"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Elf

Would not send it back or acknowledge it in any way, shape or form.
Would you spend this equally on both DC in any event?.

What your parents want from you is a response; that way they know they have you then. The response is the reward to such disordered people so would maintain radio silence. Unwanted contact like this in the form of gift giving is often used by toxic parents to try and regain control.

Sorry, wasn't clear. The voucher is for dc1s birthday. Neither DC got anything for Christmas, not even a phone call. We were all completely blanked for 7 weeks by them. Now they've decided to make a grand gesture probably because someone has pointed out how bad it looks and everyone is meant to forget what has happened. But the DC haven't forgotten they didn't even get a call.

If they do manage to make contact, they still might not bother of course fingers crossed, poor dc2 is going to see dc1 being favoured. Dc1 isn't of course, she's just the tool being used in my parents game. Had it been dc2s birthday then they'd have used him.

Sadly I've predicted every move they've made so far, so the bomb will get dropped on the DC somehow. I think we may encourage dc1 to share it, so dc2 at least knows his sibling cares.

Sorry just came here to ramble.

The positivity of my intake counselling has worn off. Now the feelings I had buried and ignored have resurfaced. Is this normal? In my previous counselling I've never been honest and only touched the surface. After about 8 sessions I say I'm fine and then leave. This time though I want to be honest and get to the root problem. My family.

It hurts because I have created this perfect family in my head. And everything is ok unless I were to rock the boat and then they would turn against me. Am I making sense? Do others feel the same way too?

anyone?

dusk I think that's normal in these circumstances. Not quite the same as me - my larger family has always been fractured but I always thought that our little part of the family were normal and believed that my rocking the boat was due to inherent selfishness or awfulness. It's taken until this year to realise my selfishness isnt real, sure we can all be selfish but when I'm selfish and awful it's because I wont or aren't able to do what they demand. You need to grieve for it I think, even if it wasn't real it still felt real to you.

Unsurprisingly my parents did phone for dc1s birthday. Dh decided to take the call and whilst he didn't speak to them other than to say hello, he put them into dc1. We could hear it all. They weren't interested in anything she said, just asked about the present they sent and ask why we weren't giving her a party saying it wasn't nice (she chose a bigger gift instead which they know and if they'd have listened they'd have realised she was more than happy). They weren't happy she'd chosen to share part of it with dc2 (which she did with no issue as she instantly said dc2 would be sad that he got nothing over christmas), and didn't want to talk to dc2 at all. Dh shoved him on the phone so they had no choice in the end. DC haven't realised their games, and dh has lost any illusions over them. They'll be easier to ignore from now on. Even my ILs are shocked by them which helps me realise I'm not crazy.

Just dropping by. I have a husband who won't take responsibility for his relationship (dysfunctional to say the least) with his parents. His mother in particular insists on being very involved but is nasty when she doesn't get the treatment she feels she deserves. Years of trying to placate and please whilst treading on eggshells and getting verbally battered when we get it wrong has resurfaced now we've had our second baby.
I have posted many a time on relationships regarding this. I would like to never see either of them again but I'm struggling as when i don't respond huge fall outs happen and whilst I'm towing the line mother in law does s good job of being nice making my husband doubt it all.
Just had another family event ruined by horrible behaviour, manipulative and controlling with lots of nasty digs thrown in.
In any other situation I wouldn't see someone who treated me like this, it's harder that they aren't my parents and I feel he needs to support me but is too afraid.

Fed up and exhausted to say the least !

Sending everyone supportive hugs and
I’ve been NC with my abusive, controlling, manipulative and cruel mother for 10 months now. The things she said and did could fill a whole thread on their own.

I have a supportive DH and have had a lot of therapy but it was the birth of my own DC1 and mother’s more recent bizarre behaviour that spurred me into action. This decision has been complicated by the fact that I am on ok terms with DF who was also abusive but has acknowledged his past behaviour and makes an effort with me now (still married to her) and one of my brothers (I have two but the other one has a very weird co-dependent relationship with her so has naturally taken “her side”) who both still live at home. Going NC hasn’t been the clean break I was hoping it to be.

I have such overwhelming pangs of anger and envy when I see other women with their mums, daughters, granddaughters having a nice time, doing normal things like clothes shopping etc. Why don’t I deserve a loving mother figure to do those normal things with, without it being blackmail/trickery? I then feel guilt that by going NC I am potentially depriving DD of the possibility of having the chance to do those kinds of things with her grandma, and am not giving mother a chance to redeem herself. There also appears to be a school of thought that a mother cutting off her daughter must be because the daughter is “awful” and “beyond help” yet a daughter going NC is self-absorbed, dramatic and too keen to throw out the ‘narc mother’ card for attention and so I end up feeling even more shit (that’ll teach me to be Googling for insight at night when I can’t sleep)
I am desperate to break the cycle of dysfunctional, toxic family relationships (now in its third generation), I can’t bear the thought of my DD going through half of what I dealt with. Does the fear and guilt ever go away?

Pissed off,

re your comments in quote marks:-
"I then feel guilt that by going NC I am potentially depriving DD of the possibility of having the chance to do those kinds of things with her grandma, and am not giving mother a chance to redeem herself".

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. As for redeeming herself it won't happen. She will simply use your DD as narcissistic supply if exposed to her. She (and for that matter your dad) was not a good parent to you when growing up so what makes you think she would at all be a decent grandmother to your DD, your most precious resource. You think your mother feels any guilt as to how she has treated you, not a bit of it. No do not go down that rabbit hole. You are protecting your DD from Bad Things by keeping her away from them, your DD needs emotionally healthy role models and narcissists in particular make out for being deplorably bad grandparents. If your H's parents are nice then encourage that relationship instead. You also need to stay away from your parents.

"There also appears to be a school of thought that a mother cutting off her daughter must be because the daughter is “awful” and “beyond help” yet a daughter going NC is self-absorbed, dramatic and too keen to throw out the ‘narc mother’ card for attention and so I end up feeling even more shit (that’ll teach me to be Googling for insight at night when I can’t sleep)

That sort of self serving denial is often written by the toxic people themselves and their acolytes. I would not read Gransnet; that is the sort of crap that appears on there on a semi regular basis. Instead I would read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and this link:-

www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/

I would lower still further all contact with your dad. He still continues to fail you really because he failed to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviours. Theirs is a dysfunctional codependent relationship and your dad gets what he wants out of that.

You can break the cycle and I would suggest you find a therapist to work on your FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). This is a useful website as well:-

outofthefog.website/

Really appreciate the advice and support Attila thank you. I have reduced contact with my dad and kept it to being just for the sake of him and my brother seeing DD more than anything, and it’s on my terms not theirs.

Thank you also for the links you provided, no doubt much more productive reading than the likes of Gransnet at silly o’clock.

*once every couple of months or so

Wondered if I could join. Been going to counselling for a year and only just touched on my “emotionally absent mother”
She suggested I look up about why I have no childhood memories, is this usual?
Feel like there is so much info out there it’s all a bit overwhelming.
My mother is, on the surface a good mother, middle class, gave us what we needed etc.
So I’m feeling guilty and slightly self indulgent about it all. Like it’s all a bit me me me.
Which is apparently what I was like as a child. So maybe I am!

Hi huntinginthedark 👋 I’m no expert, what happens when you look at childhood photos, does it trigger your memory? Could it be a protective mechanism? I have heard of people attending regression hypnosis, I’m sure someone who is far more knowledgable will be along to give some better advice and support.
Material possessions, nice house etc are no substitute for a mother’s warmth and unconditional love so please don’t feel guilty about taking the brave step of going to counselling x

Thanks pissed
I looked at a whole load of photos recently! It just made me feel very sad for the little girl in them. Couldn’t really put my finger on why. But I have so little memory. I’ve jollied along for years but heading towards 40 and the breakdown of a long relationship has really made me question everything. But then I think maybe I am mad!

Therapist is good, but perhaps a little frustrated with me. I just feel a bit blank about everything, slightly stuck too. Haven’t achieved anything I wanted and they’re not grand things I want... anyway thanks for replying

Huntinginthedark, I've been where you are. I had little memory of my childhood, then when my DSis and I had young children the memories came back. (I had flashbacks for years but couldn't place them.) I've shared earlier on the thread what happened to us, so I won't go into the details here, but it was bad, childhood SA at the hands of my father and others, and an emotionally distant mother who worked so hard that she had no way of realising what was going on in our home.

So I get where you're at. Obviously I'm not saying that there is anything suppressed. But it sounds like there might be something that's buried.

You can message me if you think it might help.

Thanks Lizzie

Anyone here attended Coda?

Is it okay to join this thread? I was going to start one but I kind of want to bury the things I'm potentially going to be posting about so it feels safer to post in an existing thread.

I'm currently NC with DF, since October, and finding it incredibly hard. On the one hand I hate him, I hate him like I've never hated anyone in my life. On the other hand, I miss him so much and the thought of him being all alone makes me feel so sad. I don't know how to reconcile the two.

Some background, it's complicated so I'll try simplify it a bit. I'm sorry if it's long.

I thought I had a happy childhood. DF has always had a bad temper and was very strict. He's like Jekyl and Hyde but you never quite know which one you're dealing with or when he'll switch from one to the other and back again. When he's in a good mood and on your side he's 100% on your side, he's your best friend and he's fun and you feel like a winner just by being around him. When he's not on your side your life isn't worth living, his shit list is not a good place to be. I can recount a few times where he hit us but not that many, his forte was mind games. I don't think we were bad kids, certainly no worse than any others, but when we were on his shit list he'd tell us we were worthless, useless, deceitful, ungrateful, spiteful, greedy, nasty little shits, liars, and so on. He was ringing SS to take us away, go pack a bag. I've changed my mind, go unpack it. We'd get sent to bed as a punishment. 9am, been "naughty" (and his definition of naughty was incredibly loose), bed for the rest of the day. No toys, no reading, no talking, lie in bed and face the wall and he'd call us all the names again. It was always when DM wasn't there and if we cried for her he'd tell us that it was DM who put him up to it, that she didn't want us, that we'd killed what little love she did have for us due to our behaviour. If he tried any of it when she was there she would immediately intervene and then they'd argue, I'm sure she started the arguments deliberately to distract him from us as she'd send us outside to play during them, away from him. We did have good times too, it wasn't constantly like that and we had nice things. He could be funny and playful and loving. He took us on adventures. He got into mischief with us. He fought our corner against the world when we needed it. He was noce as well as horrible. Like having two dad's, the good one and the bad one.

Anyway. Years and years go by. I could retell specific incidents but I won't. I grew up, I moved out (at midnight and in only the clothes I was wearing but that's another story), and we got along better once I was out of the house and not so much under his thumb. He'd still piss me off sometimes but DH encouraged me to own the pissed off felling, to tell DF no, I'm an adult and I'll do it my way. He was a good grandad to my DC although I would have to manage visits to a certain extent so that they were never exposed to his temper.

He could be very loving with DM, romantic, kind, all of that but also very controlling and jealous. He'd call her stupid and if she didn't want to do the things he wanted to do he'd say she was "in a mood". He'd call my aunts (her sisters) slags and she wasn't allowed to go to the pub with them unless he went too. He accused her of affairs (she never had any, he had two that I know of. One of his affairs, DM would be at work and he'd leave us kids sitting in the car outside the OW's house while he was inside "measuring up for a decorating quote". He measured up that house every weekend for months ). His behaviour has gotten worse over the last few years and eventually I said to DM that if she ever wanted to leave, I would help her. It was when she said to me "he's nice some of the time" and I thought no, he should be nice all of the fucking time. I realise now that their relationship was emotionally abusive. That he was emotionally abusive.

She left him in September and came to stay with me. He began bombarding everyone with calls/texts/visits. He sent the entire family a letter blaming it on my then-16yo DB who has ASD. He called him manipulative and claimed DB had orchestrated the break up as he's jealous of DF and wants DM to himself. He told everyone DM is mentally ill, menopausal, in debt, on the verge of bankruptcy, having an affair, and so and so on. Bat shit stuff. He tried to kill himself. I don't know what he told the mental health team but he claimed they said that DM is mentally ill and that he should confront her about her issues asap. He said he was having her followed and her phone hacked. On and on it went. Then in October he tried to get her to go to the house to help pack up ready for selling it. She took me with her. He trapped her in the house and tried to stab her, we managed to escape and he tried to kill himself before the police arrived. Bail meant he couldn't contact us but he immediately began looking for loopholes in it so DM had to also get a non-molestation order. He was arrested last month for breeching it and is waiting for a hearing to be tried for this. He was found guilty of the assualt he committed in October and sentenced but it means his bail conditions are no longer in effect.

He can't contact DM (non-molestation and now also a restraining order) but he is now allowed to contact me. He tried phoning me and I told him i can't have anything to do with him until he takes responsibility for his actions (he claims DM and I lied about it, he's in massive denial about his behaviour and about what happened) and not to contact me again. I then received a letter over the weekend that basically says none of it is his fault (as always, it's never his fault), that he's mentally ill but it's our fault for not realising he was ill and for not getting him some help, that families can overcome these things if they're loyal/loving/understanding but these are all qualities we lack, that he doesn't need us anyway, that we think he's weak but he's not, we're the weak ones and so on.

I wish he'd died when he tried to kill himself the first time. I know that makes me a bad person but I'd rather that then having to deal with this twisted, horrible person he's become. He can't ever let things go. I know there'll be more letters coming. He told people he wants to see my DC and is taking me to court for access (he's got no chance but it's one more stick to beat me with). He escalates and when he escalates he does stupid stuff because he's his own worse enemy. I had to fit a lock to the letterbox so that I can sleep because I got myself wound up that he'll pour petrol through it one night as revenge and then go home and kill himself so he can't get done for it. His version of events is that we've all turned against him, that we're lying, if he was so bad why did we have contact with him for all these years, allow our children near him, and so.

And I don't know why, except that he could be nice. Bad tempered but nice. I don't even know why I'm posting and it's probably too long to read even. It's just all such a mess and I need to start picking through it and trying to make sense of it because it's got me twitching. I can't sleep for bad dreams. I'm constantly on alert when we go out in case we bump into him (he's very local to us). I'm on high alert when I visit DM, I helped her find a house but I'm paranoid in case I inadvertently lead him there (she's not so local now but I wouldn't put it past him to follow me if he thought I was headed there). He's been quiet the last two days so I'm tense because I'm waiting. It's like being a child again and waiting for the outburst that I know is coming.

Then on top of it I feel sad for him. No wife, no children, no grandchildren. Going from a large family to just himself, coming home to a dark empty house every night. I was worried about him being found guilty in case he lost his job over it FFS. Christmas alone. Eating alone. Sleeping alone. Waking up alone. Not talking to anyone between finishing work one day and starting work again the next day. I worry he'll try suicide again and he'll die alone with no one to realise he's gone until the neighbours notice a smell and milk piling up on the doorstep. I miss my dad, even though he's been a horrible selfish bastard and I fucking hate him, I miss him.

If you've read all of this then well done and if it's not appropriate for the thread I'll go start my own and sorry for taking up your time.

Thank you for letting me unload.

Hi Clickclack, you're definitely welcome here. If you want to post somewhere a bit quieter there's Stately Survivors where we have a members-only forum - it's a bit quiet but you'll get one or two replies at least. There's also another option on here if you want to PM me.

Don't be sorry for taking up our time - you deserve some help with all this. You deserve a lot of help. You've been abused by your father in childhood, your mother's been abused by him for years, and now that you both have had the courage to get away from him he's still trying to ruin your lives. What a burden you have had to carry. And hats off to you for being able to help your mum get away.

Can I just start here because this is the most important bit:
I told him i can't have anything to do with him until he takes responsibility for his actions

Don't have anything to do with him, full stop! He tried to stab your mum. You're afraid he's going to set fire to your house. You've been conditioned to feel guilty about listening to your own fear but please believe me when I say that anyone outside this situation would tell you never to risk letting him near you again. And it doesn't matter if he's his own worst enemy, that he feels bad about it afterwards or it's not in his interests or whatever: how it affects you and your mother is more important, because you are not the one who emotionally abused your whole family and then tried to stab your wife when she finally got up the courage to leave.

I note also that you're trying to get him to take responsibility for his actions - you're seeking validation. Confirmation that it all actually happened. You are probably never going to get this from him. You'd be far better off going to counselling and telling your history to a therapist who can give it all the appropriate label of abuse. Your father's not in the market for realising what he's done wrong - like a toddler (the emotional age of most abusers) he's acting out in the hope that somehow magically you'll all come back and keep fucking pandering to him, and failing that he's going to try and make as much trouble for you as possible.

Regarding the nice dad/nasty dad stuff, the cycle of abuse diagram might look familiar. You are absolutely spot on what you said to your mum, that being nice some of the time doesn’t excuse his behaviour at other times.

You still think about him - you're still in the FOG - fear, obligation and guilt - and that is natural. He is your dad - you have a connection to him (which he abused - kids come ready-made to love their parents, it’s a privilege that they should not abuse), and the thing about childhood abuse is that you don’t know it’s abuse when you’re going through it. You question yourself, you try, as a little monkey person, to find a way that the world is safe and your parents are safe and how you do that is to take on yourself the responsibility for what is happening to you. Far less scary for a small child to believe that they’re bad and deserve punishment than to believe that their parent is scary and a danger to them. And it’s natural as an adult also, it’s easy for us to forgive and forget and go back and expect them to be normal, expect them to be loving and to want to have a loving relationship. What is hard is to hang on to the knowledge that what happened to you was wrong, that it was abuse, that you couldn’t control his behaviour by being good, and that the fear you feel is justified. That’s why you let him have contact with your kids as well, because you’ve never had your feelings of fear validated, you’ve been taught to believe that it was all partly your fault. You shouldn’t feel guilty about that, you shouldn’t feel that the fact that you let him have contact with your kids makes you a hypocrite or weakens your claims of abuse because it really doesn’t. Abused people let the abuser back in. It’s what we do.

And I don’t think you’re a bad person for wishing he’d died. I think that’s an entirely natural response. Somebody wrote about this in the Guardian a couple of months ago and I am entirely of one mind with that person. If you’re interested in getting in touch with your anger you might like Richard Grannon’s stuff on Youtube. You might also be interested in Codependency for Dummies - it might help you with bringing down the feelings of guilt and obligation towards your father.

Hi, @ClickClackCars you sound very like me. My father was abusive but he could also be lovely, it's so confusing, isn't it? I remember being desperate for him to die when he was ill in hospital the last time. It made me feel so guilty afterwards, and I grieved so much, it was bizarre. It doesn't necessarily help when the abuser dies, because he's there in your head. (It means he didn't face justice either but that's another story.)

He really emotionally abused my DM looking back. He accused her of being unfaithful, apparently a woman's unfaithfulness was worse than a man's unfaithfulness, although what he was doing was SA of DSis and me. He wouldn't let her go on a work weekend away because apparently he knew what went on during such weekends. So she went along with it.

He dragged us all off to Saudi Arabia for a year (they were missionaries back then), despite the fact that she really didn't want to go, and was a young mum with 3 children under 5.

I came across some of his letters to her while she was away working on a project he started, a work she really loves and is still doing now. They sound very loving on the face of it, but they're actually very controlling, making her feel very guilty making out that he couldn't cope without her. (I was with her at that time.)

Then when he travelled to join us for a week, he actually said to me that he believed she was being unfaithful to him. I was absolutely shocked, as one thing you could never say about my DM was that she isn't totally loyal. (She's controlling in her own way but I don't think she realises that.)

I think he was a narcissist and we're all damaged to varying degrees.

I know the FOG you're describing, it's so hard to escape from. But you and your DM are doing absolutely the right thing.

Well I give up posting in here! I just got ignored!

Get*

Sorry you feel that way Dusk.
What’s Coda? Is Italian for tail!

@duskmum I'm sorry if you feel we're ignoring you. It can feel like that, but no one is intentionally ignoring you. FWIW, I know exactly what you mean about creating the perfect family in your head. I've done that, to the extent of repressing the memories of what my childhood was actually like. Counselling just didn't work and I used to just walk away.

You're welcome to PM me if you feel that would help.

HI dusk
I am also someone who was interested in coda. Find it a bit scary. But was it you or someone else who had a thread about it ?
Not sure many people have much experience of it
But it might be a good idea. Codependency is a deep routed problem and I’m not sure how to get over being that way.

Just wanted to say that finally deciding to go NC with my narcissistic gaslighting fucking bastard of a mother is the best thing I've ever done. Yes, as you can probably tell, I'm still very angry, but I've just put myself on a waiting list for counselling and I'm really looking forward to getting everything off my chest. I swing between feeling absolutely furious and absolutely devastated but it's ok because I'm dealing with it and I also feel FREE. Finally, wonderfully free. I no longer give a shit about those people who are horrified by the idea of me turning my back on my mother. And that includes my aunt, uncle and cousins who are just a bunch of flying monkeys who can all fuck off. None of them had to live through what I went through. They saw her when she was at her best, at her most charming and the fucking morons fell for it. If they don't believe me then I don't need them and they don't deserve me in their lives. Apologies to anyone who is offended by my swearing. But it feels so good to get it out. My advice to those of you still trying to find a way to keep your narcissistic, abusive mothers in your life and not let them get to you? Forget it. Move on and don't look back. She will never change.