Arsehole or narcissist?

[Lockcodger]

I've read so many threads on here tonight that I thought I would post up some if the things I've learned recently about narcissism, as so many people seem to be going through this at the moment.

I've recently just escaped from my 3rd relationship with a narc and I'm still processing alot of it but much of what I say below is available on YouTube.

In the beginning

1. He showered you with excessive gifts, compliments, favours etc that sometimes made you feel uncomfortable? Particularly if he said he had never met anyone like you before, you are his soulmate.

1. The relationship progressed very quickly and he said I love you very early on, talked about marriage, children, moving in together way too early.

1. Your gut told you something wasnt right but you ignored it at the time

1. It feels too good to be true, you were swept off your feet etc

1. Played the victim, had many "crazy exes" who cheated on him treated him terribly and his family and life in general was out to get him but he cannot see the role he played in the demise of his life.

1. Unable to keep down a job, lives an unstable lifestyle (homeless, jobless, living with parents or a string of short term partners)

1. You were vulnerable at the time e.g. very young, just left another abusive relationship or breakup, you have had a difficult childhood, lost a job etc.

This is the idealisation phase of the abuse cycle (idealise, devalue discard). The next phase is devalue and then discard.

1. Devalue: Constant little digs sometimes disguised as jokes, putdowns, sarcasm, criticism or outright calling you names

1. Projection: Accusing you of things you haven't done (cheating, lying etc.) They are projecting the things that THEY have done to you, onto you. Jealousy is a huge red flag!

1. Lying and gas lighting. If you catch them out in a lie, they will give you 100 bulshit reasons why it wasnt a lie and then turn it back around on you and say you are abusive and controlling for daring to ask them to explain themselves and why they lied. This is gas lighting, making you doubt your own reality and feel crazy (which they know they are making you crazy so call you crazy to gaslight more).

1. Triangulation. This may start with comparing you to other women or exes by pointing out your flaws, slagging off all of their exes to you so you never find out what really happened between them (most likely he was abusive). This then leads to cheating, which has 3 goals. One to punish you for whatever perceived terrible thing the narc thinks you've done, to make you feel like shit and want to compete with the other woman and also for additional narcissistic supply.

1. Entitlement and irresponsibility. Lazy, selfish, nothing is ever good enough, parasitoc lifestyle rely on you financially or ask to borrow money and don't pay you back or you have to ask them to pay, live with you but doesnt pull their weight with housework, bills and childcare. Comes across as helpless, is bad with money, has been homeless or lived with a string of short term relationships, has drug or alcohol dependency, doesnt see his children or pay child support, can't hold down a job.

1. Fragile ego when they feel they are criticised they hugely overreact like a toddler stomping their feet. Immaturity, tantrum throwing, silent treatment, stonewalling (ignore you for hours/days), threatens to leave, threatens to expose something private about you (secrets/pictures), throwing things, punching walls, physical or sexual violence.

1. Lack of empathy. You feel like they don't care about your feelings because they don't!

1. Cheating. Nearly all narcissists cheat. They like to line up new narcissistic supply for your discard phase (this is why they appear to move on so quickly when a relationship ends but really they were lined up all along)

1. Recruit flying monkeys. Spread rumours and lies about you to tarnish your name while they play victim. You may see your own friends turning against you if they believe the narcs version of events.

10. They have a history of domestic violence, say their ex was violent to them, say their ex made false allegations of abuse against them to turn their children against them. 99% of the time, believe the woman, not the narc.

11. Hoovering. After discard they will get back in contact to test the waters, promising they have changed, quit drinking/drugs, they NEED you, life is so horrible etc.

If you take them back after the Hoover stage, you re-enter the idealise, devalue discard abuse cycles only the cycles will get shorter each time you go back.

The best thing to do if you identify a narc in your life is to run, go no contact and block them from everything. If you have children with the narc, you could try low contact method.

Theres so much more but this post is becoming really long. I hope it helps some people reading this

What did you find trauma counselling helpful? I'm considering paying to have some private trauma psychotherapy but it's expensive so I'm abit reluctant to go unless I know it will make a difference. I paid for "standard" counselling a couple of years back but whenever I talked about my exH, my counsellor would end up in tears and start telling me about her exH instead and I felt like I was counselling her in the end 🙄

Ten, I think going back to basics when comminacating with your ex is a good idea. Hes just retraumatising you by getting in your head. We are never able to play narcs at their own game because they are ruthless and lack empathy and would rather self destruct than let you "win". Interacting with them is utterly pointless.

NRP im glad you have managed to find a supportive partner after being with abusive men previously. That's awful that he is restricting access to your child. They are very skilled at manipulating the courts so my heart goes out to you.

Anamechange sorry you are going through this right now. They don't need to have every single point listed here to be abusive/narcissistic. They are individuals after all, so will use the different control tactics to varying degrees. It's the patterns of abuse that reveal the most about them. I know leaving is so hard but if you are being abused, it wont get better if you stay. Feel free to post on this thread if you need support.

Kitty, how are you doing today?

Cheaper well done for getting the courage to leave and STAY gone. That's often the hardest part, telling them to fuck off when they try to Hoover you back. Especially when they play the "poor me" card and you feel obliged to help them if they are the father of your children. Just remember if you ever have a moment of weakness, they are adults, they chose to behave this way, they are lying to you to get you to give in, they will NEVER change and it's not your responsibility to look after them! It's a great motivator when your kids have had enough too.

I allowed my exH to have indirect contact with my children thinking they need a father in their lives and he couldn't hurt them over the phone. Turns out he was just continuing the head fuckery and manipulation with them with every phone call. When my 14 year old said he'd had enough, it was like a weight lifting from me and I blocked him from having further contact (I'm quite lucky as he's serving a lengthy sentence in prison so that's easy to do for me at the moment). I'm dreading when he gets out but I'll just have to get a restraining order again.

It is hard to leave but it is worth it in the end, especially if you have children.

Hi everyone. Checking in. I'm out of the house, still have all my worldly belongings in the car and still planning on what to do next. I think I'll have to take a day off work tomorrow to see if I can get a flat as , cheap as it is, this hotel will soon haemorrhage cash.

I hope everyone is doing ok today xxxx

Well done Kitty

You are amazing, Kitty, well done you!! Hooray!!

Lockcodger, I experienced my first trauma counselling through Rape Crisis. They very quickly got to the bottom of my wretched life and I had some horrendous feelings about that which I haven't experienced since. The counsellor suggested carrying on maybe when the dust has settled with EMDR or another trauma processing therapy. I am told that these can be very specific. Women's Aid also sometimes offer counselling and you may find help through Victim Support. It is not general therapy. I did loads of that with my ex. What a waste of time and money. He was like a mouse on a wheel, round and round over the same old over and over again. Stuck.

These men are all the same

I met my XH when I was only 14......he was 20 (that should have been a huge red flag)

I lived with my dad and stepmother......she was so abusive that we were given a social worker

At 14, I was swept off my feet by this man who made me feel loved and wanted. It didn’t matter that I wasn’t allowed to see my friends or have any male friends.......after all, he wanted me to “spend all of my time with him because he loved me so much”

I didn’t know that was another huge red flag

He cheated on me when I was 17.....but I forgave him because “he’s ex came onto him and made it difficult for him to say no”

We moved in together when I was 19

He cheated again when I was 20 but again I forgave him because “he really loved me and was really sorry”

We got married and had our first baby when I was 23.....then another at 25 and another at 28. I worked nights and he worked days

I did everything at home and for the children “because I was home all day”. Despite him earning 3x my salary, bills were split 50/50. He always had a huge amount of disposable income for himself. My money was “family” money and things were very tight financially

I was becoming more and more unhappy and spent ages on mumsnet posting and reading everything I could in relationships. I was becoming clear that I was in an abusive marriage.......no wasn’t an acceptable answer to “let’s have sex”. He was so entitled. I remember frequently crying afterwards thinking “I can’t do this much more”

At 37, he found one of my mumsnet threads (saying I wanted to leave and how to go about it)......he would regularly go through my phone in case I was cheating (I never did and never will)

He begged for another chance and told me he was sorry.......I stupidly agreed but did say that it was a final chance and if it didn’t work, I’d leave.

He agreed

I fell pregnant with our 4th

I felt I owed it to the new baby to stay and make things work

Big mistake

He was so awful.....our tennagers were now being damaged too. Our oldest was threatening suicide and our second child was also verbally/emotionally being abused

At 39, I told him we were over for good

It took 3 years to get him to agree to sell the family home and sign the divorce papers. He told everyone I only wanted to leave because I was having an affair

I have now been in my own house with the children for a year and a half. Life is amazing

The children are happy and settled and so am I

Of course he still thinks I’m sleeping around.....I’m not. I’m staying single because I will not put my children through any more rubbish

He tells me how selfish I am for destroying our family

He is pure poison

Sorry it was so long

Kitty, I'm so pleased you are somewhere safe. Did you manage to find a flat today?

What I've heard of EDMR therapy and might try to see if I can find a private practitioner. I'm hoping I get can my children some trauma therapy too as their dad has affected them all greatly.

Missy It sounds like you have had a horrendous experience. It's great that you managed to escape and move forward with your life. Many of us know only too well that leaving is only the start of you recovery.

💐 to all the survivors on this thread

I think a lot of people can have narcissist traits. The word narc is thrown around a lot on here. I've only met a handful of people I believe qualify (according to the DSM V) as having narcissistic personality disorder.

I think most people labeled narcissistic on here are arseholes with some narcissistic traits. Lots of people love bomb at the start of a new relationship and then stop when they lose interest, for example. I think there is a tendency for people to want to label someone that treated them badly. Just my opinion.

I think its more a question of 'do they have empathy or don't they' a lot of people might not qualify as narcissists under the dsm but if you don't have empathy then you are clearly some sort of messed up and I don't think the term 'asshole' quite does it justice. More that it cant be assigned to a specific cluster b sort of personality disorder just yet.

I think it is the question is does the person have empathy for others, i.e. their friends and family. Having no empathy for a partner could be that they just don't care enough, are not bothered being in the relationship.

I've had a few arsehole partners with narcissistic traits. They did have empathy for friends/siblings.

Only a few people I have met have no empathy for anyone. Thankfully, that seems to be rare

I think the question is...... That should have said

Laughing I agree that everyone can have narcissistic traits, however many pathological narcissists wont meet the diagnostic criteria from the DSM because of the nature of narcissism itself. One of the criteria is "clinically significant distress or impairment" socially, at work etc. Many of them are not distressed by their behaviours due to lack of insight, accountability and empathy and therefore wont seek a diagnosis as they are not distressed.

I don't really think it matters whether they meet the diagnostic criteria or not if they show a pattern of abusive behaviour. Narcissist, arsehole, abusive are all pretty interchangeable in my opinion however there is alot more research and literature out there about narcissism and it has really helped me to understand the psychology behind this type of abusive behaviour.

Another thing I found helpful with identifying my abusers as narcissists (rather than just abusive or arseholes) is the very clear information out there that they cannot change, no matter what help they get, how many DV perpetrator courses they go on or how much counselling you can drag them along to.

Many women in abusive relationships get stuck on the idea that these men can change (including myself) and therefore it's very liberating to realise there is nothing you can do but walk away.

It's ok, we can agree to differ. 😊

Laughing I think comparing an abusive relationship with a narcissist to someone who just "doesnt care enough about their partner" is hugely minimising the impact of these types of relationships.

I agree some men can just be arseholes as in they're not just into you enough, don't really care etc but are generally decent people. What this thread is about is a whole other experience entirely (which anyone who has been in this situation can attest to).

Lack of empathy isn't just about not caring, it's about systematically destroying another person and laughing about it, physically assaulting or threatening someone and enjoying the fear in their eyes, deliberately causing someone to lose their family/friends/career and feeding off it to gain more control.

I often asked myself at the time if the narcissists I have been in relationships were just arseholes (much like you are describing) or whether it was something more. They make you feel like you are responsible for their actions, that you are to blame and whilst you are in the middle of it, it's so hard to see you are being abused and may just think hes abit of an arsehole.

Narcs are something much more calculated, much more deliberate and will completely destroy your life if you let them, and I mean completely.

I know what a narcissist is and about the disorder and am not minimising it. I will stand by my original claim that a lot of people latch onto the term because their partners or ex partners were emotionally abusive, cheated or generally behaved appalling. This does not make them narcissists, not by a long stretch.

I am not saying all your exes were narcs, if it was indeed you that said your last three partners were narcs, I would just find it very surprising.

One of the overriding symptoms of NPD is a distinct lack of empathy for anyone. Again, it's rare in my experience to see that.

If it has helped you to label/believe your exes are all narcissistic then fair play to you. We are all entitled to our opinions on here.

Al you exes weren't* narcs

Laughing I agree not everyone who cheats or behaves badly can be labelled a narcissist because it is a pattern of behaviour, rather than one individual character trait or flaw.

You have met alot more narcissist people than you realise (~10% of the population are narcissists). It's part of the disorder that they can hide it so well in front of everyone else, including professionals. They can fake or mirror empathy because they know it is socially normal to do so, however in their close interpersonal relationships, their callousness and lack of emapthy can be seen much more clearly. I really don't think you can ever really know anyone, especially if you only know them as an acquaintance or casually, even if you work with them every day.

I am not qualified to diagnose NPD and I'm not trying to formally diagnose anyone, however as unbelievable as it may seem, my last 3 partners showed at least 80% of the signs I have discussed above and that's good enough for me to consider them narcissistic.

I've recognised that I'm a co-dependent and that this makes me a huge target for narcissists and other types of abusive men, which is why I have had so many abusive relationships in my past.

This is something I am trying to heal from and I hope that some of the information I have listed on this thread may help others to recognise they are in an abusive relationship, whether they want to refer to them as narcissists or not.

Ah yes, that old chestnut of co-dependency. It's another of those words with negative connotations, however, unlike narcissism it is a habit and not a personality trait. Narcissist was the first word my counsellor used when I spoke about my life with him. It's possible he has been rumbled as he racks through therapists, used to say they were rubbish and used to call me a psychopath. He wants my gp to say that I have a personality disorder. (I don't). I can only think he learned about personality disorders through his counselling which only made him worse.

Many abusers have narcissistic traits. Why would they seek help when their behaviour works for them?

I've had a few arsehole partners with narcissistic traits. They did have empathy for friends/siblings

They can act you know xD Often these sorts will make a song and dance of appearing nice to many people. But the partner or the best friend or the employee they are bullying, THEY'LL see the real side to the narcissist. They may also go out of the way to praise or do things for other people infront of you, to make you question if they are truly the 'bad guy/girl' or not. To make you think it must be your fault they treat you this way.

You have just described my ex! more or less word for word! It is scary looking back now, especially to the stark reality of my wonderful current partner! Kind, gentle, laid back, no drama, just....nice....

That's my ex to a tee. Except the bits involving children because we didn't have any.

To any of you in the process of awakening/leaving, I'm 18 years on from my ex and I never had a single regret. I felt broken after the relationship, absolutely emotionally battered but I did a lot of reading on abusive behaviours online and learned how to recognise red flags and listen to my instincts. And my depression, anxiety and anger issues evaporated too - all caused by that relationship.

Life's been great ever since. So keep on thinking, reflecting, and planning your freedom.

I have just left a 2 year relationship with a covert narcissist.

I found this book very helpful:

www.amazon.co.uk/Covert-Passive-Aggressive-Narcissist-Recognizing-Psychological/dp/099862134X/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&crid=1L3JII1G9AW1M&keywords=covert+narcissist&sprefix=covert+nar%2Caps%2C127&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1554830659&sr=8-1

Also the book www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&crid=3EHDNHDAUV7Y&keywords=why+does+he+do+that&sprefix=why+does+h%2Caps%2C128&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1554830803&sr=8-1

I am now having counselling to sort myself out. He ended up physically abusing me at the end after months of emotional abuse (police gave him a warning), gaslighting and cheating on me with escorts and women from a swingers site. He financially abused me, and made me feel crap about the fact I earned a quarter of his salary and have 2 kids to support and a mortgage, yet still expected me to pay an equal share, saying 'you could have been a CEO, it's not my fault'.

He blamed me for everything and became angry when I gave him solid evidence that I was not to blame. He even blamed me for him cheating on me. The fact he physically abused me was 'my fault' as I had made him angry. The financial abuse was my fault, everything was my fault.
The lies he told were unbelievable. He told his family we ended because I was taking advantage of him financially - yet I paid for lovely weekends away, paid a significant share towards all our other holidays and trips, took him out for dinner as much as he took me out, and bought him lovely gifts. If he ever owed me money I had to beg for it.

He would lie to my face even when I was holding the evidence in my hand and then become angry saying I was at fault for finding out - I shouldn't have looked / it was my behaviour that made him do it etc etc.

He invited me for Xmas at his house and I paid £120 for food and drink for the two of us for 4 days - he still said I had taken advantage of him. He would not choose a Xmas present in advance of Xmas so I gave him £100 so he could buy something, then he complained that I had not made him feel special. There are tens of other examples.

He love bombed me in the beginning talking about marriage and living together, then a year later denied having ever said these things. Or, that he had felt those things but my behaviour had caused him to back off and he needed to see if things would 'get better' before he would consider it again.

I wish I had known the signs before I got involved with him as they were clearly there. I was naive and just out of a 17 year marriage and was perfect for him.

Please read the books! I wish I had.

What I am in two minds about the word co-dependency too, as like you say, it implies some of the blame lies on the victim because of their pathology. All most of us want is to love and be loved and it comes as a complete shock that anyone could treat another human being this way, especially someone who professes to love you, so why wouldn't you trust them? Why wouldn't you want to believe they have your best interests at heart? We wouldn't need to have labels for co-dependency if abusive people didn't exist, we'd just be nice people in normal, non abusive relationships.

On the other hand, I recognise I have poor boundaries and feel very uncomfortable enforcing them and i certainly ignored alot of red flags because i wished they weren't true at the time. I probably do give away my "help" far too easily too, as i get so caught up in sorting out the other persons life that i forget about my own wants/needs etc. and probably on a subconscious level beleive that if I "fix" them, they will have to love me.

It's so difficult to pick apart how much of my behaviours and attitudes are down to a co-dependency issue from childhood (I wouldn't have married my exH if I didn't have serious self esteem issues) or whether this all started because I married my exH at such a young age (18) and spent most of my formative years in a horrendously violent and abusive relationship, with subsequent harassment and abuse for the remainder. I suspect its abit of both and I probably need professional help to get to the bottom of it as all the self help books in the world can only get you so far!

💐 to everyone who has escaped and rebuilt their lives.

Thanks for the book suggestions Mini, I've not covered much about covert narcs on this thread but they are particularly difficult to spot and may not have some of the red flags mentioned above in the beginning. It's only once your life is enmeshed with these people that you see how evil they really are.

The Lundy Bancroft book is excellent. I read it after leaving my exH for the final time and could identify him on every page. The problem for me is that I became focussed on how the book applied to HIM and stopped applying it to future partners. It is only after the last 18mo from hell, where I was exposed to 3 very different narcs (2 covert, 1 overt) that I can now see the pattern of abuse and it has finally clicked somewhere in my brain.

Your ex sounds horrendous and nothing they do surprises me anymore. They really are depraved!

My biggest question is how do you move on from the anger? My exH has left a legacy of destruction which his DC have to deal with the consequences daily. He'll never feel sorry, as he cannot even begin to grasp how his actions caused it and wouldn't care even if he could. This is the part I'm finding so hard to move forward from.

I think you move on from the anger when you make an active decision to stop allowing him to continue having power over your life.

You survived your relationship, you are free. There is much to celebrate. The alternative of regret, shame and anger is only allowing him to continue to control and impact negatively on your life.

While I'm all for reading up and understanding what happened, at some point you have to let it go. You don't need to be defined by the horrible relationship you were in.