"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I would remain no contact with your parents Little, you do not have to do anything else. They and your brother are not at all worthy of you. They see you as the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. They were also not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have fundamentally not changed.

Your mother ordering you also to clean your lazy arse brother's house is also beyond the pale.

It’s amazing little that they’re trying to blame you for your mother's depression when you know that she’s always ‘suffered’ from it. How can a child be responsible for someone’s depression? It makes no sense, which is further evidence for you that you are not responsible for her mh.

I agree with starsearching it can release a lot of emotions once you realise how you have been treated and that it is NOT your fault. I felt huge rage for months.

jasmine are you the scapegoat in your family and your brother the golden child? Or is it just that your brother has followed a similar path to your mother and therefore validated her choices.

I know it’s hard to hear but the only real revenge is to live well and enjoy your own life and family. Being chewed up with resentment is playing into her hands and allowing her to manipulate you further. However, I found that I needed to be angry first and rage at her - not face to face but in therapy, on line, with friends, and in my own head - before I could begin to let it go. I also needed to grieve for the mother I would never have. She was never going to be interested in me, care for me, empathise, be there for me. All the things that people with loving parents take for granted. I just needed to mourn that loss.

Try and get any help you can, keep posting here, get therapy, write it down, ring the Samaritans, read about narcissistic and inadequate parents. Wishing you lots of luck

little this sounds familiar to me too. Trying to manipulate you into doing things for them using disapproval and guilting you. But when you realise that nothing you do will ever be enough, it’s quite liberating. It’s v painful when you have to come to terms with the fact that they will never love you the way you deserve to be loved. But it also lets you off the hook. You no longer have to literally clean other people’s shit to try to earn their approval (love). And you will wonder how you ever used to do it. It’s like an evil spell has been broken. The thing is: it’s not you that’s wrong, inadequate, unkind, bullying. It’s them. They will never acknowledge this, though.

Thank you Flappyears. I think you're right about my mother's choices being validated. I'm going to look into more counselling - I have had some which did help but I have more I need to work through. Thanks again for replying.

No worries Jasmine. It’s a difficult path but actually I’m starting to feel proud of myself for being the parent my parents weren’t and for giving myself the kindnesses my parents didn’t give me. The hardest thing for me is to try and get rid of the internal voice that keeps saying, ‘you can’t do it’, ‘you’re rubbish’, ‘x is prettier, funnier, cooler than you’.

But I have replaced all the narcissistic people in my life with kinder, lovelier people. I’m much more assertive. This isn’t meant to be about me, just to say it’s possible. I’ve found therapy to be brilliant for this, so good luck and keep persevering with that. The Counselling Directory has loads of different therapists if you can afford to pay. Don’t feel shy about speaking to them on the phone to make sure they’re the right therapist for you. Also you can ask if they offer low cost places if you’re on a lower income at the moment.

Hi all, longtime lurker here.

I’m not brave enough to share my story yet, but I’ve realised I come from a family of narc personalities and that I am hugely codependent on them since I was a child. I have panic attacks daily and am sometimes afraid to speak.

I want to ask what your experiences have been obtaining face to face talking therapy on the NHS. I have a telephone assessment this week with a nurse, I need help managing the attacks, I don’t know what triggers my attacks other than ‘sensory overload’. I’d also like talking support as I detach from my parents. Have I any hope of help for this on the NHS?

Thank you

Hi, Craicmammy, thank you for sharing. I'm afraid it isn't easy to get talking therapy on the NHS, there's a waiting list and you only get a few sessions. I think your best bet could be MIND, they only ask for a donation and only what you can afford.

Alternatively, you can pay privately, a lot of counsellors offer discounts if the full cost (I paid £35 per session, my counsellor would have offered £25 if I'd said £35 was too much). You also need to check that any private therapist is BACP registered, there are a lot of so called therapists who can do more harm than good.

HTH.

It may be dependent on you local trust, so I won't say it would be easy but I was offered face to face when I was struggling with anxiety and panic attacks about 18m ago. Unfortunately their schedule and mine wasn't compatible so I did it via the phone. They were very helpful though a lot of my anxiety and panic comes from my medical conditions so can wallop me at any point.

It was only offered after and initial phone session though, so they could assess what I needed. Please don't be put off if that's what you get given first.

Good luck.

Thank you Lizzie48 and Hashiaslarry I really appreciate you replying. Trying not to get anxious about it all.

I’m so glad I found this thread

I've come on to rant about my DM. She won't accept my no for an answer. There's a conference connected with the work I'm doing which takes place overseas for a week. I'd love to go, obviously, but my DH and I have decided that it's not appropriate, because it's a big expense to go (it's a charity), I haven't been for 5 years and my presence isn't needed. In addition, it's around the time of my younger DD's birthday and I've booked a party that I need to be here to organise.

So it was a no brainer, and I said that to DM. She has now sent me a long email, saying she's getting into 'problem solving mode'. She listed ways in which she could help me so I could go.

The main issue is that she just refuses to respect my 'no'! I haven't said it's a problem to be solved, she decides what 'problems' she needs to solve for me!! In this case, I've accepted that it's the right decision for our family. Our DDs are adopted with attachment issues and not being here for an extended period is not an option.

I suppose it also makes me resentful of the fact that her priorities were so different. She always put her work first and didn't consider the impact of her actions on us. (And she would have gone, and left us with our abusive father, but I need to let that one go, don't I??)

Just a little rant here. I had thought most of my mother’s weirdness was directed at me, that no one else noticed and that I was being over sensitive. I no longer answer the house phone because her calls are really odd (switching from soppiness to criticism then repeating the same few stories about herself that have no connection with what we were talking about). Have cut visits to less than fortnightly cups of tea but sometimes birthdays etc pop up then we go for longer.

Anyway, first I had to cancel going to dinner at her house where several people were going. DS2 was ill (was off school and in bed for 2 days). There was some whining about this and COULDN’T we come, REEEEAAAAALLY?

Ignored that. Then DS2 was there very briefly (he got dropped off there with another family member after doing a day’s work in the school holiday).

He came home and said,”Is there actually something wrong with Grandma or is she just weird?” He then said,”She is so needy she won’t leave me alone”. And needy is just the right word, though I’d never thought of that before.

In the 5 mins he was there she’d spent ages trying to make him guess what his drink was (some sort of fruit juice) and wouldn’t leave him be. Then she decided he had to make the dog sit down so gave him a dog biscuit and badgered him into constantly “training” the dog (who has never had any training and isn’t going to learn now as he’s about 12!)

The thing is that DS1 is scared of dogs as my mother knows perfectly well. She refuses to believe it and is always trying to “introduce” my son to the dog.

She’s just so intense and can’t sit down and have a normal conversation. She has no idea about our daily lives because she never actually listens or asks anything.

Frith

Ranting may help you but its only a short term measure. Your mother is a long term problem you could really do without.

You really do need to further cut down on all the visits to your batshit toxic mother to a point whereby none of you visit her at all. She is what she is and its not your fault she is like this. Unfortunately her ways are also being further directed at your children as well which is not surprising either. What is going to make you your own self say no more from your mother?. Putting yourselves in her firing line just gives you more of the same from her.

She has trained you very well hasn't she?. You really do need to deal with your fear, obligation and guilt properly re your mother because your children are becoming involved in her dysfunction as well. She was also not a good parent to you when growing up and such people more often than not are dysfunctional as grandparents as well.

Thanks, Attila.

She hasn’t babysat for 5 years (this is quite a feat as I’ve been a single parent for exactly 13 years today!) One of my siblings is still at home - mid 30s and leading a very strange life - so there will always be crossed paths when collecting that sibling.

It is strange when my children really see her behaviour clearly and better than I do. DS2 once said “why is grandma always so nasty to grandad?”

She is just so controlling of everything. If she asks what we are doing (quite rare) she’ll then write it in big letters on her calendar. Her punishments of my sibling are the same she used when we were young - cancelling things, refusing to give him a lift (at the last minute) and recently, with no provocation, putting his 2 favourite shirts in the stove and burning them.

I'm a longtime lurker on this, but the stress of Christmas has me needing an outsider's/stranger's perspective because I have no idea what is "normal".

I also don't know where to start.

With exposure to friends' family dynamics, I can see that the dynamic that I am used to is dysfunctional. My father was a violent alcoholic. He died a decade ago when his liver gave out. My mother was an "enabler". She stayed with him despite the beatings. I spent most of my childhood feeling unwanted and on edge. But I escaped at 18 & got a degree, then a decent job hundreds of miles away from my hometown. I married the first man who showed an interest. He became very emotionally abusive, supported me distancing myself from my family, isolated me from friends ... and again I was feeling unwanted and on edge. I left him just after my dad died. Ironically, it was the death of my father that gave me the strength to leave my XH. My DD is struggling with her mental health following some appalling behaviour fromXH. I need my energy for her.

I have a new-ish DP who enjoys spending time with his parents and siblings. We spend Xmas with them and it's lovely. I don't enjoy spending time with my remaining family and struggle to see the point of doing things that cause me emotional pain. Is this bad? Because I genuinely don't know.

I haven't seen my mother over Xmas. I had planned to at a sibling's house, but she had already gone home before I arrived. I tried contacting her on NYD, but she didn't pick up her phone. She did not try to call me. She never calls me. Yet repeatedly complains by email that I don't ever ring her. We seem to be in some kind of surreal stand off. I should ring her today, but find myself writing this instead. DP doesn't really understand my reluctance. I 'm not sure I understand it either. I just don't see the point of forcing communication that I'm doing through obligation.

I could go on.

So, am I "normal" or do I need to get my head out of my rear end and fulfil my obligations as a daughter with a bit more compassion and grace?

Lizzie how did your mum find out about the conference? Did you tell her? Did you give her your reasons for not going? If so, I wonder if you would get less grief if you simply said "I'm not going, it doesn't work for me this year" or something similar? No justification? Because you don't have to justify your actions on this to your mother, and she needs to realise that!

pastimeperfect, congratulations on getting away both from your abusive family of origin and then your DH. It sounds as if you are finally getting some time to be happy, and focusing on your DD, which is fantastic.
I think if you come from a dysfunctional family, your priorities have to be 1) yourself (you're no help to anyone if you're not well yourself) 2) your kids and then 3) your parents, assuming you can be around them without being retraumatised.
I don't know what your mother is like but my dad was the enabler and although I loved him, what I remember from knowing him as an adult is that he took an incredible amount of energy to deal with, even though he was benign unlike my mother. He wanted all his thinking done for him. There's a phrase I've heard used in these parts, "don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm".
So I think your reaction about phoning your mother is something you should listen to.

She gets the email updates, that's why. I've dealt with it now by being very firm, why I find that hard I don't know. I think what gets to me is that she wouldn't have even thought about whether her decisions impacted on us, so my brother ended up in 7 schools by the age of 7, and was bullied in several of them. She just did what she wanted or what my father wanted, we just didn't come onto her radar.

This time, I expressed regret that I couldn't go, but I was content that my decision was right for my daughters, ie putting them first. I was just thinking, my M just couldn't do the same when we were growing up.

Hi Lizzie

re your comment:-
"She just did what she wanted or what my father wanted, we just didn't come onto her radar"

And she still does this now, she has not changed a bit and she wants to rule it over you still by imposing her own self onto you. She was not a good parent to you (an understatement) when you were growing up and is a poor example of a grandmother to your children now. I would certainly keep them well away from your mother and father particularly in the event they are still together.

What sort of relationship does your brother have with parents these days?.

My father died 20 years ago, Attila. My brother abused us too, but he was a victim at the same time. So my DDs don't have any contact with him. (They're adopted, have enough stuff to deal with, plus he's like another child to be looked after.

My brother's relationship with my M is toxic. She's always sorted all his financial problems and he has a learned helplessness about him. He constantly asks her for help and then runs on her when she does help him. She's 78 so it can't go on really.

My DSis and I can't be around him as he's got it into his head that our father was a saint. (We all repressed the memories for years, DSis and I have been processing them for the last few years.

Past I think we have the same mother, I can share your current feelings. I texted mine saying I was surprised by her lack of contact, was there an issue. I got a one word reply No. I wasn’t surprised by the response. At the moment I am getting lots of needy messages designed to make my feel guilty. They are just making me so angry, she really doesn’t have any right to try and make me feel guilty.

I feel awful this evening but strong also. My df was awful the other night and despite no contact from them he said he never did so why now. That I was covering up and DM is sick (yet well enough for a night away with friends so she wasnt there). He offered sh tea and deliberately not me. I don't think I can visit again. Just awful. They will want to see my DC and they tend to hint at dh bringing them. Dh is going to say that we go as a family or not at all. They dong want me though. It is all such mess. I spent today with my in laws who are loving and welcoming.

Just got back on here Flappyears. So good to hear the positivity from you. I obviously don't know you but love to hear that you're proud of yourself in the face of all the 'rubbish'. That's massive. Be proud!
Your words mean so much, and thanks again for replying. I wasn't sure if anyone would. Stay strong!

Arghh!!! I am so pissed off with myself! I had managed to go nc with my dad for 4 months, bliss, no backbiting, no criticism, nothing. Was still hearing all the shit about how terrible I am not to call, blah blah. from my brother

I was really worried with run up to Christmas, and stupidly at the very last min, decided to text him saying I was doing a present run on a certain date (still in control), I did the run, he decided he was too busy for five mins, us hanging around like a limpet, kids faces looking crushed, whilst he farted about doing nothing. Nearly said f it and go, but obviously that would be totally unreasonable and I would be the bad person. He decided to then grant us his attention. At no point did he ask how I was, or the kids. he tried to get my eldest to slip up, dad is very intelligent and feels that it's appropriate to 'test' people as and when he chooses, my son answered all the questions, which resulted in him being called a smart arse. My 2dd's have missed him and wanted to spend a bit of time. He spent the rest of the time 'woe is me', saying no one will want my stuff when I'm dead etc, I eventually managed to get away about an hour or so later.

Kids called him on Christmas day to say thanks, I spoke to him then and text him on nye. Now receiving text saying 'i haven't spoken to him since before christmas', then another 'only got a text on new year'. I replied (prob shouldn't) that I spoke Christmas, text new year, done a lot more than what he's done.

One hour I have seen this man and he thinks he can dictate again. It's pointless saying to him why I don't want to talk, year's of abuse, physical, verbal and emotional, because all I would get is denial and twisting it to poor him and I'm horrible.

I can't stand this man, he is not a dad to me, he doesn't love me, never has done anything nice, unless it's for his purpose.

Terrible to say, but I wish he was dead, that's awful, because when he does die, I know I will be devastated, not for losing this nasty man, but for losing the man he could have been. I want a dad that will listen, be kind and caring and an 'all girls love their dad's' type of dad.

Sorry just needed to vent.

lou

Its not your fault your dad is the ways he is, you did not make him that way. His own family of origin did that.

You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Do not put yourself let alone your children up to receiving such emotional manipulations from him ever again.

Think your brother was the flying monkey here acting in his own self interest rather than yours. He should have been ignored by you really.
You made a mistake in contacting and one that should not happen again, you've hopefully learnt some lessons here.

Deal properly with your own fear, obligation and guilt re your dad through seeing a therapist. If you have not already read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward do so, its a good starting point.

The level of contact you have needs to be again lowered to a point of zero. Do not contact him further and now block him. You had peace during the no contact period but unfortunately a door was opened that should have remained closed. Any contact from you to him opens that door to give him an "in" to bother you even more with.

I also doubt very much that your DDs have missed him very much if at all actually; that is your perception and one that may have come about also because of your brother's persistent witterings and the fantasy notion that Christmas is supposed to be about families. How do they feel as well seeing their brother get called a smartarse by their granddad as well?.

You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, your dad is no different. At the very least you need to raise your own boundaries a lot higher because between your brother and your dad, you were played like a violin. These people are master manipulators and you should have nothing to do with them. They are masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again".

Attilla, thank you for replying. Seeing it written down is awful, but so true. I have been played.

I don't think my brother does it on purpose, bit of a peacemaker, or tries to be, but them he says something and it's as if my dad is talking. That man has indoctrinated us, that even though he's an arshole he's hard to get our of his grasp. When I told my db about some abuse that I remembered, he said 'well it wasn't sexual was it?' as if the abuse I suffered was fine then. No, it wasn't, apart from patting bottom and checking 'what I'm wearing' whilst in bed.

Db was repeating what dad partner was saying.

You are right, I can't let him back in our lives again.