"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Bleurgh! Read. How do you delete messenger messages? Short of blocking, it would appear we are at an impasse as this time I am not going to allow my sister to portray herself as the victim to me. Of course, in reality this just means I will ignore her. Thankfully dd1 will be moving groups soon. Was going to be easier, likely September. But I might see if we can go back to the sooner date.

Fuckit it's tough seeking interest from someone who just doesn't seem bothered. Is it your mum or abuser relative who is the alcoholic? Not that it matters much.

I wonder if your mum feels/felt guilty and is continuing to bury her head in the sand by ignoring you. If she doesn't see you she doesn't have to acknowledge it.

If she thinks it's hard for her, it's even harder for you as you lived it.

I've learnt from here that when you still staying in the box your family put you in, they don't know how to deal with it.

I've reduced contact with my parents right down to virtually Zero. That's not to say I dont want a relationship with them, but I won't be put back in the box they expect me to fill. They cannot understand nor deal with it therefore I keep myself safe by not putting myself in the firing line.

Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences around confronting their parent? I have been thinking so much recently and it always come around to needing to explain why my childhood experiences were not good enough. My experience really centres around neglect and needing to be the good girl because parents couldn't manage the conflict. I think I need to value myself enough to create the conflict, I don't expect change or awareness but I do think I would feel I had put myself first.

I get dismissed by my father and the right noises are made by my mother, but nothing changes.

I've learnt that dealing with it is me managing how that experience has made me feel and then working to resolve the affect that had on my esteem.

I have confronted my mother many times over the years. She has admitted to a lot of it when no one else was around but when I tried to tell my family what she did she denied everything. My mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and people who have that will never change. They don't really believe that they are ever wrong so they don't see any need to change. I was just banging my head against a brick wall with her. There's a quote that says "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". So I stopped trying to confront her. I've gone no contact now. It's hard but I know it's right. Things are much more peaceful without her around.

I am so bloody stupid! My dad called yesterday, asking to take dd2 out for her birthday. First time ever that he has made any effort with kids, so thought ok. He appeared today and there I am back to being a child again, trying to get the house tidy so that I don't get any comments. I've badly hurt myself, so am in pain and can't move very well.

His partner corners me saying I really must call dad, I told her that I have done so, and tbh not any of her business. I then said I'm xx old and she really doesn't understand, what's happened. oh but he's so upset!!!

He brings dd2 back she's of an age where she can be bought, she has emotional/anger issues and thinks he's fab as he's spent money on her.

I then do the really stupid part, I had really great news today, got an offer for uni, something that I never thought I would be able to do. He's always called me stupid, the brains weren't around when I was born etc etc. spent my life trying to prove to him I can do it, for him to be proud of me.

So what do I do? Yep tell him about the uni place. what subject will you be learning, followed by a snear. Well, what subject will you be teaching? I explain that secondary teachers have a specialist subject, primary tgey teach all subjects. More snearing and snorting, well how can you possibly teach every subject? You can see it, sucking me in and spitting me out.

Eventually, I say, well I'm happy and pleased with myself. At no point did he say well done, proud of you. Whatever I fucking do will never be good enough. If my 13 can say well done mum, I'm so pleased for you, why the hell can't my arsehole of a dad?

oh and as he was leaving, he then basically referred to his partner as a dog. He told her all she needs is a basket and she's fine. When I exclaimed, oh she knows I'm joking. yea like all the times you call her fluffy brain etc etc

Ahh Lou, sorry it was shit but a least you spotted it and you know it's him not you.

The inevitable has happened. Got a message this morning from my father stating they're sending a card and money for dc1s birthday. No mention of Christmas, no asking after anyone. Just a look at what great grandparents we are.

Dh and I spoke and responded for them not to bother, that a call over Christmas would have meant more to both dc and that they're both hurting and confused over it. Dh is very concerned accepting will send a message to dc2 that hes the problem, which of course dc2 isn't.

I don't care about sparing their feelings any more. This was meant to be the cue to say the punishment is over, they've forgiven me and now I must fall into line and forget it. They can do one. They don't get to play games or favourites with my DC and hurt them.

I'm a little angry as you can probably tell.

Block them as of now. Stop all their means of contacting you.
Do not accept any presents or cards from these people. Radio silence from you must now be maintained, any response from you gives them an "in" to bother you even more. They were not going to let you go that easily; many toxic people use "gifts" as a means of trying to exert further control over those who are trying to wriggle out of their grasp.

If presents and cards are given, get rid of these asap. Do not give such things any more power and do not acknowledge these in any way. They want a response, stop giving that to them because that just plays into their hands.

You were and still are right Attila. I stupidly felt because they chose the silence that I owed my DC a chance to see if they'd acknowledge what they did. They didn't. It's all my fault because I didn't do the running and I've been ignoring them apparently . I've blocked them now. They won't change. But this game will end and won't affect my DC, or at least they won't be drawn into it.

DH thankfully being the voice of reason just by being completely flabbergasted by my parents. When this all happened and after Christmas I told dh they would try to blame this all on me. I think he's shocked that I was right. In his rational world he can't figure out how anyone could think that blaming me for not chasing them when my mother had said she didn't want to talk to me and my father hasn't made any contact either. He also pointed out that the DC needed them to make contact over Christmas because it was what they wanted to do, not because they'd been forced to by one of us. At least he's seeing them for what they are.

He also thinks all you lot are wonderful btw, for all the advice you've given me

Just checking in. Realising that my parents do not care about me or my dc. Makes me really sad, and determined to do better for my kids.
to all of you.

I'm so happy to have found this thread. That sounds sick doesn't it, 'happy', because there are so many of us unfortunate enough to have such horrible parents - but it's like a wave of relief realizing you aren't alone.

I'd love some advice...

I'm finding myself stuck in the same situation time and time again... my mother is the definition of toxic and I can't have her in my life anymore (i even moved 200+ miles away to start a new life away from her). The problem though is she has the rest of my family, who i adore, wrapped around her little finger. So by cutting her out i risk loosing them too. Every time she kicks off about something she lies to my Grandparents and Aunt and the following happens, it is textbook behavior by now :

1. I get a call from my Grandma in tears, telling me i'm so awful and why can't i just be nice to my mother because i'm upsetting everyone. I can't get a word in.
2. My Aunt phones, seemingly friendly but soon begins with 'your grandparents are getting old, you're upsetting the family, why can't you just be nice to your mum'.
3. All quietens down for a while, they'll ignore me for months then slowly come around and speak to me.

This time though, i'm so determined to block her from my life for good, but i wonder if my family will really never speak to me again. Has anyone else had experience with this? I've had such an overwhelming realization recently that the family members i have idolized my whole life (i'm 27) have actually never listened to me and i'm so exhausted trying. I feel stuck; i either put up with my mother to keep my grandparents/aunt in my life or set myself free from the pain of my mother but in turn lose them too. On their last visit my Grandpa told me his dying wish (hes only 70) was for me and my mum to be friends - c'mon !!! They are so manipulated by her, i can't begin to explain.

3 years on and off in therapy has only really taken the edge off, my childhood and her continued behavior towards me still impacts my work and home life severely. I know the only wait to be free is to cut her out.

Happy New Year everyone.

Hope you are all coping.

I have been very up and down over the past few weeks; sometimes it really feels like I take one step forward and two steps back.

Hi sonlea

Do read up on flying monkeys.

Your relations are the "flying monkeys"; narcissists like your mother like and use such people because they are easily manipulated and fooled into doing their dirty works for them. These people are the narcissist's enablers.

They are also acting in their own and sole interests, not yours at all. Their opinions therefore should be roundly ignored by you as they are not interested in hearing your side of things. If they are not prepared to properly listen to you then you should not have them in your life at all.

Today I had my intake counselling appointment and God it was good to get loads of things off my chest! We established my pattern of relationships and low self esteem comes from my childhood and upbringing. She was really good and it's a shame I probably won't be put with her as my counsellor. Today I feel more positive about trying to move on from feelings from my past. I want to have healthy relationships and I want my DS to not follow the same pattern as I have. I'm determined! Today is a good day!

Duskmum that sounds awesome!

sunflower stay strong... it's a hard time of year with Christmas, and also it's bloody miserable up there with the 20 minutes of sunlight a day...

Can I share a quick story with you guys? We went to soft play last weekend and DD2 was in this vertical tunnel thing that she couldn't quickly get out of, and an older kid (like about 12 or 13, DD's 5) comes along and starts raining plastic balls down on her head. So I couldn't get in but when he came down I told him he was a disgrace and asked where his mother was. His mother was not the least bit embarrassed or apologetic and we had a massive shouting match about it in the middle of the soft play. And then afterwards, I went back over to our table, and I felt just a bit angry! No shaking, no emotional flashback, no abandonment melange... I was just like, god, no wonder that kid's such an arse if his mother defends him the whole time, and I am not coming back to this soft play. And that was it! I never, ever thought I would be able to cure my phobia of conflict. But I think it is well and truly gone I don't know if DH's joy at this is quite as pure as mine though, he did look a bit embarrassed

toomuch that's great news. Good on you for sticking up for DD that kid sounds awful! I also worry about conflict but hoping with therapy I can get a voice. Normally conflict ends in me backing down and crying. It's good to know you can overcome it though!

shocking how the mum reacted too

Oh wow thank you so much @AttilaTheMeerkat - I had a therapy session last night but it felt totally underwhelming compared to the hour afterwards I spent reading up on 'flying monkeys'. I forwarded some of the articles to my younger brother who is battling with the same situation and it blew his mind.

It's amazing isn't it how people who seem so loving, intelligent and all round 'together' will blindly join the narcissists fan club. Thank you so much again for enlightening me and taking the time to reply x

Was previously hashi
My parents have only gone and sent dc1 a gift voucher. Its not for a small amount either. Dh and I are both in agreement that we would send it back if it came but it's too close to the birthday now. So we now need to wait and see if they are going to call, if we leave it till voicemail we know they'll mention the present. Or if we pull the landline, they may try mil and again will mention the present.

I'm so fucking angry. Its so stupid to be angry over a gift when I was angry over them ignoring the DC over Christmas I know but poor dc2 is going to be gutted over this. Dc2 is too small to understand. They have bank accounts for the DC and could have quietly put money on there. By no, they need to make a gesture entirely for their own benefit and sod the damage they do to my DC.

Selfish twats the both of them.