"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi dalecooper

re your comment:-

"My sister is completely NC and I do hear from third parties who only have DM's version of events how "terrible" my sister is. I suppose I don't want to be the "terrible" one for ignoring DM in her hour of need.

It has scared me how little I care about this news, my concern is really that everything is have constructed to feel safe and ok is being challenged. I can't decide if this makes me a narc too"

As Lizzie correctly states this does not make you a narcissist.

I would now block all the third party flying monkeys who tell you how terrible your sister supposedly is. They are also not interested in hearing your side of things and such easily manipulated people are often sent in by people like your mother to do their bidding for them.

She is no contact with your mother too for very good reason. Ultimately you would likely have to do the same.

BTW my narcissist late FIL was diagnosed with a form of cancer. I did feel a modicum of sympathy for the fact he was diagnosed with this but that was about it. He had also done way too much harm over the years to his family and was the epitome of a bystander to boot.

Dressingdown

Both your parents failed you abjectly here didn't they. I also think your brother needs you still far more than you need him because he still sees you as a mother figure. Self preservation here is necessary and he has caused you a lot of emotional pain too.

I would certainly read up on codependency in relationships.

Thank you, Attila

I think db does see me as a mother figure and that is what caused his original outburst last week. He said I reminded him of our mother when we were talking and "a red mist descended" on him. We both had a sort of love/hate relationship with our mother, very dramatic and explosive on her part.

I can easily forgive the outburst but his cruel remarks afterwards about my relationships with our children and grandchildren still really hurt and show his underlying criticism and judgement of me, which is hard to take. It has just occurred to me that maybe db is jealous of the attention I give to my family, just like a small child when new siblings come along.

I have done a little research into co-dependency and it seems to fit my relationship with db. I am always trying to help him and I make too many allowances for his anxiety, very often pandering to his illogical demands. I am concerned about him now because I know that he will be missing me and be very anxious to get our relationship back on an even keel. However, this time he has caused too much emotional pain to dh as well as to me. I am not prepared to accept this drama and pain.

toomuchtooold kindly suggested that I might want to deal with the internal fall out of posting amoung the "normals" about Stately Home style issues here, rather than on my own, so...

Hi I'm Cesira and I'm a Dynamics of Estrangement Addict. It's been 18 hours since my last post on the subject cos bloody MN deleted the thread before I'd even finished revving up

Hi

I haven't posted here in years. I was one of those posters years ago who started off by saying I feel guilty, it wasn't that bad then ended up admitting many of the horrific and humiliating things my repulsive father and enabling mother put me and my sister through. This thread really helped me see thaty it wasn't OK, and that my life long chronic depression probably was caused by the way I was raised.

But I'm back because they are old, desperately needy, vampiric in their use of anyone who comes in contact with them (and they have so many unpaid hangers on - why is that? Why do friends and relatives scuttle around them like lackeys being bitterly bitched about behind their backs when they are not actively running expensive, time consuming errands or sitting listening to monologues os self pity and self aggrandisement?)

Having decided for a year that my sister was the Black Sheep, they are moving near my brother. But his wife's just died and I'm scared witless that they'll suck every last drop of blood from his life. They'll be hundreds of miles away. What can I do to help him? He's a very sweet person and in bereavement. They will expect every whim to be met. I'm tough as old boots with them now. I help out as and when I feel able. If they suck me in (they often do) I back off and breathe until I feel whole again. But what can I do to help my brother? He's in denial about how vicious and vampiric they are.

Unfortunately Mina there is nothing you can do to help your brother. You cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. Denial too is a powerful force.

Such people like your father need a willing enabler to help them and that person here is your mother. Your dad also relies on well meaning but useless and easily manipulated people to do their bidding for them, the flying monkeys. The flying monkeys should be ignored by you as well because they are not interested in hearing your side of things.

But what can I do to help my brother?

I think my younger sister used a really good set of strategies when she was in your shoes.

I wasn't bereaved, just knackered because DH and I were also caring for late MIL, who was very mentally ill. But being a glutton for punishment, I brought my mother over to live with us after her and my brother's spectacular choices left her homeless.

It was insanely hard for my sister to watch. Because I was blind and did not want to see.

I think my sister played it pretty much perfectly, she couldn't stop me, but she spent the whole time mum was here laying crash pads on the ground for the inevitable fall.

She kept in constant contact. Never raised again her concerns in case it pushed me on the defensive. Just focused on asking how I was, and doing anything she could to take the maternal load off as far as her own (much better) boundaries would allow.

And she stuck with me like glue when the inevitable crash happened. Dealt with mum's flights and rehousing once she was back in England. Refused to engage with that tales of woe about what an awful daughter I am. Was polite but clear with family who had heard about my awfulness, by telling them that some one sided versions are not just not the whole truth, but in some case ...complete bollocks.

I can not fault my little sister. Not in any single way. She was a star and she handled it as well as the situation would allow. When you can't save somebody from making an error of blindness, all you can do is give them a non judgment free opportunity to vent as they go through it and get ready to catch them when they fall.

Having been through it on my end, I actually think your side looks worse emotionally. I would find it unbearable to watch my sister wander into a bear trap that she couldn't, wouldn't see. So I feel for you so much, particularly with the additional weight of a bereavement to add to the concern.

non judgment free opportunity

EDIT - Delete the non.

It was judgement free. Which is why I felt able to slowly open up and be gradually more honest about how awful it was. And she never ever said told you so. By doing that she shunted out of the way the barriers between me and telling the truth about my slow, painful recognition of my mother's issues.

@Cesiraandenrico - that is such a brilliant and insightful post. Thank you.
So the plan is: stay in contact with my lovely brother.
Always check on his welfare first.
Back him up when they inevitably badmouth him (it's started already.)
Back him up if and when he decides he can;t take it any more.
Move fast when the crash happens (they'll need to go into retirement care if they suck him bone dry. I can check there are good local homes.)

Luckily they have pots of money because they leech off others at every available opportunity and hoard every penny, so care is affordable.

I'm going to share this with my sister.
Have I missed anything off the list?

Attila - Flying Monkeys - I'd forgotten there was a name for them. That means there's a social pattern that repeats itself around malign narcissists. Why do people love being bullied and enslaved? That freaks me out as much as the fact he can't see he's doing it. He still thinks of himself as a benign, charismatic, universally adored, mildly eccentric breath of fresh air. he's actually a relentlessly self-pitying manipulative bully.

There's something missing.

You need to start working on the design of your World's Best Sister certificate.

I have no illusions about how horrible and hard this was for my sis. None at all.

And honestly, were it not for her, I don't know how I could have made it through.

She didn't just get me through the reality of mum full time by offering the ears I needed rather than the mouth I tended to pull back from. Or the intensely painful transition when the scales were falling from my eyes, damn near taking my whole head with them. She also gifted me the last relatively "mum's life bombs" free decade and a half by quietly, surreptitiously positioning me to be in a place to chose them.

All behind my back and at her own personal cost cos I know it was agony for her to have to watch me go through it, while she was busily strewing crash mats left, right and centre in the hope I'd land on them, rather than miss and hit concrete.

Your brother is a lucky man. I hope you know that. 😘😘

Fuck. I'm going to amazon. Remembering all of this, what she did for me, I'd buy her a trip to Hawaii if I could, but in lieu of what I can't afford, at the very least she deserves a surprise "I haven't forgotten, I still appreciate more than I can express" present.

Nah. I'll hold off on the certificate design until I've passed some of the early modules

You sound like a lovely sister to her too Cesira. I'm going to phone my brother tonight, see how he is. Just to get him used to me listening. Hope you find something just right on Amazon.

MinaPaws

I think you are going to do great. But it will probably be painful. So don't forget to take care of you too and get support where you need it.

I know BIL and my sisters friends really came through for her when she was struggling with watching me go through the tunnel until I was ready to go "Fuck me. Sis's was right. This is no way to live. Bollocks to this shit I'm following the direction to the light".

So maybe there is something missing off the list. Making sure you make a priority of your own heart, head and soul too. By looking ahead at where your support crew can be found, so you know where to turn for a place to lean on during the really hard parts.

Well it's ended for me because DF died. And it's a direct cremation so no wake or anything. It's ended without a resolution. DSM is planning a family get together later in the year but they're not my family so I won't go. I hope DSM and her family are happy and wish them no grief but I'm devastated. No resolution, no completion, no saying goodbye - even if I decided I wanted to. No idea if my siblings will go.

I've been seeing my GP for a few months because of anxiety and this has brought back so many memories I had buried that the only way I have of coping is starting to self harm. So GP wants to send me to a psychiatrist, which means DM wins because she always said there was something mentally wrong with me. So she wins.

I hope one day to come back and tell everyone there's light at the end of the tunnel but right now all that's there is darkness.

Take care.

whyamIsoconfused I'm so sorry to hear about your father. Listen though, your mother has only won if it's winning to kick someone in the knee every day and then say "I always knew you had a limp" - it's them that's made all this so hard for you. You're the strong one, seeking help. Your mother dealt with her own demons by taking things out on you, her child.

but I'm devastated. No resolution, no completion, no saying goodbye - even if I decided I wanted to.

Oh sweetheart. In February I will hit three years with that reality.

The best thing I did was not resist (too much) when my GP took one look at me and arm twisted the system to fast track me into an appointment with a psychiatrist. The person who won from me going, was me. Not my mother. Me.

There is light. I can see it up ahead. I'm not standing bathed in it because I've taken an extended stop off in denial, cos I need to catch my breath. But the light is there. And I haven't lived in the pitch black all this time just because I'm not ready for the final leg forward. Black turns to a grey that gradually, imperceptibly lightens in shade over time, as the light all the way down the line starts to filter in.

You won't stay in the bone crushing, total dark of the beginning for the medium term, let alone in long haul. Not if there are any torches chucked your way, particularly in the shape of professionals. It's a light source that is well worth the struggle of picking up.

< enormous hug from a co-resident in the tunnel of very complicated grief >

You're the strong one, seeking help. Your mother dealt with her own demons by taking things out on you, her child

@toomuchtooold that is one of the most revelatory things I've ever heard. I'd never worked it out before and you've just put it into words. What we're ding is trying to work through painful childhood issues without damaging our children. What they did is work through painful childhood issues by bullying and manipulating their children. And that's why it's OK for us to feel angry about it. Because whatever happens in life, you don;t kick the cat. You don;t kick the one more vulnerable, the one who has no choice but to do as you say.

MinaPaws

^^That

Thank you. I still need to process but it helps to know I'm not alone.

((((((((((whyamisoconfused)))))))))

I'm so, so sorry love. I haven't forgotten the beginning.

GP is fast tracking me to a psych who apparently thinks he can help after a few days in hospital and the rest as out patient.

But it's my busiest time of year workwise and I'm self employed and have no help. I really don't know what to do.

why

I had much the same bind. I'm a freelancer. Don't work, don't get paid. And some clients tend to take it badly when they feel "let down" by my humanness getting in the way.

DH sold it to me as "head is more important than leg". And said that if it was my leg... I wouldn't be arguing with the doc if he wanted me off work to let him treat my broken leg. Because I'd make a priority of my health in the short term to protect my long term working ability.

As DH pointed out, unless I made the same priority of my head and let them start the fix, I'd lose everything I'd worked so hard to build. Cos I was so... broken.

I was off for a few weeks. It was a major blow financially. I lost a few clients. I went back to work with a much reduced workload because I was still so fragile. But I healed well enough to build it straight back up again once I was back to full steam . Turned out more clients recognise your humanness than don't.

All they knew was my father had died and the circumstances were particularly tragic. DH came up with that line and used it liberally. Pretty much designed to elicit comprehension there is Seriously Big Shit going down, while making people pull back from asking for any details, or expecting more "normal" grieving times/ways.

Problem is that it's a tax deadline and if the work isn't prepared and submitted to Revenue on time the client has to pay a penalty

Call your doctor again love. If there's a work around he's the person best placed to know how to manage the conflict between your work and your health.

Can you outsource it just this once, to make sure it's done on time, then check it and return it to them? Not ideal as you won't make much from it, but better than them paying a penalty and you losing a client.

When I get depressed, I find it so hard to remember there are actually other people in the world who can take some of the load and stress away.