Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality. It works much better than you may think. Anyone is susceptible to gaslighting, and it is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders. It is done slowly, so the victim doesn't realize how much they've been brainwashed. For example, in the movie Gaslight (1944), a man manipulates his wife to the point where she thinks she is losing her mind.

I think that DM's behaviour recently has been quiet and insidious and so I don't have any 'proof' that going NC is justified, if you see what I mean?

this isn't a court of law. You don't need to have to justify it. If it's healthier for you, then this is what you have to do.

Insidious is as bad or worse than overt shit, because it gets into your head and starts making you doubt yourself.

Thanks, Attila, I'd heard that's where the term comes from. I don't know whether DM deliberately gaslights or whether she genuinely remembers things differently/rewrites history to suit her. It is a bloody mindfuck though, because obviously then I start doubting my version of events.

Sorry, SeaEagleFeather, cross-post. By justify, I mean to other members of the family, I think, like DM's mum. In recent weeks, she's been just as bad as DM, although I'd always seen her as really reasonable and somebody to confide in. I told her I'd be down on Easter Monday but had prior engagements on the Saturday and Sunday so couldn't make it earlier, and then she told me she was 'disappointed' not to see me on Sunday. I'd always said I couldn't make Sunday!

I'm so sad that this is happening. To everybody else it probably seems out of the blue, because (to people on the outside) we've always been so close and DM is such a wonderful person, pillar of the community.

My DSis was at home with them during the holidays and she said the atmosphere between DM and DF was awful. DF came to DSis and asked her to sort of mediate and said that it all stems from a problem 'from over 25 years ago'. DSis rightly said that she'd only been alive for 20-ish years so what did she have to do with it? They're so bloody cryptic. I think that they both know their marriage is essentially over but they want us to paper over the cracks for them like we used to.

It doesn’t matter if she ‘genuinely ‘ believes it or not.

You are trying to rationalise irrational behaviour.

It is quite possible that she does genuinely think she is an amazing mother. But that is only because she is so invested in keeping that narrative that she will literally ignore all evidence to the contrary.

When we tried to have these conversations with my mother, you could see the wall go up the moment we said anything that went against the way she saw herself.

There was zero chance of that wall coming down because she would have to admit and apologise for decades of abuse and mistreatment. She is not going to do that. So I have accepted that and we don’t speak.

I'm really sorry that your mother is the same, Aussiebean. Did it help you to try to have the conversations with your mother? Even though I know these people don't change, I wonder if you found it useful at the time just to be up-front with her about how her behaviour was affecting you?

I find that having to hide my feelings for such a long time has made it really difficult to open up to people about the emotional abuse/neglect. I actually had a long talk with my gran (DM's mum) last night, who had been disappointed not to see me. She had had no idea about the extent of DM's behaviour! DM has never got on with her and my gran assumed that she was the only person DM treated that way. She was shocked when I said that she behaves very similarly towards me and my DF too.

It was really helpful to let somebody else in the family know - everybody outside the immediate family unit of me, DSis, DF and DM has the 'perfect family' image given to them. Before I told my gran, she said that she couldn't understand how my relationship with DM could have changed so much in recent months when things were so wonderful so recently - but then I owned up and told her how things have really been. She said it was very eye-opening. It must be so hard to have a daughter who behaves in such a way.

Sorry, just rambling again. I'll take this all to my next counselling appointment in a couple of weeks. Love to you all

It's such a relief already to not be keeping DM's secrets any more. I've read that a lot of families like mine are very secretive - is that the case with any of you? My gran was actually very understanding, I don't think that came across in my post just now. She told me that I'm not alone, which made me cry, because I have felt so lonely. There's such a stigma around poorly behaved mothers, isn't there?

I think that's part of the reason I felt I could never say anything to any of my family, because mothers are so revered in our culture and so I had to protect DM's image in a way, does that make sense?

Hi Christmas

re your comment:-

"Did it help you to try to have the conversations with your mother? Even though I know these people don't change, I wonder if you found it useful at the time just to be up-front with her about how her behaviour was affecting you? "

In my experience and opinion no, telling her as well how you feel bad just makes them think ah good and keep putting the boot in. People like your mother really do not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Your mother does not care not empathises with how her words and actions are affecting you. I am also not surprised that she does not get on with your nan. I have often found as well that so called pillars of the community too are really anything but behind closed doors. You do not have to paper over their cracks any longer either.

Abuse like you've had as well from your mother to date thrives on secrecy; bust this whole thing wide open now. You do not need your mother's approval in any case not that she would ever give it to you anyway.

Attila, I see what you mean - is it almost a case of her realising she has any power over me is a good thing for her? Even if that power is fear/obligation/guilt?

My gran said that DM can have a very cutting tongue and that things will be fine if you do everything her way but woe betide you if you decide to do something she doesn't like, basically. It's a relief and so sad at the same time - it's a relief that now other people know how DM has treated us and actually she's been doing it to many many other people too, but I'm so sad for my gran that her daughter is causing so many people such pain and suffering.

I know that my gran is in contact with a lot of the wider family and has being speaking to them about DM's 'crisis', so I'm hopeful that she will pass on the information and not feel that she has to keep this a secret like I did, but I'm not sure.

You're right, Attila, DM does thrive on secrets. She didn't tell us about my gran having cancer (about ten years ago), even though my gran had asked her to and was due to start chemo - she didn't want to turn up with no hair and for us not to know what was going on! DM eventually told us one Sunday when she walked in with the shopping, she threw the bags on the floor and said, 'granny's got cancer.'

Her MS has been kept secret from us until now as well, and she keeps secrets from my gran, like when I was struggling with my Study Abroad placement, my gran would just be told I was 'fine'. Bizarre bizarre behaviour. My gran and I were trying to work out last night where it comes from and we don't have an answer, she's just wired wrong. Gran was talking about how it's not a bad thing to have a cry now and again if you need to, if circumstances are hard it's OK to say that things are tough and that everybody has all of these emotions which are fine to have. It's such a different message to the one we were given growing up. At least I know that I will try to do things very differently for my own DC.

We had our conversation, along with my two brothers and their wives, way before we even had a concept of narcissism.

It was kind of a family meeting, very formal and I got to tell her I don’t trust her.

But nope. Nothing

I guess at the time it was a big deal. Good to actually say it. But nothing change. And once I learnt about narcs it was a real ‘ah’ moment.

It’s not me, I can’t do/say anything that will change her and that realisation helped WAY more then me having my say. With narcs you are just talking at a brick wall while hoping they will become a welcoming door.

You have already had that conversation with her. You have told her how her behaviour makes you feel. But you told the brick wall.

Once you accept that. Then you get to decide how you live with it. NC/continues presence. What ever you wish. But now it won’t hurt as much.

Btw, when I stopped keeping her secret, it was amazing how many people actually suspected it and have been supportive.

It was a tad annoying, would have saved years of agony if someone had actually said to me ‘the way she treats you is not right’ but I learned it a lot earlier then others.

Really really reminds me of my mother. We were "very close" too and everyone who meets my mum thinks she's great. Our relationship was definitely enmeshed. She followed me across the world and basically gatecrashed my life and then turned on my DH. Long story but we've now been NC for 4 years.

I’d text back in caps with ‘AT NO POINT DID I TELL YOU NOT TO BE IN TOUCH. THAT IS A LIE”. Just cos I can be very aggressive with my not so awful but with tendencies mother.

I think low contact is the way forward for now. Remove her from Facebook/any social media. I say for now because I reckon eventually you’ll want to go nc. Do you feel like a bad person when you want space from her or at the idea that you won’t be in contact with her? Does she make you feel guilty? That’s hard to let go of, but you absolutely have the right to go nc if she is making you angry/anxious.

I’m so glad you’ve confided in your gran. Hopefully now you won’t feel quite so alone, and hopefully you’ll use it to draw a little strength

Aussiebean, I'm glad that you've managed to find some peace and sort of acceptance in spite of the brick wall thing. I think that no longer keeping the secret is such a big thing, because when you keep something like this inside you, knowing that your mum emotionally neglected and abused you (I still find that hard to write), that kind of thing eats away you from the inside. It's interesting how so many people suspect things, but emotional abuse is so hard to pin down, there's no physical trace of it.

Golondrina, I'm sorry you've been through this too, welcome to the club Are you happy being NC? I hope you've managed to find some physical and mental space from her now.

Shizzlesticks, it was very tempting!! I decided to ignore that part all together but my gran knows now that DM isn't telling the truth when she goes around telling people that she isn't allowed to talk to me. Part of me doesn't want to give her the satisfaction of NC because it'd give her a really good sob story! I agree with you that LC is the way to go at the moment - I've blocked her from seeing my instagram and hidden/muted her on facebook, so that at least if and when she messages, it doesn't flash up on my phone, which seems so intrusive.

I think eventually I will go NC too, but not for a few years. I think things will be different if/when DP and I have children, because at the moment I think all of this seems a bit mad and weird to him, but when he has children he'll see what sort of impact DM's behaviour could have on them and want to protect them. The idea of NC does make me feel like a bad person, yes! I'd feel guilty because she'd likely be in bed crying like when I moved towns and because she'd take it all out on my dad again.

Thank you, ohfourfoxache (I love your name! ) I'm glad too. We did have another chat last night because we wanted to meet up this weekend without DM - me, DP, my gran and her partner - but my gran is worried about the consequences if we don't tell DM and she finds out later. We also said that it feels like we'd be lying too, and it's DM's lies, among other things, that have caused all of this in the first place. So we're not going to meet for now but next time my gran and I are with DM, she is going to mention meeting me in front of DM, so that DM is aware that we will meet and there is no sneaking around, it's all out in the open.

It's sad that we're still playing DM's games and that she still has this much control (over even her own mother!) but it seems the most sensible way for now. Now I owe DP a Sunday lunch out because I got his hopes up

Christmas

re your comment:-

"I think eventually I will go NC too, but not for a few years".

Why not now though, a few more years of her nonsense would really sink you simply lower than you are now and she has done quite enough damage already. What do you get out of this relationship with your mother?. Fear, obligation and guilt most certainly.

"I think things will be different if/when DP and I have children, because at the moment I think all of this seems a bit mad and weird to him, but when he has children he'll see what sort of impact DM's behaviour could have on them and want to protect them".

He should be seeing the impact your mother has on you now; if he does not then its unlikely he will do so when children come into being.

"The idea of NC does make me feel like a bad person, yes! I'd feel guilty because she'd likely be in bed crying like when I moved towns and because she'd take it all out on my dad again".

The only bad person in this whole scenario here is your mother and she is batshit bad. Your own fear, obligation and guilt really do need to be addressed because there is no way that she at all feels guilty about the ways in which you have been treated by her to date. Tears as well from such disordered people are mere exercises in further trying to manipulate. Your Dad should not be let off the hook here either because he is really both her enabler (women like your mother always need a willing enabler to help them) and hatchet man here as well as being a weak bystander. He has abjectly failed to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviours and has done his bit to throw you under the bus as well. Rather you and your sister than he to his way of thinking.

"Part of me doesn't want to give her the satisfaction of NC because it'd give her a really good sob story!"

Her telling some sob story to her acolytes (these people really do not have friends) is far less important than your own mental well being in the long run. The above really is no good reason not to go no contact. A point to further note is that low contact often leads to no contact.

am I happy being NC? well, yes is the short answer. Life is so much calmer and more peaceful than when she was in it and I have bloomed personally and professionally without her squashing me down emotionally and just taking up so much brain space. I have got a professional qualification and set uo my own business, I don't think I'd have been able to do that before. I'd probbaly be divorced now if I were still in contact and I'm a much better parent without her malign influence and stress and doubting myself. And her meddling in ALL relationships. She made my DS her favourite, so that's something to bear in mind about having children in contact with a person like this.

Attila told me whne I was originally posting about my mum (as badtoworse and goodtobetter) that I would never have any peace with my mum in my life and it has proved to be more true than I could imagine.

Having said that, it's not been easy. it's never an esy decision and my mum went scorched earth when I finally did it and slagged me off to the people who bought her house when she moved and they believed it all and gossiped about me in the village where we live. My uncle took her side so I'm not in contact with him eaither, although that's not big loss.

On the whole it saved me, but it wsn't easy. I will never talk to her again I don't think, because there is no point. Nothing is ever her fault, it's like talking to a brick wall.

I am a huge fan of natural consequences - when she messages pushing for more time, reply "I simply have too much work on to be able to take an extra days off. In fact, your message prompted me to make a list and I'll probably have to leave early on the Monday as well because there's just too much that needs to be done before I go back for the new term."

She had one whole day - she pushed for more, she loses some of the day she was getting before.

My gran and I were trying to work out last night where it comes from and we don't have an answer, she's just wired wrong

I am so glad your gran has validated your feelings.Narcisstic people are amazing at making you feel you are the issue but their behaviour will be toxic to others as well.
It is something I have had to learn over time..time will always reveal what and who they are.

My ex had what I now know is a narc mum, however I had zero knowledge (pre internet days) and tried to make sense of something so irrational.Ex was also abusive although only once we had married.
I had assumed it was nurture that caused his behaviour but like you suspect it's also nature/brain wiring.
There are many stages to go through often before you can be NC, awareness is one, grieving and acceptance is another.It takes time but thankfully you have support.

Thank you all again for your posts. I think I agree that there are stages people like us have to go through before they can cut contact and at the moment I'm not there completely.

I had a follow-up appointment today and the counsellor confirmed that DM has been and is still being emotionally and psychologically abusive. It's weirdly a relief to hear another person in real life say it.

There is an incident from when I was about 16-ish that I wanted to ask about but I haven't been sure how to. Basically when I was about that age, I worked out how to have an orgasm. One Sunday morning, both my parents were out shopping and so I thought the coast was clear, began to do my thing. They came home and DM walked into my room without knocking literally a second or so after I finished. And she was sitting on the bed, putting her hand on my head saying 'oh you look really warm, your heart's pounding, are you ill, I'll make you a cup of tea' and proceeds to come back with a cup of tea, walking in without knocking again.

The whole scenario makes me feel gross and I still get weird almost 'flashbacks' to it now. She must have known? Is it just another example of her chronic boundary invasion or something weirder?

Bumping hopefully

Having problems with my own mother also. Out of the 4 of us children, Me being the eldest, she had me young, I have no bond with her whatso ever, she is jealous if I ring my father, who I get along with really well, jealous when I come home and I am looking good, tells me that I love myself etc. She never contacts me , unless my father forces her to, I try and give her nice gifts for mothers day , birthday etc, and spend a lot of money on them and she never appreciates them, but if my siblings give her a box of chocs from the pound shop she is over the moon. I just don't feel she loves me at all. And I've kind of given up on caring tbh. I have my own family in dh and the kids and I live 2 hours away . It does depress me though because I think the inner child in you is always seeking approval from your parents. Sad isn't it. But I think she didn't get much love from her parents as a child and as a result found it hard to reciprocate it to me.

Narcissistic mothers can be quite odd about sexuality and sex. The boundaries often are missing there too.
www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/narcissistic-mothers-strange-sexuality/
Mine didn't do anything like that but was a bit odd about attitudes to sex. She wanted to seem liberal and with it but was really quite a prude.

FairyFace I'm really sorry you're having to deal with something similar. I completely agree about the seeking approval thing - it's hard to break that habit. Have you had any counselling? I'm just starting having some now, although I did have a six-week course at uni a few years ago which is when it started to dawn on me that my parents' behaviour is the root of many of my issues! It really helps to talk about things

golondrina thank you for the link, I've found that site really useful. I think my NM definitely has a warped attitude towards sex. When I had my first boyfriend at 14ish, her idea of 'the talk' was 'don't go upstairs'. That was literally it. She left me in the house alone with him. Nothing happened because I felt I wasn't ready but how crap is that?

The invasion of personal space and boundaries happened a lot, like having to wedge the bathroom door open when we were having a bath (although they never supervised washing and I was visibly dirty at school ).

She definitely has this liberal/prude thing going on. The lack of sex/period talk was weirdly jarring with the incident I described above, as well as walking round with no top on going 'it's fine, you can look!'

I'm not sure it crosses the line into sexual abuse as well but I do think it's weird behaviour.