Another man whingeing about his sexless marriage

[ArthurKing]

Good Evening,
Would appreciate a different perspective on an issue that has been going on for some time in my marriage.
Been married for 22 years, 3 kids, one with special needs and chronic health problems, oldest is 18, youngest is 14.
Basically my wife and I haven't had any intimacy since she learn't she was pregnant with our youngest. When I say intimacy I mean no sex, no proper kissing (I get that kind of duck faced peck you normally get from an ageing female relative), cuddling or hand holding. Yes I have tried to talk about it, she shuts me down and storms out of the room. I haven't had an affair, I didn't and don't take her for granted and I defy anyone to tell me I don't do my share around the house, particularly with our son, I get up at 5:30 every morning to deal with his feeding pump, change him and put him back down then up again at 7 to put his feed on, get him ready for school and give him his breakfast. I organise "date nights" and all the holidays, liaise with the hospital and the school and do all the driving and see to him when I get home from work.
I will be honest, I am not attracted to my wife any more, I have been knocked back so many times I feel like my role was provider only (kids, money etc). My wife asked what I wanted for my 50th, I said nothing, just you, she walked off and didn't speak to me for a week. If I leave it will mean leaving my family and losing everything I have worked so hard for when I have done nothing wrong. All I want to know is why? I know my wife isn't having an affair, its like she came into our marriage with a plan that had noting to do with me, only what I could provide and once she got it she switched off, we were a great team once. If there was some underlying issue, even if it was she finds me repulsive, I'm sure we could work something out. Any kind of insight would be helpful, really just want closure. Thanks Arthur

Right, a few clarifications here.
Our daughter is fine.
In what universe does answering the question "What do you want for your birthday?" With the word "You" imply that I don't think she's good enough?
I get my son up, washed, dressed and give him his breakfast. I see to him in the evening when I get home from work, that is work, not losing on a chaise longue dressed as a French duke eating soft cheese) and at the weekend (all weekend). I take him to all his appointments (hospital, school, doctors and outpatients) so how is my wife doing ALL his care.
I DON'T want sex with my wife because I don't believe in asking someone to do anything, especially something so intimate when they clearly don't want to.
I don't think I am better than anyone or deserve anything (please point out where I said I did). I don't feel attracted to my wife because I don't think she is attracted to me anymore. I see other couples holding hands, kissing and being affectionate and I want some of that, of course I do, last time I checked it wasn't a crime! But I have responsibilities, I deal with all the admin, pay all the bills. I am a good provider and the best dad I can be but clearly a rubbish husband because I have the temerity to think that maybe it might not be fair for the one woman in this world who 22 years ago stood up in front of an audience and promised to love, cherish and worship me with her body decided that I don't deserve to know why she doesn't want to. Yes I'm bitter and so so angry but and here's a thing, not at my wife, at me because I'm not good enough, because I would rather cry myself to sleep for the thousandth time than rock the boat and risk losing her. I am terrified I am going to end up alone when all I did was my best.
Okay?

Sorry, lost it a bit there. I think I had better leave this for a while and go for a walk.
Apologies if I offended anyone.

I'm sorry for your situation, Arthur.

My marriage hasn't turned out how I'd hoped either. I think dh is just hoping it will be okay. aka burying his head in the sand.

I understand your anger OP. I was in a "no touch" marriage, my exh wouldn't come near me, I thought I wasn't good enough. I ended up having an affair, realising I wasn't as repulsive as my exh made out and divorced him. I hasten to add that there were no kids involved so it was easy for me.

I hope you find a way to get through this OP.

Arthur, I hear you. There are little things that you are tripping over here, in the way you talk about your wife, that are making certain folk go for the jugular a bit. But I think I understand what you are trying to say. Mixed in with your very real feelings, are unfortunately things that you believe that are making this situation hurt even more than it needs to hurt.

For example.

You say you have done everything right, but may lose everything anyway.

I hear you on this. You have been "good". And yet, here you are suffering, and you fear you may suffer even more. It feels so unfair.

But my friend, you need to understand and accept something dreadful, and that is that being "good" guarantees you nothing at all.

You can be a selfish bastard your whole life, and be richly rewarded. You can be selfless all your life, and be punished to the very end. Being "good" is not a currency that you exchange for perfect safety and eternal love...

In fact, folk who focus on being "good", are often suffering from a miserable affliction called "codependency". You may want to look that up. It takes many forms, and can be particularly malignant in relationships that include a caregiving element, as you've described with your DS's care needs.

People who suffer from codependency typically believe that if they just take care of everyone, if they are perfect and wonderful and great providers, that they've somehow insured themselves against loneliness / relationship issues / abandonment. That, for example, their wife would adore them and be so grateful and life would be full of wonderful things. It's as if they "pay" for love, via taking care of everyone flawlessly.

The cold hard truth, though, is that a codependent person typically becomes less and less attractive to their partner over time. The partner senses that the codependent feels "entitled" to gratitude, to love, etc. Things don't feel freely given anymore. They feel forced. It all begins to go wrong. Intimacy dies. Closeness starts to feel wrong.

It's extremely difficult to maintain sexual love in a relationship where the partners feel that something is owed. I'm not saying it's your fault - I'm saying that a dynamic has taken root here. Both of you are contributing to it.

The long and the short of it is, you both need to get real about the fact that there is a problem here. These are the steps you need to take:

1. Talk to her with the purpose of gaining agreement that there is a problem with the relationship. Not with her, not with you - with the relationship and its dynamics. Sexlessness is a symptom of that.
2. Book couples counselling.
3. Journal your feelings starting today.

If she doesn't get onside with 1 or 2, I'm sorry mate but you need to get your ducks in a row to leave. I know you don't want to hear that - but that's the truth.

You're within your rights to see your situation as unfair - but as long as you insist on maintaining that perception, you are going to keep on hurting with no end in sight.

I put it to you that the situation might be fairer than you think:

• You married believing that if you were "good", your wife would repay you with love and never abandon you.
• Your wife, over time, has noticed that you expect payment in return for your "goodness"
• As a result, her desire and intimacy has died.
• She now finds herself in a pickle. She thought she was marrying someone who loved her warts and all... but it turns out... she entered into a relationship of currency, not love freely given.
• She might wonder if she is even loveable enough to find a better situation than the one she is in...

I'm sure that the truth of it all, lies somewhere between your perception and hers, of course.

Don't be afraid of being alone. If you end up finishing this relationship, you will have the wonderful privilege of an opportunity to meet someone new. And that too might end. You will still be fine - ultimately, ALL of us are alone in this world. Accept that, and what relationships you do have, cherish them for what they offer while always knowing that you are able to tend for yourself, if things end or change (spoiler: ALL THINGS END. Be prepared.)

Just never again go through a relationship trying to be "good". It gets you nowhere. Be you. Get to know yourself. Be brave.

Sounds like a really tough situation. I did go off sex after I had all three kids when I was still breastfeeding. I have wondered since if it was like a natural instinct to stop myself getting pregnant whilst still nurturing my baby. The thing is though I talked to my husband and we got things back on track. I have learned the longer I go without sex, the less I want it. The more I have it the more I want it. I do think you need to be able to communicate and if your wife just shuts down and you don't like broaching it and making her uncomfortable, it's understandable nothing has improved. Could you suggest going to a sex therapist to communicate if she won't communicate with just you.

I also then had a miscarriage whilst on the pill. That really put me off sex because I was so worried about getting pregnant again. Once my husband had a vasectomy it improved. But now we are faced with the challenge of a teenager who never sleeps affecting things.

There's lots of reasons she might not be feeling it but if she won't communicate to at least let you know what's going on and try to improve things, that's not fair.

Arthur I’m sorry you felt the need to explain all that. It’s of course OK for you to see and vocalise the problems and loneliness you are having and ask for help.
Judgy Posters project on mumsnet all the time on others’ threads- and the loudest ones project their own fears. Noone who loves their partner wants their partner to feel like you do. But many people are scared pf finding it out. You have to talk to her - you are right- and if she dodges, then maybe write a heartfelt letter. You are clearly good at articulating your feelings including compassion and frustration- in writing and you must, for the sake of you both, articulate your needs where she wishes to hide her head in the sand.
Remember to frame it in terms where you ask her for an explicit honest response. Dont leave the Action points ambiguous. If she still doesn't respect you by responding, i suppose you’ll have to take that as an answer and act accordingly. If she does respond - even with the unpalatable-then at least you both have something to work with. One precious and short life, you’ve got. Not one to waste on dissimulation, death by a thousand cuts in a slow erosion of confidence, half truths and loneliness- all because she’s too scared to face you or your needs. Just be properly open- she may say things you disagree with- respect those as her experience and reflect on them without defensiveness. Theyll hold the key. I wish you and your wife courage and candour and eventually happiness. Together or apart.

Arthur - you know your wife better than us even though you are feeling very distant from her. The reason people are taking different tacks on this is because we are different people. I don't like it when someone comes to me with a complaint but no alternative suggestions, no range of possible solutions to discuss and try - just tells me they're not happy and expects me to do all the leg-work on finding a solution; others here are saying , no, no, just talk - or rather try to see if you can get her to talk - but don't go in there with any plans or pre-determined options etc.

There certainly should be no ultimatums (you tried that and it didn't go well and neither of you are really in a position to follow through with them anyway so they just create resentment with no resolution), but think about how she is outside of this issue. When you are communicating well about other issues, what is the style / location / tone of the most productive and amicable (rather than simply perfunctory) conversations you have?

Last three posters are all saying the same thing. Whatever the rights and wrongs and we can’t judge-Ultimately a relationship Needs Communication. That has to be your focus. If there isnt that ...

In what universe does answering the question "What do you want for your birthday?" With the word "You" imply that I don't think she's good enough?
Hi Arthur, what I was trying to do, obviously very crappily, was show how your wife might have construed that reply; I wasn't saying that was what you meant. From her reaction she clearly found your reply either annoying or upsetting, and I was suggesting a possible chain of thought in her head that might explain that.

I will attempt a second time to make it clearer, apologies if I just bugger it up worse ...
Let's imagine your wife feels bad for not having sex with you. For example, she thinks that makes her a horrible frigid woman. Or a disappointing wife. Or whatever. (I'm imagining this as that's how I'd probably feel.)
She asks a fairly banal question not related to sex, "what do you want for your birthday", and you reply "You". As you've mentioned this to us in the context of sex, I'm assuming that you meant "I want to have sex with you again". Or at least she might have understood it that way.
If your wife does feel inadequate or otherwise shit about not having sex with you, that answer could thus, to her, sound like a reminder that she is inadequate. (Again, that's how I would prbably feel.) So she goes off and ignores you for a week.

You asked for possible explanations for her behaviour, that was my attempt to offer one. Of course, we can only speculate. I might well be totally barking up the wrong tree. I hope that you do manage to find a way to get your wife to open up, it's the only possible way ahead really.

If you just wanted to rant then I'll stop suggesting things and agree that you are in a shitty situation. I don't know what I'd do in your place. I can understand why you see your wife's behaviour as hurtful, and feel victimised.

I don't have answers but I have a son with sn and by the end of the day I don't want to be touched . He needs my support to go up stairs , out his shoes on , get dressed etc so I'm don't by the end of the day being pulled about .
We do have a good marriage but I know dh wants more from me . It's tricky .

I am not surprised OP feels the way he does after 14 years of no intamacy, but to those woman who say that why would she if she is not loved etc, I'm guessing you are the type to rationalizing this sort of behaviour. Withholding intimacy when you have made a promise is nothing less than emotional abuse.

To be fair, Ivy3621, Arthur did specifically ask us to rationalise ... he asked us to try to explain her behaviour. So people are suggesting possible reasons, e.g. ones that they have experience of.

Arthur, you could also try using some of that nice gallows humour you castigated us with above. I remember the one time I felt I almost managed to get my ex to open up to me (though he shut down again almost instantly), it was when I accidentally quoted the Spice Girls during an argument, and we both noticed and couldn't be quite so serious any more.

You have every right to be angry, 14 years and no explanation. I and I suspect the majority of posters would be long gone by now.

I wonder what would happen if you took sex and everything else of the table by saying

‘Look I know you think I’m a sex pest but actually I dont dont fancy you any more and dont want to have sex with you again. To be honest I only love you as a friend. That said I do feel you owe me an explanation for the last 14 years so we can get some closure’

I might put a bomb under your marriage but so what you are just 2 people living in the same house looking after children, who will definitely grow up thinking its normal never to go near each other. Its mo way to live Arthur, no way at all.

Sorry Ravensmum it was unfair of me to pick you out. I guess part of me just wanted a rant as you said.
It's true I am a "people pleaser" I even started martial arts 12 years ago because my son didn't want to do it on his own! I guess that kind of codependent behaviour is pretty creepy especially when it comes to relationships. Thanks everyone for your help. Plenty to think about. Arthur.

I suspect the majority of posters would be long gone by now

would they? to go and sleep in a bedsit but still come round every morning and night to help with their SN child.... not so sure they would.

I dont dont fancy you any more and dont want to have sex with you again. To be honest I only love you as a friend. That said I do feel you owe me an explanation for the last 14 years so we can get some closure

is that the way you speak to friends you love?? If you're going to do it like that, at least be honest.

He already tried to put a bomb under the marriage by saying he'd go elsewhere. It didn't work. He's not going elsewhere and neither is she.

Saying "this is not about me pushing for us to be intimate sexually at all, but just trying to understand from your perspective why you feel there is no intimacy of any kind between us anymore and whether you feel there is any chance of reconnecting with some warmth between us and what I could be doing more to help that" is one thing.... there is no point putting a bomb under the marriage because neither of them are going to leave an time soon and it is they and their children who have to live amongst the wreckage of that bomb.

OP your last post was pretty sad to read. You're experiencing a "dead bedroom" and there are better forums than this to explore all the issues associated with that (see Reddit for example).

However you might find this blog post helpful from a woman who has a self-declared low libido and how she found a path through with her partner...

moderntantra.blogspot.com/2015/09/tantric-sex-escaping-dead-bedroom.html?zx=27f102c173c6b538

Ultimately you're going to have to start by discussing the issue and explaining how you feel, and asking her to open up and explain how she feels. At this point you may hear things you don't want to hear. A woman who hasn't had sex for over a decade is going to be convinced she has no libido and is content to never have sex again. Yet that doesn't mean she wouldn't be prepared to work on it to regain desire or potentially incorporate occasional "duty sex" into your relationship to keep you satisfied.

I am happy for you to pm me if you want to as I have experience of this. I may be able to shed some light on your DW’s feelings.

Thanks scatter will definitely check it out.

Good read @scatter
Wish I’d seen that a while ago

Arthur have you posted about this before back in the summer of 2011.

im not asking this to get at you btw but there was a poster with the same situation on there and his kids would be the same age as yours are now.

it was actually the first thread i commented on under a previous username when i joined MN.

You need to think about what you want, I suggest talking to a solicitor who specialises in your situation, and find out how divorce tends to play out and what sort of financial situation you may be in. Once you have come up with a few ideas of how you could fairly both care for your family and have a bit of a life yourself get couples counseling to help you negotiate a plan. If your wife just shuts down and won't talk counseling will hopefully help. If you talk to a solicitor and discover you will be left with nothing then start stashing money, incase she leaves you.
Your wife has to take some responsibility for letting your marriage get the way it has, and you are not unreasonable wanting to leave.

I've read the whole thread just to be sure this hasn't been suggested, and I apologise if I am repeating any previous poster. Staying in a companionate marriage, particularly when a child with sn is involved, is not uncommon and can be very fulfilling. Dan Savage has had a lot to say about it which would be worth reading.

As I see it you have two options. Seek an outside relationship with her knowledge, or without, based on your perspective on her feelings, and stay in the home to maintain support and continuity for your children.

I really feel for you.