Its happened and now I'm scared.

[1DAD2KIDS]

So anyone who knows me on here knows I was dating a wonderful lady but lack of free time and just a feeling of something missing. Anyway we broke up, she sent me a text basically saying everthing I was thinking. I told her I felt exactly the same. So we shared our mutrual appreciation for each other, said we'd keep in touch and said our goodbyes. As break ups go it was a very pleasant one.

Anyway I decided (based mainly on the problem of not having time for a relationship) to go back to causal relations. So back in the internet I went because a couple of my previous FWB have since entered relationships. I got talking to someone and what happen next was totally unexpected.

We got chatting, it was going well and we rang each other. It just flowed so well. We talked from about 12am to 7.30am. I don't think I ever talked to someone for over 7hrs on the phone before. We had a daytime social meet just to see if would click. It didnt work like that. We hit it off and things were amazing. Honestly had one of the hottest and funniest days of my life. The more we talk the more we both realise we have so much in common. The connection is amazing. I have always felt a bit lonely in a lot of relationships. I felt that it was unrealistic to find a woman totally on my wave length. And that (as I sort of knew) like with my last girlfriend i think has been the problem with others, great women but just that something missing. There is sometime different about her, for the first time (since my ex wife) I am actually feeling, something strong. Something that I thought was dead to me and would never return. I feel like a giddy love sick teenager. We talk every day. I have never been compelled to do that with any of the women I have dated. We can just talk for hours and it feels so natural. She is just on my level and it feels amazing.

So here's the danger and why I'm scared. One I am opening me up my self up to hurt. After all we have started of on a non exclusive FWB basis. From her side of the camp the messages seem to be the the same. She has stated that I am her priority. Like I say it's not exclusive and after years of Marrige she is using the oppertunity to explore Bi-curios feelings. I have no problems with this or open relationships. We are both very liberal in that way and I am not the posesive type. In away this works very well for me because I don't have to the time to give her sole attention she requires and I would not want to hold her back from exploring sexual desires after years of marriage. I don't want to change that or hold each other back from exploring. But I feel I want something more. Dare I say a relationship, all be it an unconventional open and fairly distanced (in terms of oppertunity to physically be with each other). The signals I think are the same from her. For example she asked me if it was ok if she went to meet a woman that shed arranged before we met. I said ok, I genuinely want her to be free, liberated and explore. But I did see that this as another sign that she may already see me not just as a causal sex thing.

So basically I'm a scared because feeling this way about her has come totally out the blue. Honestly I feel sometime really different about her, like she is what I have been looking for. Also scared because it could all come crashing down. So where do I take it from here? Dare I risk formalising the what I think is going on unofficially? I know she is is important because I am scared.

You simply cannot have laid the groundwork in two meetings. You simply can’t.

It’s all idealation at this point. Both of you are mirroring back and being the perfect to the other.

There was a study back in 2005/6/7 (can’t remember) that found that those in bdsm and higher levels of narcissism.

What I don't get is that everyone seems to be getting well away with themselves here.

Err....

As for the rest of it, we're saying it because by its very nature, BDSM is intense with complex dynamics and not always as it seems (in good and bad ways). It attracts a lot of vulnerable people because of its intensity (and, I'm sorry to say, because it is easy to confuse with abuse if you've got some unhealthy tuning). This is one reason why communities are a good thing; they give you a better picture of what it's supposed to look like, and abusers will be excluded.

Your latest post sounds a lot more measured than previous ones, which is great.

What I don't get is that everyone seems to be getting well away with themselves here.

I don’t think it is us!

When I say the ground work I am reffering to setting up a basic starting point. Rather than floating about trying to second guess each other we have simply laid down what we are currently thinking and how we want to play things. I think this is far better than playing games and keeping our cards close to our chest. As I have stated before I do need to get to know her and I look forward to that. When is say we have said to be completely open and honest with each other that does mean I know her inside out, how could I? But what I am saying that is model we want and hopefully being completely honest will be the to success. Of course I don't know 100% if she being 100% honest, neither her with me, how can you at this stage? And that is something to keep in mind. I just don't see the harm in laying are cards on the table and taking it from there?

Because everything you described is not so much ‘laying cards on the table’ as it is ‘putting the cart before the horse’. To have discussed even a fraction of the things you have, to have begun so intensely and so lacking in boundaries and restraint means that this discussion you have had is coming across almost like a contractual agreement. You get to know her first before you get into discussing all of these things. It seems like desperation to be frank. And you repeating codependency with another unstable woman.

I still don't get how people are completely wrapping them self up in knots about how perceive our sexual roles. Telling people how they must be, what they must be like, what you are etc. It's all very deep and I get that some people have a very deep lifestyle connection in those roles and the kink community, which is great for them. But we are not them and although I am thankful of them sharing and of course their insight is of value we are not them, our dynamic may not be their dynamic. They are not us. If anything it is others that are trying to project their stereotypes onto us and what we are and are not and how we must be.

I’m sure I don’t need to tell you that as the D you will be extremely vulnerable to rape/assault accusations if you don’t really actually do the groundwork. It is true that many people are attracted to that culture as a way of self harming too.

Everything Offred said, with bells on.

Because everything you described is not so much ‘laying cards on the table’ as it is ‘putting the cart before the horse’. To have discussed even a fraction of the things you have, to have begun so intensely and so lacking in boundaries and restraint means that this discussion you have had is coming across almost like a contractual agreement. You get to know her first before you get into discussing all of these things. It seems like desperation to be frank. And you repeating codependency with another unstable woman

Offred Yes. and I also agree that BDSM does attract people who use it as a form of abuse and self harm. Its not a popular opinion. Sexuality is a condensed expression of our psychology, our desires, our fears, our experiences, our history, our very earliest life experiences, deprivation of basic needs, lack of attachment in early life.....all of it. I have probably read too much Freud! I wasn't disagreeing with you when you brought up BPD and unstable personalities alongside BDSM. I am just saying there may well be a link, but its theoretical and there is no research as far as I am aware that links early trauma, BPD and BDSM together. Interesting that there is research finding higher incidence of narcissism. Would like to read that.

My bet would be there is a whole lot of people who engage in BDSM who are emotionally unstable. But to put this into context, yesterday i read an interesting article about how women suffer pain during PV sex and how this is normalised. Of course our discomfort and male entitlement are normalised. So it would seem that "submitting" and "submission" to male dominance is so normal as to be unremarkable most of the time, and is very much part of the female sexual psychology, whether we embrace it, deny it, or even try to change it. Its there in almost all of us.

One thing does stand out, earlier DAD you mentioned that she had become cynical thinking casual relationships were all that was on offer. Why is that? and how did you meet her? If you met through your shared views on sexuality with the view to having a casual relationship it makes sense that you are discussing this all as though it were a contract. It seems to be the way within the scene to do this. On the other hand if you met her, as you might meet anyone else why would you not just go into this without the need for laying down the ground rules, because the only contract one needs is the sort of contract one applies to all relationships, such as honesty, treat people well, do not cheat or be duplicitous.....job done.

When you talk about laying ground rules, I think you are conflating sex and BDSM with a real relationship which should be more dynamic and occur more naturally over time. Its all very puzzling.

What's with all the references to BDSM? Have I been reading a different thread?
I really feel like I'm missing something!
It's an alarming read for sure, though. I would feel frightened.

It’s not so much that I think BDSM attracts people who have been harmed any more than other sexual preferences. A person can use a wide variety of different forms of sex in order to harm themselves.

It’s more that I think a lot of women have been harmed and BDSM can cause such great additional harm relative to other sexual activities that there is a massively important extra burden on a D man to really make absolutely sure, over an above consent, that an S woman is not actually involved with it in a damaging way.

To some extent a community can help with this but I have always felt casual BDSM sex is worrying due to really needing to know someone very well inside and out, past and present and having a high level of emotional intelligence to be reasonably confident that you aren’t harming someone.

If you combine not knowing someone well with believing you do know them well and massive intensity... well disaster re BDSM a recipe for criminal charges TBH...

I could see why someone with BPD traits would be attracted to BDSM generally too.

A lot of what has been said has given me pause for though. Maybe to take a step back and look at what is going on. Maybe I have taken for granted that she is emotionally stable? After all its easier to know your own mind that others. Hence obviously the need to get to know each other more. Like I said we don't know each other yet but I see a safe space to be completely honest with each other as a promising and conducive approach to things.

MiniTheMinx We met through shared views on sexuality and for causal arrangements. There was no scope for anything different but as the cookie crumbled it turn out to be more of a connection than expected. It is not an unheard of thing to happen. she had become cynical thinking casual relationships were all that was on offer. Why is that? I think its because of not finding anyone she connects with. Not being able to find suitable people and resigning your self to causal things is also not unheard of and often prevalent in discussions on MN. From where I am standing it is maybe your self and others who are conflating sex and BDSM with a real relationship. The mention of our sexual activities has totally distorted the whole conversation. Remove the sex and BDSM aspect and what are you left with? Your left with two people who get along great, connect really well, are having a really fun time, really enjoy just spending time with each other and really like each other. Just the same as any normal fledgling relationship. The compaable sexual desire is just one aspect, without it we'd still get on like we are doing. The need to reach a clear understanding relationship wise has nothing to do with BDSM. It has everything to with not messing each other about and coming to crossed wires. I really cant see what's wrong or bad about laying things down and coming to agreement on what we both want? Especially when we seek terms that are not exactly the commonly understood norms relationship wise.

because the only contract one needs is the sort of contract one applies to all relationships, such as honesty, treat people well, do not cheat or be duplicitous.....job done I could not agree more. Although we have no contracts, the concept just sounds a bit daft to me. That's why the honesty aspect is such an important one to me. I want someone to be completely honest with me (even if said honesty is not good news). Anyone who has sort of got a grip with my story knows deceit is my biggest hate and the thing that does hurt me. So maybe you can understand why I am so excited by a relationship on the foundation of complete honesty and disclosure? I think (and reading MN kinds of supports this) that complete honesty is a rare commodity in most relationships, even the good ones. Often granted out of good intentions to save a dp from hurt. Ironically I think sometimes as relationships grow closer sometimes that feeling of the freedom to be honest reduces as the risk to emotional (and often financial) investment increases. In short we feel we have more to lose down the line if we reveal our true colours to dp and they don't like it. This fear in a relationship often leads to a breakdown in communication, unhappiness and/or deceit. I want a relationship that is a safe space free from the fear of being our true honest self. Of course it does follow that honesty, treating people well, not cheating or be duplicitous does follow that through honest conversation we'll want have a framework that works to maintain those value. And people are dynamic, as time goes on either/both of us may change. What's important is we maintain those golden rules and keep communicating completely honestly.

But yet I get there are risks attached. This is the same as any potential relationship (the BDSM aspect is a bit of a red herring). For example what if she is not being as honest with me as I her? At this stage all I can do is give her the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise. That's fair isn't it? Now things have bedded in a bit it is time I take it easy a bit. People have raised some legitimate concerns about her that I had not considered. I do need to get to know her more. I am a bit concerned now about things people have raised about her and also the foundation of her sexual preferences. If its right for both of us I isn't going anywhere there is no need to rush. Its fair to say I cant be 100% sure of her true colours yet. But despite I new cautiousness I think this could be something really good for both of us.

Remove the sex and BDSM aspect and what are you left with?

Two people moving at absolutely insane breakneck speed with comments such as 'she is like a female me'...and they've only actually met twice.

The BDSM is important because, as Offred so eloquently explained, it opens both of you up to a great deal of vulnerability and intensity. That's precisely what so many people like about it and there's nothing wrong with that. But when your entire approach is adolescent and lightning speed and you're not actually seeing each other as PEOPLE, more idealised mirrors of yourselves, you're opening yourself up to potentially a great deal of trouble.

PoorYorick as I have identified myself from what has been said there is a need to chill a bit. Although I don't know what lofty stage we have supposed to have got to already? Its not like we are wanting to live together, buy a yacht and sail off into the sun set together or getting married? We both have no desire at this stage to get deeper involved with each other family etc, that would be bazar. I don't see what's wrong with being excited about initial observations about her and how things feels because we are getting on great,

And the whole point of coming from an angle of brutal honesty and disclosure is to see each other warts and all. Not to idealise each other.

It’s built on sand though isn’t it that?

At this point all that is really happening is that you are saying things at each other with no real understanding of each other and no context in which to place any judgement which is creating a false sense of deep and intense intimacy based really on yourselves rather than each other.

This kind of false sense of intimacy leads to all kinds of difficulty because it blinds you to your own needs and feelings.

I’m also slightly concerned re you having a history of casual hook ups for BDSM sex and not actually really having thought too much about the potential for harm and the additional issues re consent...

And I think a lot of what people are saying seems to be going over your head TBH...

You seem to be very focused on the practical issues such as setting out expectations, living together, when to meet DC etc and totally oblivious to the emotional difficulty.

Did you shut down your feelings after ex wife?

Offred were do I say I have a string of causal BDSM hook ups? Also what exactly is defined as causal? Maybe we are at cross wires on that. To me for example causal and hook ups are totally different things. I think there are so many terms and the connotations of each seems to vary from person to person.

And no I did not shut up my feelings with the ex wife.

Nothing wrong with addressing the practice implications and establishing boundries. I don't see what's so racing ahead about liking someone, enjoying a connection and being very open with them? We are allowed to be excited about others. It's not like we're in total pukevile and proclaiming our undieing love to each other or anything like that.

Non exclusive fwb = casual hook up for sex. Bdsm play.

I'll say No, there used to be something I quite liked about you, but after reading this thread it just shows how you can get things wrong. I cant quite put my finger on it. But again something just doesn't seem right with this set up.

It doesn't look like anything anyone says will get taken on board really,so unfortunately I'll await the next thread

*now not no

1DAD2KIDS lots of people, two in particular have given you a great deal of sensible, calm, supportive advice explaining why your paradigm surrounding BDSM relationships (because I do believe D/s is a way of relating and engaging with another) is skewed.

I can't be as level headed because like others, I've seen oodles of these kind of dynamics in the scene and they NEVER end well. You speak of boundaries, rules, transprent honesty, yada yada yada like you have scripted the terms of engagement already and in a way, I guess you have.

You have set both of you up for massive disappointment in one broad brush stroke. One or both of you will stumble, and neither of you will have adequate knowledge of the other to pick the one who fell off the ground because despite the intensity - you dont KNOW each other. It's intoxicating, truly I know it can be...finding someone who seems so inexplicably parallel to you in terms of desires and ideals, so "on your wavelength" but step back a minute. SHE intiates the contact, she WAS looking for casual but suddenly is ok with a relationship with someone who hasnt time to see her and ocassionally hasnt even time to talk with her.

Think about the submissive mindset, their desire and drive to please - to subjugate their own will in favour of another and then think about how some subs can be the most effective chameleons possible in order to acheive that holy grail of a "good girl". (NB: to anyone offended by that - I said some, not all and yes I know its very FSoG but TNG seem determined to proliferate this kind of nonsense - that and bloody glitter)

I personally dont subscribe to the nomaclatures and usual MO of scene relationships (and the one you describe is so scene/so trite) it doesnt mean we dont understand how appealing that ideology can be. Kid in a sweetshop being given free reign... In reality, you get somewhere close to that through perseverance, time and face to face experience of each other; often more through mutual missteps, tears and forgiveness than through hammering out firm rules of engagement with someone in the first week of meeting. Please tell me you arent practicing CnC...

At the risk of sounding very naive, what's CnC?

Consensual non consent.

Casual - not making an emotional investment.

I find that dangerous re BDSM.

And what you are now doing IMO is the same thing but in a different way. There’s a really intense connection/chemistry on the surface but massively lacking emotional care.

(For yourself as well as her BTW)