was 6.2%, with rates greater for men (7.7%) than for women (4.8%)."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18557663/
This is only from one cohort, and other studies probably vary quite considerably depending on the demographic studied, but then this is true of all scientific studies.

From what I have read, there are other strategies used to measure narcissistic traits in studies (as opposed to strict diagnosis of NPD from the DSM), such as NPI (which participants used to self measure narc traits). This tool will probably pick up more people without NPD that have narc traits.

I guess that's why alot of the videos I've listened to state that prevalence is around 10% for sake of ease.

I don't profess to be an expert on this topic in any way and I encourage people to do their own research if anything I have said doesnt match up with the professional literature. I started this thread the help people recognise narcissism in their every day lives, not start a discussion on the evidence base of research on NPD.

Jiggles, why is the study 'racist'? It is describing what they found in their cohort (that rates of NPD were higher in particular racial groups). Science doesnt always give the answers we would like but it is the researchers responsibility to analyse and report the evidence found in their study.

Why is it bullshit? Are you an expert in this field and can you provide an explanation why you don't beleive the findings?

www.oatext.com/racial-implications-of-the-narcissistic-personality-inventory-reinterpreting-popular-depictions-of-narcissism-trends.php

Here's why. And yes I am a professional in this field as it happens.

I have no issue whatsoever with your thread, I think it's really useful for people in abusive relationships. Because that's what you're really describing here.

So many abusers have narc traits. Abusers follow a pattern. A predictable cycle. Will look at your link Juggles. Thank you

@jiggles The ‘racist’ slant didn’t even occur to me given it’s a study. I’d be horrified to think that in this day and age medical studies had a racist slant.

I really hope this thread doesn’t de-rail into a debate about race or percentages, it’s been a bit of a lifeline for me recently 🙏

@jiggles101 just read the article, it’s really interesting, thanks for that. Have you any more articles about NPD, in particular any that can help me and others who have been affected by it? I’ve had bad PTSD and am in therapy now as a result of my relationship with my ex.

The article was very interesting thank you.
I don't know whether my ex would be diagnosed with NPD but he certainly has narcissistic traits as described in this thread.
I didn't feel like my relationship was abusive at the time but it certainly wasn't healthy.
I feel I have been damaged by the relationship and that the main problems was my ex's obsession with himself.

I think 'racist' was a little reductive of me tbh, the article just points out the racial implications of using the NPI and how maybe it's not the most reliable measure in today's society I guess, and that the previous article is flawed because of this.

Certainly don't want to derail the thread, it's really interesting and useful. I just think, as other posters have said, it's not always helpful to label entitled wankers as 'narcs' as it takes or down a mental health route when actually the most important focus is that the behaviour is abusive and unacceptable regardless.

for anyone who has been involved with someone like this, it really is soul destroying

It's hard to avoid when the word Narc is out there in common usage. Whatever we want to call these abusive monsters, most of them won't get a formal diagnosis and even if they were to get one, I doubt most of us would know. Really I think the best we can do is to recognise the behaviour for what it is and work on ourselves as much as we can and reach out. It is so important not to suffer in silence. It is also really important not to undermine our experiences. So often there is not enough evidence with domestic abuse & marital rape to prosecute. It doesn't mean it didn't happen and it doesn't mean we are not believed. The wheels of change move imperceptibly slowly. I found it a huge relief to report my ex to the police and let them deal with him. Understanding and coming to terms with domestic abuse is a learni g cliff face and not usually a deliberate choice. However, there are so many wonderful people to hold our backs. It said on the Panorama programme about refuge that shadows come in and women leave.

In my experience of calling WA they have always called back. No-one should live in fear. Please keep reaching out. Hopefully one day things will be better for future generations.

These stories are devastating, but I don't for a second believe all these men are narcissistic. Although I understand why a label makes it easier to understand what happened.

I think the point is that we have to not waste our time diagnising them and saying they did certain things that tick a box. We can all have narcissistic traits at times.

It's more about why WE accept such abusive behaviour over and over. In some cases for years. Are we that damaged that at the first sign that these men are abusive that WE minimise it and stay.? WE accept.

We can all spend time reading online articles, but in reality beyond having an understanding what they may or may not be, it is a waste of time. They aren't changing and we are only keeping ourselves stuck in the past.

I've been out with a few arseholes,. I'm not labelling them narcissistic because they weren't. Like many arseholes on this thread they were allowed to continue to abuse me because I chose to stay. They are just abusive men who didn't care about me and treated me as such.

I think it's important to move away from labels and ask why, in some cases in this thread, people chose multiple partners that treated them like crap and yet chose to stay for more and more shitty, abusive behaviour.

If we didn't accept it from tbem the first time, there wouldn't be a second time for any of us to be treated appallingly.

Jiggles, thanks for the article. From what I can understand, it is criticising the NPI tool because it doesnt adjust for socioeconomic status and therefore creates bias towards people of ethnic minorities (who tended to have lower socioeconomic status in previous cohorts studied). I think to say the research is racist is abit misleading, although it is worrying that white supremacists are using the data for their own agenda. They need a better tool to measure narcissistic traits in these studies

As What said earlier, most abusive men (and cluster B's) are narcissistic. If they don't meet the criteria for NPD, why is there not another descriptor for their pattern of behaviour in the field? I wish there was more research on this topic because whether these men can be labelled as narcissistic or not, there are enough similarities in their pattern of behaviour to be able to predict whether someone will become abusive and differentiate those who pose the highest risk to women. Because this issue predominantly affects (and kills) women, I suspect that's why it's not higher up on the government or academic agenda (but then I'm very cynical these days 😂).

Laughing, I still don't agree that you can assume these men are just arseholes that didn't care enough about their victim to stop themselves terrorising them. It is often more calculated than that and is about power and control rather than apathy.

As I've said so many times, I don't really mind what term people use, this isn't a thread to debate the literature or discuss the 'diagnosis' of narcissism (although I can understand why using this terminology might annoy a professional in this field)

I wrote it because I have seen the pattern in the beginning first hand, many times and it didn't click with me that this isn't normal and I stayed. Because I stayed, i found myself in a highly abusive relationship (several times) and still couldn't see how their behaviour was abusive. I wasnt prepared for what would happen when I left and I couldn't see the danger I was in at the time.

I agree it's not helpful to focus on the behaviour of the abuser forever, but I want people to be able to see the signs before, during or after the relationship, to help others know that you weren't crazy, it was abuse and you were not alone.

If you haven't ever felt like this, then count yourself lucky. Many of us have and will likely come across it again in the future, but this time will know the signs and know when to run