"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello I just need to vent somewhere where people will understand and not minimise my feelings. I’ve just got back from visiting my DM, and argh!!!! She drives me crazy! She here are my excuses for her. She was neglected and abused as a child. She’s done the best she can and is capable of. It wasn’t good enough and I go through cycles of understanding and forgiving to ‘how the hell could she think this is ok?’.
My rant.
She never has food in her fridge when I come to stay. She kicked me out when I was 16, more than 20 yrs ago. I e always had to bring food with me. She literally had 1 spring onion and half a jar of chutney. I visited with DS and she knew we were coming to stay.
I had to carry my own bags in from the car. I’m disabled and had to go back and forwards 6 times, because I can’t carry much due to my disability and the pain of walking is just so intense. She doesn’t even try to understand what is going on with my health. My condition is genetic and she doesn’t believe that I have it, because it didn’t come from her!! I use a wheelchair outside of the house, yet she would t be able to say the name of my condition or demonstrate any understanding of it.
She’s self absorbed and only talks about herself, or asks me about stuff (possessions) I have and should she buy one. Then she normally buys something just because I have it. Argh! There’s about 100 other rants I need to get out, but fucking hell why can’t she just buy some fucking food?!
Thank you

Thank you again toomuch and will try to refrain from apologising for being pathetic.
I hope you can regain some autonomy over your life. It is so hard to give up your career and thus your options. I remember telling myself, when living in an extremely poor country, that I had nothing to complain about because I had food and a roof over my head.
I did lots of things, as much as I could, in whatever situation I found myself in and I think people thought I was an interesting person but yes I was made to feel inferior by some who were working despite the fact I was home educating my younger children. But then thinking about it isn’t that their problem is they only value people (and themselves) by what job they do and how much money they earn ?
It was not all bad. There are experiences I had that I would not have missed.
16 years ago I managed to get funding for a PhD. Loved every minute of it. Finished, looked at my bright, shining future and then became ill.
So now I am dependent and there are very, very good reasons why I can’t leave aside from the fact that anything I do on a good day knocks me out totally for quite a long time. Wherever I went I would be a burden on somebody.
I have not been complaining, tried to do what I can do make the best of my extremely limited life but then all this unresolved shit from the past hit me.
I know what you are saying is right but I cannot feel it. But then I suppose I am being unrealistic to think that a facade built up so long ago will disappear just when I want it to. So baby steps.
It seems that you are managing much better than I did and I really hope you are. It is so easy to put DH and DC first and never think about oneself.
I bought a book a long time ago called ‘Animated Baggage - the adventures of a trailing spouse’. The content didn’t live up to the title but I really liked the title.

Our ndn popped over last night and I told her what's happened with my parents. She asked dh how he feels about it, tbh I've been so busy processing it all I didn't think about him

Turns out he's appalled. He hasn't really doubted that stuff I've said was true, but seeing it with his own eyes has blown his mind. He can't understand why, if I've had words with my mother (and he knows what happened because I called him to vent afterwards, plus to warn him as they often use him to try to get to me) that my father would just cut me off without even listening to my side. And that they've cut the DC off for such a trivial thing at a time that's meant to be about family.

No one can seemingly reconcile that, no matter what was claimed to have happened by mum. If nothing else I feel a lot better because no one is telling me I'm crazy or that it's my fault for not giving in. Also because someone else, dh in this case, has finally witnessed the batshittery.

He's massively hurt they would do that to their own gcs. He also knows that I wouldn't have cut them off without discussing it with him, as when the relationship with my sister broke down it was a decision dh and I both took wrt DCs.

My world has become a lot more sane thanks to him, though sadly his has got a lot less sane.

Paperweight you've just described my M to a T. She's exactly the same in terms of how she behaves in a group. The scary thing is that I've only noticed in the last year and before that I thought it was perfectly normal.

Dailymail that sounds really bloody frustrating. Do you know what the food thing is about? Is it some hangup from childhood? I've heard of people who grow up with hoarders being phobic about food going off, could it be something like that? Not that it makes it any easier to cope with, and the thing with your disability is really crap. My mother used to pull this shit as well. You were only allowed an illness or chronic condition if it fit her world view, which sadly my asthma and my dad's Alzheimer's didn't.
It does sound like you've got your mother's number and that she doesn't get under your skin though which is cool. And if ranting helps we're happy to listen

Smiling you apologize if you like - I hope this doesn't come over as glib, I really mean it sincerely - you can say whatever you want and we will listen. And if you feel pathetic, honour that feeling - it's your feeling, it's allowed to be felt - but I hope you don't mind if I say I don't see you as pathetic.
What's your PhD in, if you don't mind me asking? I have a PhD in chemistry. I found it bloody terrifying doing original research but the thing about growing up like us, everything's terrifying, I used to find it terrifying getting on the bus

I'm starting to not care about whether people pity me for being a SAHM - it's taken a while. But the whole thing with my mother, going NC, has made me just care a lot less about what awful people think. I think I am a lot more aware now of the fact that people have their own agenda when they say stuff, concern trolling, that sort of stuff. What does frustrate me is that my copping on about my mother and NPD and the bullying and how it's been repeated across my life - I got that insight right at the point where we moved abroad and I stopped working so I never got the chance to go back into adult life and see what effect my new outlook would have.

Hashi I'm glad you are getting this validation from your DH and I bet he is glad too. I know what you mean about inflicting less than sane in-laws on someone though

I'm sorry your M is the same spare. Talking about inlaws, it was fine with DP because he's patient with her. I find her behaviour less easy to ignore in other settings, especially with the rest of DPs family. I think her behaviour will reflect on me.

But I've read a lot of your stories and I feel like I've nothing to complain about.

Thanks toomuch. DM’s childhood was without food a lot of the time. She lives in state pension, which I know isn’t a lot, and pleads poverty. But she has 2 laptops, 50 inch TV, smartphone, 2 tablets etc. Not bought in credit either. So she chooses where her priorities are. She never buys me a Christmas or birthday present, but no hint if irony when she gives me her list of what she wants. She even reminds me when it’s her dogs birthday but I have to remind her when it is her grandsons birthday.

When I keep my distance I’m ok but visits are really hard and I start spiralling between ranting, drinking and wanting to scream. Thanks so much for letting me prattle on!

Paperweight, feeling like you "didn't have it that bad" is almost a qualification for Stately Homes membership (it's in the OP - lots of us feel like that) but your mother's behaviour that you described in your first post was bloody outrageous and I'm guessing that was only the most obvious example or the easiest to explain.

Dailymail no bother

Sat here in the early hours, swigging leftover Christmas sherry and crying. I think we're (dh and I) going to have to go NC with DD (26). Too much past to go into but I know you guys will understand that I have already gone NC with parents 20 years ago. Had a lot of therapy re learning to put myself first (apart from when dc were growing up obviously) and not getting involved with toxic people. I think my dd has become toxic and it's making us ill. What's making it even more difficult is that she's ill, physically and mentally (we think). She's only recently left home to house share with friends. She'd previously been to uni and has a degree. Became depressed at uni, had antidepressants, would never do her share of cleaning and flatmates sick of her. Came home, stopped meds immediately, saying she felt much better, which I advised against but she ignored. Got a good job but not many hours so we let her live here rent free, no bills etc. Paid for her own food and car. Became depressed again and also has joint problems and pcos which affects hormones. We are in our 60's and do everything in the home. Dd has never so much as washed a teaspoon! Just cooked her own meals, then left dirty dishes. We tried to negotiate a plan, giving her just a few tasks because of her joints, etc, but every time we tried to discuss she became tearful and anxious. I'm disabled, dh my carer and between us we were doing everything (mostly dh) She persuaded us to 'lend' her our life savings for a course. Never finished the course due to anxiety and depression, now on antidepressants again. Last year she just spent, spent, spent and gradually borrowed another thousand from us. We can now see that she did this through manipulation. That was our holiday money to go abroad in winter so we couldn't go, but she did! She's just come back from a month abroad, staying in hostels with friends, on meds but smoking dope. Went to pick hef up from airport yesterday, advised her not to smoke weed with meds. Tried to explain we'd been to gp's and managed to get her meds (she'd run out), tried to organise a meetup with her dbro at weekend cos we all still have xmas presents to exchange and she said she'd just got off the plane and couldn't talk about any of it! Then, told us all the things that had gone wrong on holiday. Her new meds had dropped on the floor, we suggested she put them in her bag so as not to lose them. She refused "can't think of that just now", then told us that she had NO money whatsoever. So, nothing towards the 45 petrol to pick her up and nothing towards family late xmas dinner at weekend. Tomorrow (today) she will call round to do her paperwork (still has office in our house) and will probably cook herself a meal and leave all the dirty dishes. Has gp and counselling appointments coming up but won't let me go with her (even just to sit in waiting room) then will tell us how she came out so distraught she could hardly drive. Her dbro is autistic, in supported living and she doesn't do anything to help him except to cut his hair twice a year. I think that's because she enjoys it, so again it's something for her. It's now looking as though she may be bipolar, I'm at my wits end. I can't keep fighting with her in trying to help her, have enough difficulties with my disabilities and helping, keeping an eye on autistic son. But, how can we go NC with our only daughter who has pcos, joint probs, bi polar and anxiety/depression? But we have nothing left of ourselves to give, emotionally, financially, physically. We've had it! Sorry this is so long.
.

Sorry my post above is in a block, typing on a tablet which won't do paragraphs. Still crying, but managed to stop drinking sherry, not supposed to drink alcohol due to autoimmune hepatitis. Dh and I have a big decision to make, we can't go on like this. We would appreciate any comments. Another thing is, dd's friend took an overdose a few months ago, it was dd who found her and took her to hospital, obviously absolutely traumatic for both of them. Following that, dd told us she'd had suicidal thoughts during schooldays, when I asked which year she replied all through schooldays. But I used to make sure she was ok regularly with chats, because her dbro had to go into residential care when she was 11, so both ourselves and teachers used to make sure she was ok with it. Now she says she's feeling like this again, has told mh team, but angry because they put it in her records yet she stipulated she'd had these thoughts but would never ever act on them. Well of course they're going to record it, this has enabled her to get quite quickly into counselling. I've been trying to arrange the counselling for her, but she just shot off abroad with hardly any notice. She says she can't "talk about this right now", so today I'm going to give the counsellor dd's number instead of me being the go between. I had cancer when dd was 15 and she only came to hospital twice in a month, but sent me a letter saying she didn't like hospitals but she loved me very much. Now she says her friends were saying at that time, they didn't believe her mum had cancer (this is because she used to tell a lot of lies). When I was recovering, I went to the school parents evening and one of her teacher's said " I bet you're glad of the help from dd, whilst you've been ill", I felt too embarrassed and ashamed to admit she gave us no help at all! Now, we're thinking that the times she has been thoughtul and caring was just a ruse to keep getting what she wanted/needed. Can't believe we're even thinking this way, we're just devasted. This is how my dm was and we finally went NC 20 years ago. Is it possible that dd is like dm, can it be passed through genes? Have tried just stepping back rather than full NC, but it didn't work. DD always manages to sort of inveigle herself back into our thoughts/lives. We had a few days away in summer (dd was still living at home) and when we returned she said she'd had the worst depression ever while we were away!

Bubbaleo your DD sounds like a hard work but I don't get why you would be so drastic as to go NC..how about yout start with enforcing boundaries first? As in don't give her your money if you don't like what she does with it, don't let her cook in your home if she leaves a mess? Maybe meet up with her at neutral ground for a while?

She is a troubled adult but also your child..you seem to have big expectations of her "helping" you..maybe stop expecting anything and also don't indulge..you are her mother but you don't owe her anymore and really she doesn't owe you either...

NC sounds very extreme..also are you sure your DD is like your DM and you are not projecting?

bubb you ask if it possible for this to be passed down. Did your DM display symptoms of bipolar too? It is becoming believed that this can run in families, so it is possible. If you're just talking behaviours, it may be hard to tell whether your dd is like this, or its her illnesses. Not that you should put up with her behaviour of course, and you can't make her help herself. Could your gp signpost you to somewhere that may be able to help you, whether that's just support for you having an ill family member or so you can sure up your boundaries again? You really sound like you're having a rough time of it

paper I think feeling that its not as bad is normal too. When crap happened within my family when I was younger I was always told I was overreacting because I didn't have it as bad as my parents did growing up. I've realised now that, no I didn't, but just because it could be worse doesn't make things any less bad.

daily yy to minimising of medical conditions here too. I have chronic illnesses, this means nothing to my parents because they aren't known to them and they have no interest in finding out. Probably because they'd have to elicit some sort of sympathy which would require them to think of someone other than themselves. When anyone else is hospitalised though, they both have a tendency to try to make it about them and their feelings rather than the ill person too. So I suppose if they did bother it would be used as fodder to get sympathy from others for them.

My parents used to say things like that, Hashi, and my DM used to get very defensive if DSis or I talked to another adult about things that were happening at home. She said that we shouldn't share private information outside the home, and we had nothing to complain about as we had a happy home life.

Ah yes Lizzie, the defensive happy home argument. Shame it's only happy for them and for as long as you shut up about it

I sat my DC down today and explained to them about their GPS. In the nice friendly terms as suggested on the last thread. Thank you for those btw, it's worked a treat.

DC were gutted. Then I said you still have your other GPS at which point their relief was palpable as they thought I was talking about ils and not my parents .

DC now very happy and not fussed in the slightest. I otoh shall have some tonight. I'm feeling sad for them even if they aren't. I suppose you can't miss what you never really had. Especially at 5 and 7.

Is anyone about to talk to me. I have has a long history of a DM who has put me down, agressive but not physical and have pulled away but nc past two months. Df rang dh and I went to visit but I got shouted down, told I was a disgrace, they gave their lives to me. That if they die I needn't look for any sympathy. They never contacted me - not once. I just quietly pulled away from their drama. Constant putting down. But I feel awful. I think it is permanent nc now. My DM used to ring mW to clean for her e end in very late pregnancy but since I had my own DC I got caught up in my own world. I also have a very supportive dh and df told him he was amazing but gave me a filthy look. To top it off DM is in a hotel tonight living it up while she plays the poor me card again.

I am just at a loss. I didn't mean to go nc - it happened just because I was tired of put downs and dirty looks and remarks about e everyone's daughter being better than me.

I’m so sorry littlelamb. It is classic stately home behaviour to not acknowledge that they did anything wrong and to try and victim blame you. It’s awful because it would be so healing to be heard and have your feelings validated. Well done though for not allowing to be perpetuated by choosing a supportive dh. So many survivors of childhood neglect and abuse feel so worthless they can get preyed on by abusive partners.

Nc may be the only way to protect yourself. Your parents seem determined to continue the cycle of putting you down. All the unfavourable comparisons, saying they gave up their lives for you, dirty looks are also well used tactics. Rather like ‘the script’ for unfaithful husbands, there also seems to be a script for these kind of parents. If you read through these threads, so much will resonate with you. But this tells you something vv important. Their behaviour is down to THEM and nothing to do with you or how you have behaved or who you are.

So sorry you are a member of this club but you are not alone

flappy I appreciate you taking the time to post. I am very cut up tonight but I am a strong person. I wish it could be normal. I could go into every detail about why I have pulled away but they dont see anything.

He said they have told all my aunts and uncles and neighbours about me. Dh stepped in with 'why didn't anyone contact lamb' and df said they never contacted me so stop covering up the fact that I didn't want anything to do with them.

little I had this a while back with my parents. I was ill, just about functioning to get the DC fed, to school,etc. Went a similar amount of time not contacting them. Id not contacted anyone else either because I was just surviving. I got a lot of abuse for it with a similar outcome - it doesn't matter that they didn't bother, because I didn't. No reason was good enough. In the end I turned around and said you managed to pick up a phone in order to have a to at me so you're able to pick it up if you want to just talk to me.
It's all a play to put you in your place. They're insistent that you're a naughty child forgetting the important aspect - they're meant to be the adults.
It does feel awful when shit like this gets pulled.

I'm so sorry that I've not read previous threads. I've been deliberating whether to post for days/weeks or to phone Samaritans.

Rubbish family situation.....short story..my parents had me young (15/16) and were very dysfunctional. Dad often is prison, we (myself and 2 years younger sibling) were late to school every day etc

Two siblings were born when I was around age 10. I adored them but was also expected to parent them.

My mother was horrible to me growing up - often called me a cunt and a madam and publicly humiliated me. And often hit me - in the face knocking my tooth out once - no reaction from her!

What I'm struggling with is how she is now with one of my siblings and his children - he also had children at age 15. And his children now have children. She is the Fairy Fucking God Mother and I'm chewed up with resentment for myself and my children, who she has not been stable for.

Sorry for this outpouring but I have nowhere else to turn!

Yes little it’s another tactic to get other people to either gang up against you or act as intermediaries, but always acting to push the parents’ agenda - look up ‘flying monkeys’.

They really want everything on their terms. By going NC you will have incensed them because you are exerting control over your own life. How much contact you have with them is really up to you but don’t let them guilt you into seeing them. Also, try not to give away too much about your life if you do see them, as these kinds of parents will use any information against you if it suits them.

My df pointed out to sh how amazing he was and offered him tea. He gave back presents I gave them and told me I was the cause of DM illness and now on depression medications (she always has the illness and medications - I know because I was always sent to the pharmacy to collect them. Plus she leaves them lying around to show people).

Hi little, I am sorry things are so difficult at the moment. From what you have written I get a sense that you are noticing the control and put downs much more and quite rightly choosing not to take this. You should not be treated in this way, not of what your mother feels is your fault, she is an adult. Unfortunately I have found this new knowledge starts another stage of the journey, the grief and sense of what you have become more present and the associated emotions. I have felt grief, angry and a need for retribution (pointless I know). Be gentle on yourself, remember you can only control what you feel and do.

I don't know where to go from here. My parents don't have much money but she wasn't there last night but at a hotel and a show with a friend. This is the type of thing she 'needs' because of stress (this time caused by me). Yet if I don't visit I am shot down (I work full time and two small dc) and some of the things said to me last night were so hurtful. I was always a good daughter. I cleaned and did all errands and everything up until my own DC (literally two in 13 months) and she went mad I had c sections as I couldn't drive to visit. She gets me to clean my brothers house with dried up faeces on the toilet and then all I get told is I am a boring person / awkward / everyone else's son or daughter is good . kind etc.