DP went to a strip club on a stag do, and I'm like "this is over"

[OhYikesThisIsBad]

So DP [of c.5 years] went to European resort stag do last weekend. I'll be honest: I was fretful, but assumed he has aligned views on women cavorting for men's pleasure.

For context: we're chums with bride and groom, the wedding's fairly soon. DP and I haven't seen each other til tonight, through work travel.

He announces tonight, as we begin our third drink, "yes well there was a strip club".

Apparently he and another chum "went along with everyone" and sat at the bar because they felt "uncomfortable". The groom had a dance "but paid for by someone else!". I asked: DP thinks the bride and groom should still get married.

I'm very very sad, very angry, have told him this is a no go, relationship ender, etc. I loathe strip clubs.

Dunno what i want really - possibly someone to say "no you're wrong, he's a good lad", "he only went along with the crowd". Maybe a hand hold. Is there any way back from this? I was really looking forward to this bank hol. #fuckssake

Point is - a man can be a sexist pig and go to strip clubs.
He can be a sexist pig and NOT go to strip clubs.
He can be NOT a sexist pig and end up in a strip club.
Etc

Many options in a world that’s not one dimensional.

I personally wouldn’t bat an eyelid, this sort of thing is to be expected on stags and suchlike.

Let’s all pretend that if the W knew that - that she’d see that as a different scenario to him ogling some one at a strip club

Of course it would be different .

And before you all attack me for saying men shouldn’t see women on the street as sexual objects. They do - it’s inhumane to not notice beautiful people on the streets. And summer attire does make it all more alluring

Of course men and women notice attractive people. No one is disputing it. Or indeed suggesting that shouldn't be the case.

You're not really grasping the salient issues here.

Really?

Do you honestly live in a world where men are so sexually incontinent that they need to jack off when they should be helping to peel the potatoes?

Seriously? I feel very sorry for any woman who lives with a man who does this and considers it normal behaviour.

I've occasionally glanced at men on the train on my way home and found them attractive, but rushed into the bedroom while calling out that I'll be out to chop the carrots in a mo and furiously pleasuring myself while my blameless partner carries on frying and pretends that this is not bizarre behaviour? ... um, no.

What's in a man's head is his business. What he does about it, that's the business of everyone who is affected by his actions.

Op, I thought from your first couple of posts a phrase that clicked with me on here that someone's man had said & I haven't stopped saying it since when my (mostly loving, thoughtful & kind good person) dh does something dickish. That phrase is that many men are just 'too lazy to think'

When he was with a load of men who had never previously thought of women sex workers suffering PTSD& being suicidal etc, he may have found it too hard to be the lone voice party pooper who says 'I don't agree with this, I'll go to the bar across the road & see you later or I'm off back to the hotel....

In short I think you can salvage this relationship by making a list of things that are deal breakers to you & invite him to do the same & have honest conversations about each point. E.g. you may have written or previously or thought a deal breaker was 'use a stripper at strip joint' and he thought 'I'm not doing that, just having a pint at the bar which happens to be in a strip joint'.

I'd be gutted too. But remember people aren't perfect. Last night my dh went out with my friend's dh & she walked over to my house & we had some drinks then she walked home.

Found out today that 'the boys' got pissed & kicked out as her dh fell asleep in the bar. Couldn't get a taxi & rang her to pick them up at 12.30 & she went. She was well over the limit & I was angry with all of them when I found out today. Each has/will get an individual lecture & hopefully it won't happen again.

Hope you get sorted OP & well done for standing up for what you believe in but listen to him too & talk openly about it before making any final decisions

Lydia and Betty -
All I am trying to say - is that men would look and see women as sexual beings. (And it doesn’t have to be ‘objects’) It doesn’t matter - where that happens.

And if we knew that the Strip Club was fully regulated, women well paid and protected, and there by their own choice -
And if men only watched porn that is considered ‘ethical’, or is put out by willing exhibitionists -
That most women of MN would still not want their men to visit/look at it.

It’s just easier to crusade against trafficking than to admit basic fears of your man being aroused by another woman.

It’s just easier to crusade against trafficking than to admit basic fears of your man being aroused by another woman

'Being aroused'? I've got no issues with my DH finding other women attractive, but if he walked around with an uncontrollable erection near them, that would be rather different...

And if we knew that the Strip Club was fully regulated, women well paid and protected, and there by their own choice - And if men only watched porn that is considered ‘ethical’, or is put out by willing exhibitionists -
That most women of MN would still not want their men to visit/look at it

I give up. Enjoy your evenings, all.

and a bold fail to end on

And if we knew that the Strip Club was fully regulated, women well paid and protected, and there by their own choice -

What other choices would be available to these women? and where would the strip clubs with buff young men be?

By definition, strip clubs aren't there to just display fun sexuality. They're an expression of submission. That's why Prague and Kiev aren't full of bars with men getting their keks off. As long as we have a society where women are not equal to men, strip bars will be scenes of exploitation.

It’s just easier to crusade against trafficking than to admit basic fears of your man being aroused by another woman.

Really? Back to the "oh you're just jealous of younger, prettier women" argument? Do you know how tired that sounds? Do you know how sad it is?

Believe it or not, many women and men live together because they love each other and are friends and companions and as well as still fancying each other, have solidarity and respect for each other. Being worried that your companion will get a boner about other women, is just not part of the equation. I feel very sorry for you if you think that that is a major part of most couple's relationships, it's only a factor in relationships that no-one wants to be in.You seem obsessed by it.

Believe it or not, many women and men live together because they love each other and are friends and companions and as well as still fancying each other, have solidarity and respect for each other. Being worried that your companion will get a boner about other women, is just not part of the equation. I feel very sorry for you if you think that that is a major part of most couple's relationships, it's only a factor in relationships that no-one wants to be in.You seem obsessed by it

God this. Thank you AskAuntLydia for articulating this. This is what a relationship is for me and my friends, sister, mother aunts etc.

We need to stop talking about sex on this thread, before Aunt Lydia has a fit of the vapours.

We need to stop talking about sex on this thread, before Aunt Lydia has a fit of the vapours.

I'd say she probably has a better sex life that you do.

'It’s just easier to crusade against trafficking than to admit basic fears of your man being aroused by another woman'

It has never occurred to me that my dh would not find other women attractive. I have many fears! My dh bring attracted to another woman is not one of them.

AskAuntLydia

Whoa. Talk about an extreme response...

OP describes her partner as a decent guy. He doesn’t view women as sub-himan. Where did you get that from? It sounds like they have a good relationship but she is upset and disappointed in him and they have a difference of opinion about what the groom should do. To his credit, he could have kept all this quiet but he decided to tell her. Only on planet crazy would this warrant ending a good and loving relationship. There is nothing weak or anti-feminist about that. Working through differences and disagreements is part of adult life, not running away or throwing your toys out of the pram every time something doesn’t fit your ideology. Of course there are red lines but this would not be one for me.

I really hope the OP doesn’t take the nutty advice on here.

chocolatesun, have you read the whole thread?

There's been quite a complex argument here about what this is about but I'll simplify it for you. It's really about respect.

The OP may be able to work through her differences with her OH. But her deep suspicion is that his subliminal view of women, is different from his conscious view of them. And/ or that that view is more extreme than she was expecting.

Or, that he is so weak and easily led by his peer group, that he hasn't got the balls to stand up and say "no, I'm an adult, I don't agree with this, I'm off".

Either of those scenarios means that the OP does not respect him as much.

And some of us want to live with men we have respect for. I feel so sorry for all these women who live with men they think are pack animals, or easily led, or weak, or think with their dicks, or all the other pathetic images of men so many women accept without question. Why would anyone want to live with someone like that? What a disappointment it would be, to spend your life with an ethical weakling.

I get that this is what women call compromise. Living with a man you know is pathetic. I get that you think it's extreme to refuse to compromise. I'm happy to be extreme.

It's about a pervasive objectification of women. Until more of us can say I'm not comfortable with this, it will not be considered as something that not "all men do". It's not about jealousy, it's about someone's ability to indulge in such a detached and basal way to an act with another human being, and expect it to be acceptable, that is offensive. I fear for my son's futures, that if they are ever in this situation they won't have the nerve to take a stand against it. But I tell you this, I'll do everything in my power to let them in on the bigger picture, that it is all an intrinsic part of degrading females, regardless of whether that particular woman "loves her job" or his partner is "cool with it".

it's about someone's ability to indulge in such a detached and basal way to an act with another human being, and expect it to be acceptable, that is offensive.

Yep, that's the crux of it for me as well.

Working through differences and disagreements is part of adult life

Except that this is something the OP believes there can be no compromise. Sex work in any form is intrinsically and thoroughly wrong, and she wants a man who's first reaction on exposure to it is a genuine and visceral disgust.

How are you doing OP?

But I tell you this, I'll do everything in my power to let them in on the bigger picture, that it is all an intrinsic part of degrading females, regardless of whether that particular woman "loves her job" or his partner is "cool with it".

THIS

I fear for my son's futures, that if they are ever in this situation they won't have the nerve to take a stand against it. But I tell you this, I'll do everything in my power to let them in on the bigger picture, that it is all an intrinsic part of degrading females, regardless of whether that particular woman "loves her job" or his partner is "cool with it"

Yes yes yes.

The Op has long fucked off....

There are lots of people on this thread, that would appear to have a lot of knowledge about trafficking and the sex industry, through their profession.

Has it ever occurred to you, that Op's Partner, might not have ANY idea that women could have been trafficked/coerced?

I had NO IDEA, until I started reading Mumsnet. I've had a very ordinary life, and have never been placed in the situation where I've had to even think about it. It's never been on my radar.

He's on a Stag Do. The night ends in a strip joint. If he isn't "in the know" about these places, plus he's pissed up, are we really expecting him to have some sort of Epiphany on the door step?

I went to a Hen do recently. There were semi naked Butlers there. Women were quite open about looking under their pinny's, and they had no pants on. The men were foreign. In that moment, no, I didn't wonder whether they had been coerced. All the girls were on Prosecco and just had a laugh.

I can see why people who have in depth knowledge of the industry, and the terrible things that go on, would definitely avoid such places. And that they would want to shout about the injustice of it all, from the roof tops, BUT, the reality is, that the normal person on the street, who does a normal job, would probably have no idea that any girls were there not of their own free will, and as such, would most certainly treat it as a bit of fun, and then forget about it.

This thread is hilarious.

Did nobody pick up on the double standards of OP not thinking males strippers were as bad as female strippers. Or that OP went on a hen do to a similar location with venues that had "women cavorting naked everywhere as decoration". Yes she said she didn't like it, but didn't say she left and went back to the hotel either. Did she not just do similar to him?

Lichtie if it's about ethics, as is purported, then yes she is just as bad as him.

If it's about something else (jealousy for example) then I'm sure she'll be able to do some mental gymnastics as to how it's different it won't involve admitting the real issue though...

AuntLydia

There is need for you to simplify things for me. How utterly patronising.