Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

Honestly after the weekend you've just has why on Earth are you still
Caring about their feelings in all this. It was miserable on a normal weekend without missing out on stuff you do want to actually do!!

Text/phone your parents "I know you haven't invited us yet but DP and I have decided we want to do our own thing for Christmas and New Year from now on. We're free on Boxing Day if you'd like to get together then"

There will be a shit storm for you from them whether you go (them making sniping comments) or you do something else so you may as well do something enjoyable!

Are you still having counselling?

I know this is really hard and have only experienced it with my ex's mother. His sister finally went no contact with her a few years ago but was in her 40s.

Nothing you do or say or don't do it don't say will please your mother because it isn't about love. It's about drama. Pitting people against each other. Extravagant gifts aren't given out of generosity or wanting to lavish people you love, but again, as attention seeking, look what a great person I am. Wanting you to visit isn't because she wants to see you, but to have more people make an effort for her. Attention to your sister isn't because she loves your sister more, but because she's pitting you against her. She has everyone dancing to her time and even when everyone dances to her tube, she'll find something to create hurt and drama.

So please please be kind to yourself and tell them your plans. You'll get grief but at least you'll have a nice, drama free time. You would get grief anyway. All the best op. You sound lovely and you're still young. Don't let her keep hurting you.

Hi aibu

re your comment:-
"I wouldn't want my mum to have anything to do with my and DP's future children but I'll have to put up and have only supervised contact (by me or DP)".

No, you certainly do not have to put up and have only supervised contact. You will need to keep them well away from your parents, if DPs parents are nice then focus on them.

Your mother and father have not changed fundamentally since your own childhood and such people make for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures. She will do similar harm to them as has been done to you and it will happen too right in front of your very eyes. A pinch, a look of disdain, favouritism shown to the eldest child; you will recognise that and it will hurt you all over again.

How is the counselling going?.

It is also NOT selfish and wrong for you to be wanting to do your own thing. This is called being an adult; your mother in particular wants to keep you dependent on her because she sees you as an extension of her. She is basically an adult with the maturity of a six year old.

I'd tweak the text message that @RandomMess suggested to be something like this:
"Hi everyone, as we're not sure what you guys are doing for Christmas day and I know an invite hasn't been set to us yet, I wanted to get in there first to let you know that DP and I have decided we want to do our own thing for Christmas and New Year from now on. We're free on Boxing Day if you'd like to get together then"
Then send it to your parents, sister and anyone else that you think might be about to invite you to do something with them on Christmas day.
Best of luck!

Your 25. Just say no and fuck the guilt out of the window. Seriously what would you say to a student who was in a similar position to you and they come for guidance.

You and your sister really have been cast in the golden child/scapegoat roles.

Whatever you decide to say, just write it as a fact, not a question. Don’t put anything else in there that requires an answer so you can turn off your phone for the rest of the day and spoil yourself.

Your sister's being very naive. Her bf will probably want to spend time with his family at Christmas, so she'll need to approach that with your parents. At your age, it's normal to make a choice between who you spend Christmas with: your feelings of dread about telling y I ur mum is because you are firmly enmeshed in the FOG (look it up). You're an adult, OP, you are ALLOWED to spend Christmas where you want and you need to Grey rock if your mum pulls her emotional bullshit on you.

Thank you all for your responses, I really appreciate it. I was waiting to reply to you on my laptop but the work network has blocked Mumsnet (probably wise!)

RandomMess, I think it's the conditioning. I desperately want to be a 'good girl', or at least not to make people unhappy, but I seem to be very good at causing discord in my family! I had some counselling for a couple of months but I couldn't afford to keep having it and so I'm trying to get by at the moment by using the tactics my counsellor taught me while I save up to go back again.

Musti, the gifts are very much out of a need to show everyone 'look at what a great mum I am'. She's toned it down this year so far but it's made Christmas feel a very sort of uncomfortable time for me (hence the name!) because of having to take my part in this performance rather than actually enjoying the day.

Attila, I really do want to keep my children away from negative influences like my mum. My sister will take it badly, though, because she acknowledges that mum has been awful to me but she says that mum and dad are different people now. In my experience, they've got worse as mum realises she's losing control.

Thank you for the text, RandomMess and Whatchamacallit. I'll send it later on today (I know this needs doing sooner rather than later). Absolutely bricking it. That in itself is a sign that my parents/family aren't/isn't normal, isn't it?

User, that's interesting because that's a strategy my counsellor asked me to use, to pretend to advise somebody else. I'd like to think that I'd tell them what you've all told me! Life is too short to make yourself miserable by buoying up people who don't care how you feel.

Aussiebean, I think we really have been cast in those roles. It was less apparent even a year ago than it is now.

Thank you Maelstrop and everyone who's replied.

My eldest hasn't always spent Christmas with us and I do miss her (younger than you!) but it's one day and it's "normal" she's being a self centred teen

I'm not offended or hurt, I am looking forward to the day her plans no longer change 10 times and we can ask her to do something like dogsit overnight without it being a major drama and her cancelling

Just giving you a parent perspective to show you how abnormal your parents are! We have told her what we are doing ( she's the eldest of 4) and that she and her boyfriend are welcome. I expect we'll know for certain Christmas Eve

Hi Christmas - I've been following this but not posted as you've had such good advice from others - all I want to say (apart from you're doing really well to extricate yourself and in seeing what they are really like! Keep going!) is with the message.

I would change it to "Hi everyone, as we're not sure what your plans are for Christmas day, I thought I'd let you know that DP and I will be doing our own thing for Christmas and New Year. We will be free to visit on Boxing Day if that fits in with you."

Plans already decided, and not for changing. If Boxing Day doesn't suit them then never mind, that is your only free day so you will try to catch up another time in the New Year (which is 12 months long, so not committing to a visit at all).

Stick to your guns - we are all rooting for you!

I don't understand why you won't just go NC? Write to them, explain why and wish them well?

Unfortunately just going NC is not easy and many feel that they have done everything possible before hand.

Also writing a letter to toxic people is considered a bad idea as it gives them ammunition to beat you with.

Definitely look into going back to counselling - it's well worth the money if it's helping you. And yes, message about Christmas and stick to your plan.

Powerless, I agree with Aussiebean about going NC - unfortunately it isn't that straightforward, or at least I don't feel it is for me personally. My mum has either never understood the effect of her behaviour on me or refused to accept it, so I really think she would start a smear campaign against me with my grandparents if I were to go NC. My relationship with both my grannies and with my grandad are very important to me and I don't want to give my mum the power to ruin them. Likewise, I would not be able to see my dad and my sister would turn (even more) against me.

Mum isn't above lying about me to make her point. Interestingly, she told people last year that I had moved without telling her where I had gone, even though I had written down my address for her. Now I have moved without giving her my address as a result of her behaviour. It's like it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I read a post from a MNer who said that her mum asked whether she would be able to see her unborn GC, and going NC hadn't even occurred to the poster. Later she did go NC and her mum wasn't able to see the GC - it's like women like our mums somehow foresee the outcomes of their behaviour but can't stop.

About writing a letter - I've already posted about this incident, but mum sent me an email last year which, to paraphrase, said that if she walked under a lorry tomorrow, I'd be sorry I didn't spend more time with her. When I pointed out in my reply that that was just supposed to make me feel guilty, she rang me up in tears begging me not to be silly. But a non-negotiable message is my best bet, I think. I've drafted one and I'm going to show DP later.

I really worry about the effect all this drama with my family has on how he sees our relationship. I'm not sure I'm worth all of the associated negativity and dysfunctionality (is that a word?!) I really feel for him in this and I'd totally understand if he were to say he saw no long-term future for us because of what my family are like and because of the anxiety it causes me, but I'd be utterly bloody heartbroken. There's only so much shit somebody is willing to take for their girlfriend, surely? He has a heart of gold but I'm not sure how much more he'll put up with - which is why I need to get my act together and stand up to them, isn't it?

Butterymuffin, I really do need to go back to counselling! I'll have to go into my savings but I think what I'd advise somebody else is that it's an investment in your mental health and consequently in your future happiness and prosperity - so it's a wise investment! (Not to the point of bankrupting themselves, obviously )

Hi aibu

re your comment:-
"I read a post from a MNer who said that her mum asked whether she would be able to see her unborn GC, and going NC hadn't even occurred to the poster. Later she did go NC and her mum wasn't able to see the GC - it's like women like our mums somehow foresee the outcomes of their behaviour but can't stop".

You're right in one respect here; she cannot stop.

Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents to boot. I do not think such mothers like yours ever foresee the outcome of their behaviours; its more like the now adult child has had a full realisation that contact with their family of origin has done them absolutely no favours at all. Also the act of them becoming parents often sets such chains of events off because they would never treat their own children in the ways they were (and remain) treated.

Such women often attempt to use other family members to use them as flying monkeys to do their bidding I hope that neither your nans or grandad will fall for such tactics from your mother but they may well believe her. As for your dad, well I would not let him off the hook here at all because he has thrown you under the bus more than once. He has failed abjectly to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviour out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has really acted as her hatchet man here and cannot be at all relied upon either. And nor can your sister.

Ultimately I feel the only way you are going to get any real peace here is to have no contact whatsoever with your family of origin.

Re your comment:-
"About writing a letter - I've already posted about this incident, but mum sent me an email last year which, to paraphrase, said that if she walked under a lorry tomorrow, I'd be sorry I didn't spend more time with her. When I pointed out in my reply that that was just supposed to make me feel guilty, she rang me up in tears begging me not to be silly. But a non-negotiable message is my best bet, I think. I've drafted one and I'm going to show DP later".

I have written before that tears can be manipulative and your mother is at the very least a master in manipulation. If your mother did walk under a lorry tomorrow well so be it. She is not ever going to do that, its all said to wrong foot you some more. Why would you anyway want to spend time with this woman who in any case upsets you so much?. This whole idea of wanting to be a good girl, seeking their approval (you are still looking for that) is really doing you no favours at all. Its such conditioning that keeps you trapped in your own fear, obligation and guilt re them. Do you think that your family of origin here feel guilty; no not a chance.

Please refrain from sending her a message, even a supposed non negotiable one. It will be used by her to tear you further to shreds; ANY words from you no matter how nice, guarded or diplomatic WILL be used against you, its really ready made ammo for her to lob back at you. Radio silence really does need to be maintained here.

BACP are good re counselling and they do not charge the earth.

Do your employers offer any sort of counselling?.

What does your man here think of and about your family of origin?.

If he is worth it he will stand with you no matter what. Its you he has chosen to be with her, not your family of origin. It is THEY who cause all the drama and negativity in your life; these people made you the scapegoat for all their inherent ills.

Attila, thanks for your replies. I do agree about my dad, but so many other people have let my mum's behaviour go as well. Even now, when she's been behaving the way she has towards me for the past year/eighteen months or however long it's been, I'm the difficult one who's supposed not to upset her. Nobody is looking at the situation and saying to my mum, 'hang on, you shouldn't actually treat your adult daughter like this.'

I think people sometimes don't take her behaviour seriously because it's so ludicrous. At my granny's 80th birthday last year, she commented in quite a strop to a distant relative that I preferred to spend time with my boyfriend than with my parents. He laughed and said, 'well one day I'll tell you why that is', because it's ludicrous isn't it - of course a woman in her early 20s would rather live with and spend time with her partner than her parents, it's normal.

I do see what you mean about not sending a message, but I really think that I need to let them know sooner rather than later about my plans for Christmas. I think they're waiting for me to say something (either that I will or won't be there), but mum will never actually ask. I'd rather be up front about it and then at least I'll know that I did the right thing and tried to behave like a rational and responsible adult about it.

DP obviously realises how difficult they are, but it's difficult to gauge his feelings because he would never openly say that they're crazy etc., but he did say that whatever I decide to do for Christmas, I need to not feel guilty. He knows they're going to kick off about me having Christmas with him but I just need to stick to my guns if it's what I want, which is true.

I understand your desire to do what is right and ‘normal’ with your parents.

No matter what they do, you can be sure you did the right thing. That will help your resolve and cement the crazy.

My brother tried for years to manager our mothers expectations. Kept trying to get me to ‘manage’ her. I told him it doesn’t work, but he kept trying. But at the time he lived the other side of the world. It wasn’t until he moved back with a wife (competition) that he realised that it was worthless. ‘Irrational’ was the word he eventually used.

But he knew he did the right thing, so there is less guilt on his part as he keeps her at arms length.

My dh is very supportive. It was hard for him to understand as his parents are lovely, but he was supportive. ‘Luckily’ one of his employees now has a similar mother as she is enmeshed in the FOG. he has read some of her manipulation emails and he is getting it more and more. To the point that although he knew he wasn’t to ever leave me alone with her, he now is concerned to ensure I am never alone with her.