Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

Another incident has just occurred to me - is it OK if I post it?

When I was about 10 at the oldest (definitely at primary school), I wrote on a piece of paper saying I didn't like my life and I wanted to die. I folded up the paper and 'posted' it over the fence into the allotments behind our house. DM's sister and my granny were at our house at the time and I remember DM, my aunt and my granny all leaning over the fence to reach the paper (they must have seen me drop it over?)

They read the paper and my granny asked me about it. I just said I'd written it because I was bored. And it was never ever mentioned again. I think I probably had depression even then at such an early age, but neither of my parents ever even spoke about it, let alone tried to help me or find any support from school or the doctor etc.

Could I have been depressed even then? It makes me wonder if I already knew my parents weren't right or normal and that's how my feelings about them (subconsciously?) manifested themselves? Although I did think for a very long time that all parents must be like mine because I didn't have any other point of reference.

Fwiw I definitely think you could have been depressed at 10.

I don’t know if it’s helpful or not, but I had a similar “I don’t want to be here ‘episode’” at a similar age. The resulting conversation with my mum did not go well. I’ve been assessed as having chronic depression and have been on ADs now for 8 years.

Looking back I’ve been depressed for as long as I can remember. Still going through psychotherapy to determine the cause

Sorry, that was very “me” based. I just mean that the very earliest experiences we have can manifest themselves into making us feel shit well into adult life. But I don’t think we necessarily know what the experiences actually are as growing up things seem normal

Please don't apologise! I'm really sorry for what you're going through I wonder whether that sort of age is a turning point in some way for realising things aren't quite right? Starting to spend more time visiting friends and seeing their different family dynamics, maybe?

I completely agree that it's very hard to see the wood for the trees, both because you're 'in' it and because you're so young with no real points of reference, other than friends' families. That was the case for me anyway, I think - the older and more independent I got, the more people and families I met snd the more I realised that the dynamic between my parents and all four of us was not normal or healthy at all. Maybe that's partly why NMs are so terrified by their children becoming independent?

Just writing to say that DM has asked me to call her, so I've agreed to speak to her tonight. Is it bad to be really nervous about talking to your own mum? I never know how she is going to be.

I last saw her on Easter Monday, so 6-ish weeks ago, and invited her up last Saturday but she was busy. I've been messaging on the family group chat to keep in touch every few days about inane stuff but I've avoided phoning because I don't want to hear her voice

June is looking to be a really busy month for me and DP with work, volunteering and friends' birthdays, so I'm not sure when I'll next be able to see my parents. I'm dreading telling them this but it's the truth - I've got my own life and we have a lot on at the moment! AIBU to tell DM this?

My DSis is away at uni and I know she doesn't get this pressure to see our parents. I'm almost certain that she won't get the same pressure after she leaves uni either. For some reason DM is fixated on me.

Her lying about me to other family members doesn't make me inclined to want to speak to her either! Sorry, just venting. I'm in the process of arranging proper counselling.

I don't have any advice apart from trying Grey rock as much as possible www.aconsciousrethink.com/6158/gray-rock-method-dealing-narcissist/ and remembering BOUNDARIES. I know that feeling of being nervous. I expect she'll try to guilt you and/or create a drama.
You're doing nothing wrong. Hope you can get some counselling, I'm sure it will help. I have a really good book about CBT and the kind of thinking patterns your mum has (and mine), I'll look for it and post the name.

Thank you, golondrina - grey rocking sounds like the way forward, I think. I'm dreading that she might try and provoke some sort of drama. She's been telling people at home that she isn't allowed to talk to me, which I'm sure I've never said. I feel like I'm being the worst daughter in the world. I just want my own life!

DP and I have loads of stuff to look forward to over the next month - a visit to London for a friend's 30th, a weekend camping for a concert, I'm going to a forest school with my scout group and DP's friends are visiting from New Zealand. There is loads happening! Even if my relationship with my parents were the sort where I saw them loads, I wouldn't be able to this coming month, I don't think. But I'm fairly sure DM won't see it like that. But yes, boundaries - my rational head says I'm doing nothing wrong, but part of me genuinely thinks I'm a terrible daughter. I half-jokingly said to DP yesterday that I'm the worst daughter and he was really serious that I should stop putting myself down, because if I talk to myself that way then I'll believe it. But I do believe it!

I could have said I'd ring her on Sunday evening but then I'd just dread it all weekend and DP and I are away camping from tomorrow, so I don't want to put a downer on that. It's best I just get the phone call out of the way tonight!

Thank you for your advice!

So she is allowed to be busy but you are not?

Sounds like you are still enmeshed in the fog, but can see glimpses of clear ground.

‘Sorry, can’t do, we are busy. Once everything cams down a bit we can schedule something. Are you going to watch the wedding tomorrow?’- rinse and repeat.

When she starts in on the guilt, ‘sorry you feel that way, but it is what it is -we are busy. Did you see they closed down the book store on the high street?’

When she starts on the attack ‘sorry you feel that way, but as I said we are unavailable. Now, time for me to go and wash my hair. Have a great weekend. Bye’ hand up.

Change the last bit to whatever suits but make the questions about her.
And hang up if it starts to her ridiculous.

Quite a lot of the time I do wonder if I'm being overdramatic or overreacting to my parents' behaviour. Is it/was it really emotional and psychological abuse? Do any of you ever wonder if it was really that bad and if the problem is actually you?

Christmas

Re your comment:-

"Quite a lot of the time I do wonder if I'm being overdramatic or overreacting to my parents' behaviour. Is it/was it really emotional and psychological abuse? Do any of you ever wonder if it was really that bad and if the problem is actually you?"

Actually many posters on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these relationships pages ask themselves the self same questions or versions on the same theme initially. And no you are not overacting, being over sensitive or overreacting at all here. You continue to be abused at your mother's hands; you will ultimately have to drop the rope she holds out to you. The only way you are going to get your own life here is to not have her at all in it; it is as stark as that.

Would you have tolerated any of what your mother has done here from a friend, no you would not. Your mother is no different. The answer to your last question is yes it was that bad and no its not you its her.

It is NOT your fault your mother is as disordered of thinking as she is; you did not make her that way. Her own family did that to her and she has simply conditioned you/trained you from soon after birth to be as conflicted and somewhat still mired in FOG.

And what Aussiebean wrote earlier re handling the phone conversation. Your mother will I think rail actively against any and all boundaries you care to set here though.

Oh god yes. For years. Until I realised that she was following a script. Was reading the stately homes thread and someone, on the other side of the world said that her mum told her ‘I love you, but don’t like you’.

My mum said that to me when I was 13 or 14.

Then all these other, unconnected women all said ‘ME TOO’

that was the moment I realised it wasn’t me. It was part of the process to manipulate and control me. All the other things she did fell into place. I could see what the purpose of what she was doing was and understood that it was her not me. Her need to control. Her need to make me someone/something that I am not.

Although I don’t get all of it of course. Like deliberately scraping my skull hard with her thumb at the back of my neck when I was 3/4 to ‘see if the condotioner was all out just like the do at the hair dressers.’ And not stopping even though I told her it hurt. Was scared to go the hairdresser for years and hated having my hair washed because it hurt. I mean why?

Or making me pay for any phone call I made from the house when I was 14. I was charged 40c. Which is what you pay at a public pay phone. I did not know that home owners were charged 20c. But she did.

Just little petty useless things to deliberately hurt me. And. Ow I think about it, there are so many more.

And that is nowhere near the ‘big’ stuff. Just the small stuff.

But that realisation was mind blowing. So many other people would tell their story and get a chorus of ME TOO.

So yes. I blamed myself for many many years. Just like she planned. But nope. I worked it out and she lost her power then and there.

Thank you, both - sorry, Aussiebean, I missed your post! That's a really great run-through of some lines for the phone call. Absolutely, she is allowed to be busy but I have to be available to her. She and my dad have even driven up to within 5 miles of where DP and I live to watch a sports event and then gone home again without saying anything - I only found out from my grandad by accident that they'd been up. It's completely 'do as I say and not as I do'!

Thanks, Attila - it's good to know I'm not overreacting. I sort of veer from one to the other, sometimes I can see how crazy her actions have been and other times I have an actually physical jolt in my chest of 'oh my god, I've been so awful to my parents'. You're right, I would have stopped pursuing any friendship if the person had behaved like this towards me long ago.

Thank you, both.

Aussiebean x-post again, sorry for being useless!

I'm really sorry that you've been through similar things. It's incredible that there's a script, isn't it? How can so many mothers be almost exactly the same, saying and doing the same things to their daughters? 'Why?' is a question I ask a lot as well, you're not alone. Why do our mothers want to hurt us, control us, manipulate us? I told my granny the other week that I thought this is just what mums were like and she was so upset by that - but we have no point of comparison, really, do we?

I think, in my own experience, there were lots of small things but, until last year when it blew up, no real 'big incidents', IYSWIM? And that's what makes it so hard to put a finger on exactly what is wrong, because it's small incidents throughout your childhood, over years and years. Like the frog being slowly boiled, you don't notice because it's around you all the time and it's not physical hitting or bruising so it's hard to detect.

I'm really sorry you've been through this too, but I'm glad you're in a more healthy place now. You're not on your own

And that's what makes it so hard to put a finger on exactly what is wrong, because it's small incidents throughout your childhood, over years and years. Like the frog being slowly boiled, you don't notice because it's around you all the time and it's not physical hitting or bruising so it's hard to detect.

Yes, and when you are enmeshed, it's all bound up in this falsehood that they love you and that you are "close" when actually you aren't at all, they don't even really know you because they see you as an extension of themselves. You exist to make them feel good about themselves. So, that's why you get the drama and emotional vampirism, because you exist as their emotional prop.

When i read the daughters of narcissistic mothers I nearly fell over, the check list for narcissistic traits, my mum ticked most of them. And it was like reading a script. The denials if you ever try to assert yourself, "you have a vivid imagination, I never said that/that never happened" and all the "sorry not sorry" stuff.

You basically can't have any sort of meaningful relationship with a person like this.

Waves to aussiebean, it's me, G2B!

Golondrina - yes, you're completely right! As I got older, I really started to notice that DM didn't know me at all - there were lots of small instances like 'oh no, Christmas doesn't like mushrooms', 'Christmas loves pugs!' etc. I feel so so sad that she doesn't know who I am, what I'm like, what I do like. She's always bought lots and lots of expensive extravagant gifts (hence my username!) but she freely admits she has no idea what they are or what they do - it's like there's no thought put into it at all. She wants us to have expensive things, I remember her saying, 'but I want you to have a gadget!' when I tried to point out that we didn't need anything. My dad has said exactly the same thing - none of us want presents, we just want to be loved. Each Christmas, she would ask me, 'is it enough? Do you have enough presents?', like I was some sort of Verucca Salt type child who demanded all these things

I've checked off almost all of the checklist for narcissistic mother traits too! And had a few incidents of gaslighting recently which really fuck you up, because how can you be going so mad that you remember things wrong?! It's exhausting. But that book is very eye-opening. I think I'm still in denial and dear god, I just wish I had a normal, loving mum who I could turn to if I needed her.

Thank you for posting

The 'Christmas loves pugs' thing has really got me for some reason I feel so ungrateful but she always bought us clothes that were far too big or not our style or huge fancy playsets when we were little that once she tried to throw away and our dad got them out of the bin and hid them in the garage for us.

None of this is normal, is it?! Do normal parents throw away big gifts they've given their children as punishment? She used to say she'd give us away to Barnardo's when we were bad and sometimes she'd drive off and leave us at home and I'd be convinced I'd never see her again.

G2B. So glad to see you and even happier to see you are well. XX

You ask if this is normal.

Would you do that to your children? Think about how you felt when she made you think she had abondoned you. Now think about deliberately doing that to your child. Would you?

I have some understanding of why my mum is like she is. Her father was a sexist arse who taught her that men were better then girls. Hence, her differing treatment of me and my brothers.

But, despite having a father that ignored her because she was a girl, she made zero effort to change her behaviour or apologise for it. She has been told by all of us how her behaviour has hurt us. Nope. Doesn’t care. She didn’t get any chances, so why should her daughter.

She basically wants me to be her. The presents she gives me, all in her own style. Great top of a 60 year old woman, but awful for a mid 20s single girl.

I am determined not to hurt my children and had some counselling, reading, talking and everything else I can to ensure I respect my children’s boundary’s and not make them feel the way she made me feel.

She did not/could not do that for me and my brothers.

None of what you wrote there is at all normal. Normal for narcissistic family structures yes absolutely. In emotionally healthy families what you describe would not happen.

Narcissists are very disappointing as gift-givers. This is not a trivial consideration in personal relationships. I've seen narcissistic people (and yes MIL I am looking at you here) sweetly solicit someone's preferences , make a show of paying attention to the answer ("Don't you think I'm nice?"), and then deliver something other than what was asked for or a pale imitation of -- and feel abused and unappreciated when someone else gets gratitude for fulfilling the very request that the narcissist evoked in the first place. I've seen this happen often, where narcissists will go out of their way to stir up other people's expectations and then go out of their way to disappoint those expectations

First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it (yes I have done this!) ; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident.

Narcissists give gifts with an eye to maintaining a relationship with the giver and to maintaining control in that relationship. You don’t get expensive gifts from a narcissist because they think you are awesome; you get valuable gifts because they want you to continue to think that they are awesome.

It’s normal to want to show affection for significant others with nice gifts, or to splurge on holidays or nice meals, but we don’t offer these gifts to engender obligation or foster obedience from our partners. But narcissists give out of fear and out of their need to continue the game. Philanthropists are encouraged to “give until it hurts,” but narcissists give because it hurts. The potential pain of losing their audience drives them to do what they feel will keep the admiration flowing.

I would not let your dad off the hook here, he has well and truly thrown you and your sibling under the bus to save his own sorry neck. He is really her enabler and hatchet man here so cannot be at all relied upon either.

You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with your mother. Golondrina is also bang on here and her mother is someone I have read about previously. It is really NOT possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

She used to say she'd give us away to Barnardo's when we were bad and sometimes she'd drive off and leave us at home and I'd be convinced I'd never see her again

Mine told my brother she wished she'd never had him and told him she would have to put him into care becaus he was so badly behaved (he wasn't really). She also did the driving off thing.

My mother couldn't handle it if we didn't like what she liked. So, she just could not cope with the idea that, although I like plants to look at and stuff, I'm not really interested in gardening. Or tennis.

Mine can be very generous indeed but there are ALWAYS string attached. Always.

Waves to Atila! You once said to me "you will never have any peace will your mother is in your life" and it took me a while to get there, but you were right.

Thank you both. Aussiebean, no I'd never treat my children like that. I can't even really imagine doing it! Imagine being so furious with a child that you pretend to abandon them, storm out of the house in a silent rage and drive off with no explanation?

In reality, she almost always went to the supermarket and she'd return a couple of hours later, but it was the way she'd storm out and get in the car and drive away - I know I'd wait for what felt like forever, wondering if I'd ever see my mum again and wondering how I'd managed to upset her so much. That sounds so dramatic written down! But I must have been quite small, definitely at primary school, so it felt like a huge deal.

Aussiebean, I'm glad you've sort of managed to get your head around why your mum is like she is. With mine, I'm not really sure - her parents seem lovely, but I'm well aware that people can behave very differently as grandparents to how they were as parents. Her mum in particular has actually been really supportive, once I admitted what has been going on for almost 25 years!

I agree re. the presents, Attila - my mum wanted to look like a fabulous mum and she was in competition with other relatives and other mums outside the family over how many presents she gave us and how much she spent on us. Just this Christmas just gone, my gran mentioned how our hometown is the place where people spend on average the most on Christmas presents in the UK, and she quoted a figure. DM feigned shock and said something like 'is that per family or per person?' and my gran said it was the figure for spending on each person, and DM said 'oh yes, that's about right'. Because she wanted my gran to know that she spends hundred and hundreds of pounds on us and that makes her a good mother!

She'd show off to my school friends if they came round and my cousin (who she absolutely hates - she's six years younger than I am but my mum bears a grudge against her like nothing you've ever seen. Absolute, open, obvious hatred for a child). Cousin commented on how many presents were in our living room on Christmas Day and I'd already taken mine upstairs because I was embarrassed by the amount of 'stuff' and didn't want all of my extended family to see how much there was and think we were spoilt brats. Mum went 'oh yes and Christmas has lots more upstairs!'

I felt so ungrateful when she and my dad sent me presents for my birthday just gone (I turned 24) - a dashcam and expensive satnav for my car. They know I just use Google Maps on my phone, they've seen me drive away from their house using it. And chocolates and dairy liqueurs when they know I avoid dairy and couldn't have alcohol when I was on roaccutane for my skin. I actually cried because, although they aren't bad presents, it's just not me.

The same before Christmas, a huge hamper of food and a set of gin bottles - I'd spoken to my mum just weeks before and she'd asked if I could have alcohol and I said no, but something like a tiny bit in jam (she'd seen strawberry and prosecco jam) wouldn't hurt. But a set of bloody gin bottles!!

Attila, you're right about my dad but I find that the hardest bit. He tried to help, with things like taking our toys out of the bin but he didn't protect us from the worst of our mum's behaviour.

Just to clarify, my parents didn't see me cry on my birthday and of course I said thank you for the gifts! I cried to DP later on and felt horrible and ungrateful about the whole thing.

Sorry, x-post with you, golondrina. How can they all be so similar? Driving away and leaving us? My mum struggles to know what we like but she doesn't really have any hobbies or interests herself so she is incredibly hard to give gifts to. But she overdid it so much - we had years and years' worth of presents in a tiny house, my bedroom was like a storage room for all the presents by the time I left home. I was in the box room and it's just piled high with things that my mum had given me for birthdays and Christmases. Every year I felt like I had to get rid of things before my birthday and Christmas because I knew there would be all of these new things I didn't have space for in my room. DM didn't really think ahead about things like that.

The phone call went ok - she asks lots of questions about who I'll be with when I mention doing certain activities, because I'm not supposed to spend time with DP's family.

I feel like I can't even talk about DP to my mum. She is so envious that I get on with his family and like spending time with them, her envy and jealousy have poisoned our family.

Your not supposed to spend it with you DPs family 🙄

Oh god.

My mum is definitely jealous of my sil family. They are lovely, welcoming, well loved by everyone and (horror) very successful financially. (They worked very hard to get there)

Plus my brother enjoys spending time with them.

She has learnt not to bitch about them anymore because no one listens to her.