"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Quick advice please?

DM wants to meet me in a cafe today to talk. I haven't sent the reply to her yet. I want to keep communication open but don't want to get pressured to change my mind about F. And worry that she'll get upset

No do not meet her even in a café. It could all go so very wrong and so very quickly.

No response from you is actually needed; its an invitation (and a loaded one at that) not a summons.

She has never worried herself at all about upsetting you and having you blundering around still trying to find your own self worth so please do not give her that consideration.

I would still like some kind of relating with her. So I replied that it depended what she wanted to chat about, happy to chat about us etc but not about F and I.

She replied that she'd been offering an olive branch but that it seems I'm not interested.

I'm not replying any further....

But not long ago I would have felt compelled to go. I'd have been full of anxiety. And it probably would have ended badly.

It's sad, but this was probably not a bad outcome

That was no olive branch she was offering you here.

You are wise indeed not to reply any further; what these people really want from you is a response because they know they have you then.

Yep rather a loaded olive branch that one!

Yeah the image I had in my head was of a large olive branch ready to swipe at me!

@Wrybread your situation sounds so similar to mine - although it's my DF doing the "bidding".

And I fell for it last week.

I have subsequently regrown my backbone and said "no" to any further suggestions that I do as I'm told. I had my sister on the phone today for an hour, telling me that she respects my decision to continue my life as a new and empowered woman, however that she cannot handle my having stated that previous behaviour by my mother was emotionally and financially manipulative, "like that of my ex".

I don't think we will ever agree, but my boundaries are being set firmly in place.

What is more is that I've made a decision to move forward in my life and to make my own decisions, rather than rely on input from my family. I actually think they just don't know how to cope with the reality of losing their scapegoat, their black sheep.

Yes, trying to live my life like that but still feeling the tug from them.

Is an interesting thought about them not having a scapegoat anymore. And if they're used to that dynamic they're looking for someone to fill it.

Even if we were miraculously reconciled, I'd still be the scapegoat, and even more so for having been 'disloyal'

It looks like me and DH are going to separate. I have been LC with narc M for several months now and she has promised to change and is getting some counselling. She’s not a full on ‘I’m so great and better than everyone else’ narc but more of a covert one, appearing to the world to be a warm, friendly, lovely woman who loves her family, but behind closed doors is nasty and spiteful, cannot take criticism and is always letting me and my sibling down.

Would I be wrong to look to her for support in what is going to be a very difficult time (2 young dc)? She would be there with bells on as she loves a bit of drama and I’m tempted to cry on her shoulder as I don’t have anyone else to turn to (well I do have friends but don’t want to burden them). Would it be a terrible idea?

Ok I'm joining this now. I've been lurking for a while wondering if what I experienced is really bad enough to go here. However I find myself in a difficult position, living back with parents, realized DH has been emotionally abusive despite my endeavor to find a man so unlike my DF. DF has broken his back falling downstairs drunk and is laid up for 6 weeks (with me a DM his reluctant carers). Last year I had a baby and it seems to have opened my eyes to so much. Today I will go to my first ACA meeting and I intend to start the journey of recovery for the sake of myself and DC. I'm not going to try to predict what will come of it. I'm just going to allow myself to acknowledge and feel the pain I've been shoving down all these years.

(I have done a new log in to post here as my previous posts may out me and I am only just really realising how bad things were, I'm not sure I'm ready for anyone who knows me to do the same).

A kind friend signposted me to this thread. Since having my own baby I have realised how toxic my home life was while I was growing up. I read through a definition for emotional abuse just now and that, like many of us, was what life was (is) like and will no doubt be familiar to many here. I do have contact with DM - I am very much 'grey rock' and tend not to initiate it but have found a balance which I have been happy with, to an extent.

But. DM has a cancer diagnosis. I am the only nearby family. I don't want to get sucked into being there for her, because frankly I was never good enough and I'm still the same person. Any tips on how to navigate this?

KingDavos if experience has taught me anything it is that it would be a terrible idea. What are you hoping to get from your M in terms of support? And good luck codependencycoyote :)

I have been lurking for a while and dipping into this thread. Finally I feel I have to post about my brother. Db and I had a narc mother and a largely absent father (working abroad). We both suffered but db took the brunt and now has severe anxiety.

I had terribly abusive relationships in my twenties as I had no idea how healthy relationships should work. Life then was a serious of dramas, reminiscent of my childhood. Very fortunately I met dh when I was 30, he has helped me to recover from my childhood and together we have built a loving family with our children and grandchildren.

I have always felt responsible for db as he is quite a lot younger than me and our parents both died when he was young. However our relationship has been fraught because he is liable to lose his temper very dramatically if things don't go his way(perhaps about once every year or so). Usually I decide our relationship is too important to risk and it all blows over after a few days and we get back to normal.

However, the latest episode last week was more dramatic and unexpected than usual. I thought we were having a normal discussion about a non controversial family matter and he exploded in an enormous temper tantrum. I left the room, because I find the drama is too much to cope with and he was left with dh. Db then made some really cruel remarks to dh about our daughter and our relationship with her.

The next day db phoned to apologise, but proceeded to gaslight me, saying his loss of temper was my fault and moving onto the topic of my relationship with one of our grandchildren, saying he is really sorry for the dgc (an adult) because I treat him so badly. For background dgc lives with us at the moment, though he could go home if he wanted to.

I feel unable to forgive db this time, he has hurt dh very badly and cruelly and I feel that my loyalties lie with dh. It is all very reminiscent of childhood, with db criticising me the way our mother used to, and hitting me metaphorically in a very painful area. My family is very important to me and I am really badly hurt by his comments.

Db is married, but his wife also had a difficult childhood. They have no children of their own and very few friends because they are quite hard to get along with. Usually, we meet up several times a week and I know he values the support he receives . Now I don't really know how to proceed. I am quite determined not to engage because I will not lay myself open to emotional abuse, I had enough of that when I was younger and I will not go there again. However, I cannot deny my natural feelings of love for him. What to do?

Hi King Davos

re your comment regarding your mother:-

"Would I be wrong to look to her for support in what is going to be a very difficult time (2 young dc)? She would be there with bells on as she loves a bit of drama and I’m tempted to cry on her shoulder as I don’t have anyone else to turn to (well I do have friends but don’t want to burden them). Would it be a terrible idea?"

As ideas go that is a terrible, terrible idea. Do not go there. It is not possible anyway to have a relationship with a narcissist and she will just cause you a whole new world of emotional anguish and pain. She will indeed just make this all about her and will probably side with your husband too..

Narcissists as well do not do all that well in counselling or therapy and it is likely that she has managed to manipulate the counsellor. I would further lower all contact with your mother now to a point of zero. Keep her well away from yorr children also, she will simply use them as narcissistic supply.

If you want impartial outside support contact Womens Aid and the Rights of Women organisations. Do use friends too, do not be afraid to go to one or two of them to talk. The decent kind ones won't mind. Write here on MN too on this thread or even another one, do NOT speak to your mother about this under any circumstances.

@Dressingdown1 I have a similarly difficult relationship with my DB. He has serious MH issues, as a result of the abusive childhood that he went through, along with DSis and me. For years I felt duty bound to look out for him, my DM made a big thing about how I should be there for him.

But I can no longer do it and I'm virtually NC with him now, as is DSis. We both have young DC and he used to get aggressive with them because he can't cope with children. It becomes like having an extra child, despite him being 50 years old now.

Sometimes you really do have to protect yourself and that means making difficult decisions like the one you're facing. At the end of the day, your DB isn't your responsibility. I've made my peace with my decision and I'm much happier.

Dressingdown

What are your boundaries like with regards to your brother; perhaps you should reassess these again.

Are you certain he values the support he receives from you?. You may be wrong and it may be that he does not want your help and support at all.

Would you tolerate this from a friend, no you would not. Your brother is no different. You still love your brother but you do not have to like him and he needs to see from you there are indeed consequences for his actions. And he being your brother does not give him a hall pass to abuse you as his sister even given anxiety issues. It is not your fault he is like this and you did not make him that way.

Your brother has grown into both parents he himself likely despised as a child, after all we learn about relationships first and foremost from them and he learnt abuse from them. Like practically all abusive people as well he has never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for his actions. You have a right to live free of abuse from anyone. If you are determined not to engage him further then you do not have to.

Did you feel like a sort of surrogate mother to your brother as a child because neither parents here were really up to the task?.

I would read up on codependency and see how much if any of this fits in with your relationship with your brother. As Lizzie rightly points out as well, he is not your responsibility full stop. You are only responsible for your own self.

dalecooper

I would stay well away from your mother and not involve myself in any aspect of her care going forward. You are really under no obligation here to do this. Toxic people as well can and do use ill health to further control and manipulate their chosen targets. Who informed you that your mother was given a cancer diagnosis?. How reliable is this information and what do they expect you to do with it?

Thanks for your feedback. I did feel responsible for him when he was little as our parents used to have enormous rows whenever my father came back from his job abroad. They used to ignore both me and db, even though we were both visibly distressed, so I had to look after db.Also from when I was 11, I looked after him during school holidays while my mother was at work.

I think he does want me in his life, he actually said that during his rant about my failings. However we may well be co-dependent, I will read up on it.

I think what hurts most is finding out that all the time we were welcoming db into our home and family, he was secretly finding fault with our lives, and our most fundamental relationships

Attila

The internet ate my response, hopefully it doesn't post twice! DM told me and I do trust it's correct information. My sister is completely NC and I do hear from third parties who only have DM's version of events how "terrible" my sister is. I suppose I don't want to be the "terrible" one for ignoring DM in her hour of need.

It has scared me how little I care about this news, my concern is really that everything is have constructed to feel safe and ok is being challenged. I can't decide if this makes me a narc too.

@dalecooperscoffeecup

No, this definitely doesn't make you a narc, otherwise you wouldn't be worrying about it the way you are, and feeling like you should be supporting your DM. The reality is that you have been conditioned by your DM's 'flying monkeys' to be the 'good sister' as opposed to the 'terrible' one.

Thank you Lizzie, I needed to hear that. Luckily my life is largely free of flying monkeys but people slip through.

Thanks Attila, I needed someone to talk sense into me. It’s just hard when you’re in a vulnerable position and in desperate need of support. Normal people would be able to rely on their parents to get them through a difficult time and I know I need to accept that sadly that doesn’t apply for me