Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

A good counsellor listens non-judgementally and really, really does not come out with statements like "it would be a shame if your mother lost her daughter".

She was very unwise in making some sort of judgement about that after just one session. She seems to have made a few strange comments - the "two sides to every story" is true, but in the context of a counselling session it's a very odd thing to say.

Agreed she had her own agenda and I think you need to avoid her like the plague.

Listen to your gut!!!

OP I haven’t read all of the thread but wanted to say you haven’t fine anything wrong and your parents are not treating you like an adult. They are too needy and agree your mother is showing signs of naraccisim.

I’m in my mid 40’s and realised my mum is a narcissist. My dad has passed away and the behaviour has got worse.

I could right pages and pages on the things she’s done to me. I’m the scapegoat (even though I went to university, have a great job and am independent). My brother (the golden child) now in his 40’s - is divorced, has 3 children to 2 different women (not yo his EW), has no qualifications and she’s constantly bailing him out. But nothing I do is as good as my brother. The breaking point for me was when she rung me to tell me my dad was dying and she slammed the phone down on me. When he did pass and I cried I was told to stop crying as I had no reason to be upset as he was her husband. She now has another partner who has taken in the enabler role and dispute him being very close to his 2 children when she met him she has now alienated him from his children (of course he has been party to thus but he’s too weak).

At Christmas I didn’t receive a present. It was my birthday in June and I received a card (but not even a call to say hello). Haven’t spoken to her since Christmas. But you know what? It’s a relief. I used to dread ringing her.

Sorry to whittle on.....

I’ve realised you can’t change these people. My mum had a very hRd childhood and she’s too damaged (not that she would ever think her behaviour is wrong). To the outside world my mum is wounderful - key member of the church, does loads for charity. But to the family (must of who she has alienated herself from) she’s hard, cold and has no empathy.

I have realised you can’t control them but you can control how you feel and how you react.

Thank you all for your replies. It felt very unlike any other counselling appointment I've had before and I left feeling uneasy about it. SeaEagleFeather, there being two sides to every story is something that I'm always really conscious of, I think, but I felt like the counsellor was almost doubting my side of the story? Because why would my mum react like that if I hadn't done anything to provoke her?

While I was waiting to go in to my appointment, two of the people who work there were chatting to a third person, who I think was just a friend, and were saying how some people come to counselling and just blame other people for their problems - I think that planted the seed of doubt in my mind, because isn't that exactly what I'm doing?

Thank you for sort of confirming what I already thought. I'll cancel my appointment with them next week.

golondrina that would be great, if you wouldn't mind, thank you! The sitting too close like you describe is exactly what DM does, it's a complete violation of physical boundaries.

NorthernSpirit I'm so sorry that this has happened to you too my mum is very very similar - chair of governors at a primary school, acts like she is very supportive of a lot of people (I remember her having long phone conversations with school people where she called them 'my dear', which always felt really jarring because she's never spoken to me like that). Teachers are the devil incarnate though, trying to bankrupt schools by demanding a living wage (I think this is only because DP and I teach!)

Hugs to you, it's bloody tough figuring this all out

mm, a pernicious influence in my life who was very unkind to me also volunteered, was a pillar of the community, well liked heh. I think it happens quite a bit.

Most people who volunteer etc do it for the right reasons but I think a minority do it so they can feel they are good people and kinda ignore the desperate need within their own family; or worse, actively, subtly act to impoverish and control their childrens' lives for the worse.

I'll PM you.

I think it is great you've thought better of this particular counselor. You don't want to go only to be told what you want to hear, but there must be some rapport and understanding with the counselor to begin with. Narcissists are very toxic but there still isn't enough understanding of toxic parenting. It's quickly dismissed.

I have been reading your thread and I see so many parallels with my own mother. You have to maintain iron clad boundaries. Therapy should be a safe space for you. It's not there to make you feel guilty or shameful. And going to therapy is taking responsibility and constructive. Don't listen to anyone who details you.

• derails

Thank you, golondrina, I really appreciate it.

whatwouldKeithRichardsdo, that's exactly it - before I went, I was really concerned that, by going to a private counsellor where I was paying for sessions, I would effectively be paying somebody to tell me what I wanted to hear. But equally I'm not sure that being asked to consider DM's feelings about me not meeting her (ever-changing) expectations is helpful? It's a bit confusing. I know that what DM and DF did and have been doing is wrong and I want to work on my boundaries, self-esteem and the way I process and express negative things (when I have to, because everyone does to some extent). I don't really want to debate whether DM's behaviour was justified or not. Does that make me bad? It puts me back in the confusion of 'it wasn't that bad/maybe you're remembering wrong/they were first-time parents so give them a break/they didn't know any better'.

When I had my first batch of counselling at uni I said to the counsellor that, because I was the eldest, my parents had never parented before so they were bound to make mistakes and she said that I sounded very empathetic and emotionally intelligent, but I'm not emotionally intelligent at all! I'm sick of considering how they feel when they are the ones hurting me and never considered how I feel. Being first-time parents doesn't mean they wouldn't know that giving your child the silent treatment for the best part of a week, not telling them about periods, invading their personal space, accusing them of lying about how bad their eyesight is, of deliberately flunking a uni interview, telling them that their boyfriend will forget all about them at uni and meet someone else, etc etc etc, is wrong!

Sorry, that was all very me me me. I'm so fed up.

I don't really want to debate whether DM's behaviour was justified or not. Does that make me bad?

No. It doesn't. You sound clear about what you want and don't want, and that's a good thing and people should respect that - specially counsellors.

Bad/good is a blame/moral superiority thing that is a red herring.

Thanks SeaEagleFeather, that's reassuring. I've booked a first appointment with another counsellor for Thursday, who has experience of survivors of narcissistic parents and emotional abuse.

I went down and saw them today but I'm back home now. It was ok but you notice a lot more stuff when you're tuned in to it, IYSWIM. We were watching the football and Mum was taking the piss out of Gabby Logan for looking at the person she was interviewing and nodding as he spoke - err, that's called listening but listening to people and taking note of what they say is obviously completely alien to her.

Remember that you are interviewing your councillor as you you are going to be paying for them.

Ask what their experience has been with narc parenting. Ie, have they dealt with many patients, have they studied/looked at that area thoroughly etc.

Also ask they opinion on going NC with toxic parents. This will help give you an insight of their experience and any bias.

Oh the boundaries. My mothers big thing was getting naked in front of me. Or changing. Despite me telling her not to and that it made me uncomfortable, she dismissed my discomfort as being silly.

Hello. I've read a bit, but not all.

The only thing you have done wrong/are doing wrong is to chase after them for contact. Let them come to you.

Structure your life the way you want it. You decide if they can be part of that, how much, or if not at all. That's your right. You've paid your dues. Do it.

I did a PGCE in 1992-3 and there is no 'hard work' like it. The pressure is immense. You need people in your life who will fill up your cup of energy, or pass you more 'spoons' - not the draining kind.

Change counsellors until you find one that makes you feel better. That's the overall aim. Yes, they challenge you, but for good purpose. They shouldn't be making you feel worse about the relationship that is causing you problems.

Oh, a quick look back at the thread shows me you're on it already. Fabulous.

I've had and been a difficult mother, and I've had lots of counselling. It gets better. You feel less guilty.

Thank you, Aussiebean, that makes sense. This counsellor has written articles about NPs that I've read but I'll still definitely ask those things. Thank you for the pointers

My mum used to do the naked thing too. There was this weird juxtaposition between periods and sex etc being shameful and never talked about but she'd undress in front of us and be like, 'it's ok, you can look!' I didn't want to look, it made me uncomfortable! She did that but would banish my dad to the bathroom to get changed for bed every night! I'm really sorry you were made to feel uncomfortable like that too.

MaryandMichael don't worry, this one has got pretty long now! everyone has given such good advice and been so kind. I really like the bit you say about structuring your life how you want it - that's honestly something that had never occurred to me until recently! You're very honest about having been a difficult mother too - to you, it sounds like you're doing so well. Thank you for posting x

I hope the session with the new counsellor goes well, I don't know if it's the guy I recommended (I think not as I don't think he's written articles about NPs, if he has I'd love to read them! ha ha), but whoever it is sounds much more suitable for you. As Aussie says, remember you can decide if you think they can help you and if not, then look elsewhere.

xx

Thank you, golondrina - it's not the same person but thank you very much for recommending him I may yet go to him, I'll see how this one goes! Thanks so much for all your support, it really means a great deal xxx

Hi everyone,

How are you all? I hope it's OK to bump such a big old thread. With Christmas approaching, I'm starting to feel really nervous about broaching the subject of spending Christmas Day with DP instead of my parents. Can anyone advise me what I could do/say?

We saw my parents at the weekend, along with my sister and her new boyfriend. It was really painfully obvious that my mum prefers them to me and DP. She was talking and laughing with them all day. When I tried to make a joke with her, she turned on me and made me feel about an inch tall and she wouldn't let it go, commenting about me, 'oh she doesn't like that'. It's really tiny stuff that doesn't even really register with anybody else but it makes me feel so pathetic, I wanted to cry at the table.

I've moved in with DP's parents to save for our own place, but I haven't told my parents because they will go ballistic. I'd rather redirect my mail and try to keep my head down. I'll tell them eventually but the thought of it makes me feel sick.

I want to spend Christmas Eve and Christmas Day with DP, which means being at his parents' house. We're 25 and 27, we're not teenagers and we can make our own decisions (I think?! I'm still trying to come round to that way of thinking!) We would drive down to see my family for Boxing Day, then have some time the two of us between Christmas and New Year and have NYE with friends before I start a new job in January.

My parents really won't like this plan. I mentioned it to my sister and the first thing she said was, 'does that mean you'll be with us for Christmas next year?' I can't express how much I don't want to get locked in to alternating Christmases with no regard for what DP and I actually want. The thought of booking in a day with DM over a year in advance makes me feel nervous and anxious.

Christmas with DM is a performance. It involves being given huge mountains of expensive presents and having to be extremely grateful even though they might not be to your taste, there are too many and you have nowhere to put them. You have to behave like a child and receive a Christmas Eve box even though 'it's not the same as when you were little'. Last Christmas Eve, I had to regress to being a child while my DP had a lovely time at the pub with our friends and I am not missing out on that again.

After spending the day with her this weekend just gone, I felt so low and disappointed with myself. I reverted to putting myself down to make other people laugh, telling all the stories to my sister's new boyfriend that make me look silly. I'm actually qualified in a professional career, I provide for myself, I'm generally a capable person - why do I put myself down to make my DM laugh?!

Sorry for rambling. Thank you so much in advance to anyone who replies!

Hi, I admit I haven’t read the whole thread but I’ve read your initial post and the last one and bits in between.. your mum sounds a lot like mine.

I think to some extent you are overthinking this. I get it because you want to please everyone- but actually you can’t. I think there comes a time with parents like this when you have to accept you’re going to upset them and you’re never going to live up to their expectations- and that actually, that is okay. Disengage.

Tell them what your plans are for Christmas and if they ask about next year say you don’t know. Don’t get drawn into long rambling discussions.

You have a lovely dp, a career, a home, you’re a proper grown up! You don’t need validation from your parents anymore. They can’t tell you want to do and you aren’t responsible for their happiness.

Thank you for replying, Fairylea (and I love your name!)

I do understand that I can't be responsible for their happiness. What upsets me most is my sister being upset with me. She's messaging me now and I'm refusing to be drawn on plans for future Christmases and she says I'm harsh for not wanting to spend it with my family etc.

Nobody seems to understand how little and insignificant my family makes me feel, lilke what I want and my happiness and life and plans don't matter. That's what's brought me back to this thread really.

Hi aibu

Was wondering how you were getting on.

re your comment:-
"I want to spend Christmas Eve and Christmas Day with DP, which means being at his parents' house".

Good for you. Do this!. I will turn up and kick your behind if you do not!!!. BTW I did the same at your age with my then boyfriend now DH which looking back on it now makes me feel very old:)

I would not myself want to spend any time with your mother and sister and also would not see them on Boxing Day either. Spend these two days with people who are radiators, not drains.

You need firmly applied boundaries. Set out your stall now re your family of origin; I would email your mother and then block her because whatever you write, no matter how nicely written, is not going to go down well. I honestly feel these people will try and dominate or otherwise rule your entire life forever if you do not take a stand now. Would you want them at your wedding for instance?. What would your mother be like as a grandmother to any children you go onto have (utter shit is that answer). Your parents have not fundamentally altered since your childhood and your sister remains favoured.

It seems that you are still trying to gain your mother's approval on some level (many adults children of toxic parents do this same behaviour) hence your own put downs of yourself. Please stop doing that to yourself. You are in your mid 20s, you are old enough to tie your shoelaces and make your own decisions here re your life with your boyfriend.

Do you think your sister is actually putting pressure on you because she’s worried underneath it all that the pressure of your parents will be all on her otherwise?

She’s effectively emotionally blackmailing you. I do sympathise, it’s very difficult for you with everyone moaning at you all time!

(Thanks re my name).

Sounds like your sister is being the flying monkey. Her opinion should be roundly ignored by you because she is not and has never been interested in hearing your side of things. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and she is the golden child in your family of origin.

Your sister does not give a toss about your being upset at receiving such crap from her. Would you tolerate this from a friend, no you would not. She is no different.

Have your parents actually invited you to spend Christmas with them? Or do they just expect attendance? If not, make your own plans. I can’t see any good reason for you to spend any time with them, just invite your sister to meet you in a local pub.

Hi Attila!

My sister hasn't always been like this. I think she doesn't see how manipulative and emotionally neglectful and abusive DM has been to me (and to an extent our dad too), because of being the favoured one of the two of us. I think there could be an element of her not wanting all the focus on her, which I do understand.

I don't find my mum's company enjoyable because I'm on tenterhooks the whole time and performing so that I don't upset her or set anything off. Doing my own thing at Christmas is setting something massive off! As is admitting that I'm living with DP's family to save money.

It feels like I will never have mental peace or space from this because your parents and siblings are such a close link.

I wouldn't want my mum to have anything to do with my and DP's future children but I'll have to put up and have only supervised contact (by me or DP). I always thought my sister and I were really close and our children would be really close cousins but it doesn't look as though that will work out if things carry on as they do. My relationship with DM and me starting to make my own life is driving this wedge between us and I feel selfish and wrong for even wanting to do my own thing, it's very confusing.

Knittedfairies, they haven't mentioned it this year - either they're taking it as a given that I'll be there as I have been for the past 25 years, or they know something is up and don't want to broach the subject!