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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Being the other woman/conniving in deception/dropping the trapdoor

310 replies

Smudge100 · 09/06/2018 20:08

Six years ago I came home from work to find my then husband had thoughtfully changed the locks on the house before eloping with the woman down the road. When I finally gained entry, I discovered that they had everything useful and even my poor dog.

It’s a common enough story. However, the lady in question was someone I felt close to. She had successfully posed as a friend to both of us, so successfully in fact that I never had an inkling that she had having an affair with my husband for eighteen months. I was later to learn that they had planned their departure to coincide with her reaching pensionable age (at 50, I might add), so that they could both retire to the area where my then husband and I had for years planned to spend our twilight years. Every detail had been carefully put in place. I was left to discover over the ensuing few months not only how methodical and comprehensive their planning had been, but how heavily it had relied upon my ignorance of it. I still struggle with the scale of that duplicity and the extent of my own wilful blindness.

In the intervening years I have given considerable thought to the steely nerves and the sheer brazenness it must have taken for her to maintain that equaniminous demeanour of unruffled nonchalance whilst pursuing a project that she knew would rob me not just of my future, but my faith in human nature and in my own judgement. I’m not suggesting that she owed me a duty of loyalty – far from it - she owed me much less than my equally devious ex-husband. But strangely, I have actually wondered more about her role in it than his. My question is not: have you ever been the Other Woman? There have been plenty of threads in that particular well-worn vein, though I certainly wouldn’t want to discourage anyone with that particular experience from posting, in fact I’d be very interested to hear your point of view. It is however rather, have you ever been a party to the carefully-planned and protracted deception of a third party, particularly someone you knew well? If so, why? Was it for personal gain? Did you despise your victim? Feel they deserved what they got? Ever feel a tinsy bit guilty or the need to justify/rationalise it to yourself? What were your motives exactly? I’m not here to judge anyone, I’m long beyong that now, I’m just still curious about the psychological dynmamic of cheating, the whole process of misleading, placating, dissembling before another person, of not being yourself, of not showing your true face and the strain that places, if any, on the person practising deception. Please feel free to be brutally honest. If only they had been.

OP posts:
AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 10:20

If there's no love in your marriage, you don't love or care about each other and the ties are purely legal, I can't get too worked up over you having an affair. You're not actually hurting anyone (assuming you're not sleeping together so no sexual health risks) if your husband doesn't love you and the marriage is dead. Though I think it would be honourable to let your husband know you'd be happy for him to do the same. If you're leading him to think you're still being faithful, you're denying him the same opportunities. And of course, I am assuming that he knows as well as you do that the marriage is dead. I've seen a lot of cases where apparently only one person was aware.

Actively seeking an affair out via what I assume to be Ashley Madison or an equivalent, doesn't sit right with me somehow. I can't really think why, though, if I don't think the affair itself is terrible.

yetmorecrap · 19/06/2018 11:13

I have had both experiences, in first marriage I was the betrayer, I was unhappy and it was an exit affair, I left not because of the other person , ended that relationship and ended my marriage, I left because I realised I was unhappy enough to do something so crap, having now been on the receiving end of an EA, I would never ever knowingly have a relationship with anyone attached, you never ever know if what they are telling you about their relationship is bullshit.

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 11:30

@Ayn

I think meeting on a website like that is actually better.
People on those websites - don’t come seeking love affairs. Or affairs, that would change their lives.
Meeting at a work place, or through a hobby, or something like that - is far likelier to lead to an emotional attachment to the affair partner.

Website facilitated ‘affairs’ - are much more manageable. And less threatening to the marriages.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 12:52

@nhnhn

That's a strange viewpoint, to my mind. In my experience, there are very few couples who can meet up regularly for sex, company and conversation and neither one of them ever develops an emotional attachment. Humans are not very good at separating sex and love (which I think is a good thing).

Does it matter how you meet? If you click, and you're meeting regularly for sex etc, there'll come a point pretty soon where it really doesn't matter how it started. I'm assuming you wouldn't have this affair with just anybody, and that you do require some degree of connection.

With all that said, I guess I don't really have a reason for feeling a bit 'off' about how you started it, if you were unhappy and knew it anyway. I guess I just feel it's a bit more understandable if you happen to meet someone you connect with, as opposed to actively seeking it out when there's nobody on the horizon.

On the plus side, if you meet via an affairs website, then you really won't be able to do what most people in affairs do, and act as though it's something that just happened to you and wasn't in any way your own doing.

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 13:42

@Aun

You are right, in part. Some people are better than others in separating love and sex.
And for me, specifically, I do like the sex where there is a connection. But it doesn’t have to be love.
Love, at least what I think of as love - is a very rare occurrence in my life.

I think - what happens on the website - at least i got a sense of it from chatting to the men there - people see each other for a while and move on. One, as you said, develop a stronger attachment and the other doesn’t - so they part. Or both decide it’s time.
Then there are separated people who don’t want to date someone who’d want commitment - so other married people fit that niche.

For me, the arrangement I have works given my current situation.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 14:15

Then there are separated people who don’t want to date someone who’d want commitment - so other married people fit that niche.

This I do find very problematic. Actively seeking your own affair is one thing and actively seeking someone who is definitely committed elsewhere in order to protect yourself is....nasty.

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 15:49

@Ayn

People come to those websites because they have decided to embark on a secret life. Married people aren’t forced to be there, they chose to be there.
A few separated people that I chatted with - they didn’t want to ‘protect’ themselves from anything.
They just were looking for the sort of arrangements they wanted - an arrangement that didn’t include a potential future.
Exactly what the married people were there to offer.

It’s all concentual. And no one is forced to be there. Everyone has made a choice on their own.

No party is nastier than another.

Then there are some single women on there. Not quite sure what the draw is - maybe the assumption that hook ups with married men are safer health-wise than Tinder?

AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 16:02

If you take measures to ensure your relationship has no future, because that would not be in your interests, then of course that's protecting yourself. What on earth else could it be?

Ah hell, it's hardly the first time people in affairs pretzel themselves to come up with logic for it.

I'm not saying that anyone is being forced into anything (apart from unsuspecting spouses and families) or that the sex isn't consensual. (Why on earth did you think that was my concern?) I'm not saying that affairs are a good thing. And I am also not saying that everyone who has one is automatically an evil piece of shit whose spouse is a perfect victim. Though that can be the case. I don't even think an affair is necessarily the worst thing someone can do to their spouse.

I'm saying that something sticks in my craw, above and beyond the usual context of an affair, about deliberately seeking out married people in order to protect oneself. About actively and intentionally looking for someone who is committed to someone else, because it serves your purposes better. I must assume that in these cases, there is some emotional tie with the spouse because otherwise the marriage wouldn't be a protection.

There's something really cold, manipulative and human shield-like about it that takes it beyond an unhappy person seeking comfort. To my mind, anyway.

RainySeptember · 19/06/2018 16:15

nhn, are you sure his wife thinks she's in an open marriage? Because that's what xh said about our marriage. Finding that his affair was ongoing broke my heart and changed me into someone unrecognisable. I have honestly never felt pain like it. Every time my dc say their dad is a dick, it breaks my heart all over again because they deserve a great dad, a hero, not someone who fucked other women when he was supposed to be at their sports day. I don't know. I guess I feel that there's something so shabby and cruel about it, but always a valid reason according to the perpetrator.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 16:28

Perhaps the acid test is: suppose you got found out and your husband decided he wanted a divorce, would you be OK with that?

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 17:30

@Rainy

It’s not my job to police his relationship.

Both my MM and his W cheated with multiple people in their first marriages. They had an affair, families broke up.
No joint kids in this marriage.

No - she doesn’t think she is in an open relationship. She thinks he stoped seeing me.
But she is tying to figure out how to keep him from leaving, or re-offending. And is considering an open marriage as part of it.

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 17:33

@Ayn

Yes.
Divorce is a matter of time in my case. If there weren’t kids, we’d not be together.
I am just hoping to drag it out a little longer, so that kids have time with both parents. For now - they are oblivious.

RainySeptember · 19/06/2018 17:56

nhn, I didn't say it was your job did I? I just don't know how anyone can look at themselves in the mirror, or look their kids in the eyes, knowing that they're a part of something so sordid and cruel. He's betraying her, no doubt about that, but you're colluding in it.

If (big 'if' since we already know he's a liar) they met as an affair couple, I guess she shouldn't be surprised and there's some karma at work. I just don't know how you don't have to shower in bleach every day.

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 18:31

@Rainy

I made a decision to find a friend-with-benefits - and came to that website.
So did he.
If we didn’t meet - i’d be meeting another man off there, and he’d be meeting another woman.
Same sordidness would have transpired.

I am not responsible for their marriage. Just for my life. And these are my choices.

They definitely had an affair - old friends rekindling school days, etc.
But - it doesn’t matter really.

RainySeptember · 19/06/2018 19:02

I understand all of that. I understand that he's a shit and if it wasn't you, it'd be some other woman from the website. But why not let it be some other woman? Someone who's not you? Let her collude in his betrayal of his wife. I don't understand why anyone would want to be a part of it. You get one short life and you decide this is how you want to spend it? Scrape up a bit of dignity and kindness, walk away and pursue some available single men.

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 19:10

@Rainy

You assume that all people want the same. Meet and pair up.
I didn’t and don’t.

I didn’t want to meet a single man. If I came across separated men on website - I didn’t go on to meet them.
I was looking for a man in the same position as me - the kind who didn’t want to have an exit affair. The one who just wanted to have an occasional friend-with-benefits.
And a married man who wanted that - was exactly what I wanted, and less risky in many ways - than a single man.
Both have something to lose. So - both can be counted on to be careful and discreet.

Nothing to do with kindness and dignity. I don’t view the world in these terms.

SweetieBaby · 19/06/2018 19:25

I've only just read this thread so apologies for going back to earlier posts.

Some PP were laying the blame for affairs at the feet of the cheated on wives - they were too motherly, frumpy, domesticated, unadventurous, boring... One poster has domestic help every day so that her partner doesn't have to deal with the horrors of seeing her do the ironing or asking him to mop the floor. It was also said that children and partners should be equal in a marriage and that mothers shouldn't put children before partners as this is a sure fire way to send him searching for OW.

So my question - if you are both working hard to pay the bills, pay the mortgage etc and don't have money spare to hire in domestic help or to afford regular child free weekends away in order to keep the spark going, what then? If the husband works day shifts and then the wife nights so that they can manage childcare who keeps the spark going? It seems to me that what actually happens is husband and wife decide, together, to have children. The man escapes relatively unscathed. In his eyes he did his bit at conception. Pregnancy and birth are hard on women. (look up the threads on childbirth injuries. I'd defy anny of the OW on here to tell us how she remained sexy and playful with a grade 4 tear, a prolapse and incontinence!) The bulk of childcare falls to mum. She's at home all day, no adult company, no sleep meanwhile DH comes home expecting to have his every need met. IME it's the wives who soldier through. Who support husbands and children, who give up their careers to build families because it was what THEY wanted, it was a compromise. Then they find the husband has been sleeping with a young, carefree, childless woman that he met. None of the mundanity from real life encroaches on their affair. It's all sneaking around and having illicit sex in a hotel somewhere. No one has to wash smelly socks, or clean beard shavings out of the sink or remember to empty the bins or to take Samantha to the dentist. The wives here are the ones to make sacrifices, to grow up and put others before themselves. The men act like the selfish teenagers that they are, crying to the OW that no one understands them, wife doesn't make time for me, doesn't look nice for me etc.

Maybe if men made more of an effort to help their wives, rather than run off and shag anything with a pulse, wives would have time and energy and just the mental space to make an effort with their appearance.

SweetieBaby · 19/06/2018 19:30

@nhnhnhnh

You might not be looking for a man who wants an exit affair. You want a FWB affair. Guess what? It's not just about what you or he wants?

Just imagine if the wife finds out? Then what? What if she doesn't want to stay with the cheating little slug? What if she decides to divorce him and names you as the affair partner? What then?

These are people's lives that you are playing with. I don't care why they think the marriage is over. If it is over, leave. Don't betray everyone. Do you know what it is like to be the child of a cheating partner? It affects your life for the rest of your life.

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 19:39

@SweetieBaby

His W did find out. She doesn’t want a divorce - she wants to keep the marriage, at any cost.

Their children (from previous marriages) are already aware - their first marriages ended with they got together.

Leave the marriage if it’s over - it’s a nice philosophy - doesn’t always work, when kids are involved.
I will leave my marriage when my kids are a bit older and more resilient.
I chose to prioritise them over my H. He can leave if he isn’t happy.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 19:52

Does your husband know about the affair and have you let him know that he is also free to pursue another partner if he wishes?

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 20:24

@Ayn

The affair isn’t the reason for why our relationship isn’t working and is dead.
We’ve been together for a long time - and it hasn’t been good for a long time. Including me getting depressed and treated a few times.
I can stop seeing my MM tomorrow and nothing would change.

He knows there are deep issues. I do not pretend to be a loving wife. And, more recently - stoped trying to dance around him - got tired of the egg shells.

He is free to so as he wants. I don’t ask him where he goes or who he sees. But - given that we barely have had sex in the passing years, and have stoped completely in the last year - I don’t know what he knows or does.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 20:55

No, I get that your marriage was over before you met this OM. What I'm asking is whether you've explicitly given your husband permission to do as you're doing. Because it would be unfair if he still thinks, despite the problems, that he's duty bound not to seek his own comfort and fulfilment elsewhere.

If you wouldn't care if he discovered the affair and divorced you now, I don't understand why you don't divorce yourself. What are you waiting for? I know you say it's the kids, but if you wouldn't care if he divorced you tomorrow, why would it be different if you just divorce him?

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 21:05

@Ayn

You said something like - if affair were discovered and he wanted to divorce... and I said then it’ll happen before i’ve been planning for it to happen, and won’t stop it.

But as it is - I have a choice of when. And I would like the kids to be in secondary school by then.

As to what H thinks. I am not his keeper. Next (IF) he asks about us having sex - i’ll tell him he is free.
But as we don’t really talk about it, I won’t be bringing it up.
I am not everybody’s ground conrtrol.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 19/06/2018 21:15

I'm not suggesting that you're everyone's ground control, I just think that your husband should know that he's free to pursue comfort and opportunity. It would be sad for him if he wastes the next few years unnecessarily. He might choose not to, of course, but I think he should know that it's not something you care about.

Are you sure you're doing your kids a favour by keeping them in this situation, where their parents neither love nor even like each other, do not communicate and have no connection?

nhnhnhnh · 19/06/2018 21:46

@Ayn

Who knows. These things are hard.
We don’t dislike each other. It’s more neutral at this point.
And - he works a lot and travels.
So - I do a lot of day-to-day.

I am watching and re-assessing as we go. If it gets to be more negative than positive - i’ll have to act quicker.

For now - kids are happy. So - I don’t want to change their world just yet.

And yes - it’s not fair on my H. But I can’t chose that fairness over kids.
If and when he raises the subject again - i’ll tell him.
I have slowly been doing that more and more as I was pushing back on a lot of things that made me unhappy over the years.