"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Re my Mam
Did/do you have any regrets after your mother’s death?
I didn't at the time because I felt that once she became ill staying in her life was the right thing to do.
I regretted not getting answers and not clearing the air while she was ill, but she would never admit she did anything wrong and always said she did her best. It felt like the wrong time to push the point. Since she died I always felt I had everything sorted in my head but suddenly everything has gone awry. The cat is out of the box.

I wish I'd told her how I felt years before because I could have stopped her mental and emotional abuse. But I'm only now realising how bad the abuse was.

Re my Dad
Would I regret it if I didn't go?
I honestly don't know. I can see the benefit of telling him how I feel and then walking away. But if he was the same as my mother would I regret going? I'd know where I stood which would one thing but the only benefit I can think of. On the other hand he could apologise and admit there was more he could/should have done (but I feel like yeah, that'll happen)

Am I going only because I feel I ought to?
I don't know. I'd like to think not but it has crossed my mind. I'm definitely leaning to a no here.

To be clear I could never have stopped the physical abuse because that happened when I was young/teenager, but I feel I should have stopped the mental and emotional abuse. So I kind of blame myself for accepting how I was being treated.

AnotherEmma,
Thank you that is my 'gut feel' I'm not going to throw away a friendship but just give it some time and space.

It is such a difficult path to navigate for both of you. Knowledge is power in my book though. There's some great you tube clips on narcissists and other personality disorders and watching them won't make anything better but they do give you some insight into what the inlaws are doing and why - and that strips the emotion out of it a little bit. Ie it's not you, it's them and there is nothing you could or can do differently.

There's no getting away from it being a horrible, no-win situation though so spend as much time as you can doing things you love and with people who love you.

I have lurked on this thread for a while now, empathising with you lovely lot and admiring you all for your strength in dealing with toxic family.
I'm not sure I know where to start with my sisters though.
I've had counselling, but think I need more help.
Recently, I was publicly flamed for untrue allegations and my sisters were the instigators and contributors, making up more lies and inciting violence towards me. I have done nothing to deserve such unmitigated hatred except be me. I've been n/c for 3 years , 3 lovely years where I have done nothing at all. I'm polite and civil if I see them, just ignore.
I'm really really struggling with finding my confidence again and learning to live with this new attack.
Sorry its not very clear why I'm posting, I just am struggling to find the words. They're now hating my mum for supporting me and I had to have words with my dad too.
I just don;t understand the toxicity, I don;t get why anyone would want to tear someone down like that. especially their own blood.

Hi everyone I've lurked on this thread for ages but today, well what a bad day - ive told my M I no longer want any contact with her. Except I work for her (and have done for a long time)(sigh), it's going to be very difficult. She is incredibly controlling e.g. I am the mentally fragile one and she is here to help whenever I need. She is an abuser but will argue that she's not. I've just got so little self esteem left. I don't know what I'm trying to say here so I'll post again later.
P.s thank you to everyone who posts on this thread - it's been huge support - I don't really have anyone to talk to about this💐

Whothefuckdoesthis - I'm sorry you're going through this, is your mum able to talk your sisters down? Well done for being yourself, never stop!

Wish247, both hate my mum already-to be fair, they hate a lot of people.
Thanks, took years to be me, I'm not changing or diminishing myself (again) to make someone else feel better about their life.
Sorry to hear about your mum Wish, do you have any other RL support? someone to help you see the light for the trees?

@dazedandconfused18 and @AnotherEmma - thank you for responding. My best friend really is awesome. I'm so sorry that you had one who was so very disloyal.

So I am kicking myself. I allowed it all to happen again. My DF asked me to meet him. Which I did. He spoke to me and said I needed to sort things out with my siblings and my mother. DM had in fact written a genuinely pull at my heartstrings (reel me in again) letter - "why do you hate me so? Why all this venom?"

So I fell for it. I called her we talked things through she wept I responded. 1.5 hours. I thought it was gonna be ok.

Then it was the weekend and my eldest posted a WhatsApp on the family chat which I was persuaded to rejoin: "I don't know how to communicate with you anymore but when you're ready let's talk."

I left it for a couple of days and got a pointed text on same chat from DM saying "so? Are you going to communicate with us?" It's almost like the Royal We.

I said i had been away for the weekend with my BF and other lovely friends. No response.

I then wrote something family logistic oriented. DM wrote "thanks x" (so very very childish).

DM then phoned last night and asked to speak to my children. DSis did exactly the same this afternoon, my father did exactly the same this evening. Didn't speak to me. Only to my children.

It is SOOOOOO flipping predictable, all of it. You couldn't make it up. If I was feeling even the smallest bit vulnerable I would break.

Scoobycan - hope you don't beat yourself for being drawn in again, we're all human and we all want to believe there can be a happy ending (despite all the evidence to the contrary!). It is a minefield, I think the only thing, for me at least, is that each time hurts a bit less as I'm almost waiting for it. You can't win I'm afraid.... well you can but only by sticking two fingers up and living the life you want with those that do value you for you. Best of luck!

Thanks @dazedandconfused18 - it's hard to differentiate between the real, genuine sentiments, and the sentiments laced with undertones of poking, a little bit of malice and a dash of spite.

This thread is so very helpful in making the decision to fend for myself for a while.

Scooby

"Come closer so I can hurt you again" said your family, that was the subtext here. Do not beat yourself up though for being drawn in again; this is all a steep learning curve.

Many people are thus taken in, do not blame yourself but be mindful of what they are still capable of here. Hoovering is a very effective technique such dysfunctional families use on their chosen target. It is predictable too because the end result is very much the same.

Your family members are absolutely not worthy of you. Do not let these people speak to your children either; they do not need to be on the receiving end either of such emotional manipulations. Do block their ways of communicating with you.

@AttilaTheMeerkat - thank you. Might I ask what "hoovering" is in this context?

It is intriguing - their responses. They can't seem to work out why I haven't toed the line yet. This is what gives me strength actually - I'm not behaving in the way that I have always behaved, and therefore I'm unstable. When in actual fact I'm just not willing to be treated like a child anymore, I'm standing up to them and they don't quite know how to deal with it. Who can they all pick on instead?!

Thanks all.

I need a bit of advice and some bolstering up.

Long story short, my F is emotionally abusive. DM is both his main victim and his enabler. I'm the scapegoat, Sibling1 stays very quiet, Sibling2 is golden child.

Some weeks ago I realised F wasn't going to change. We'd been having a family meeting and he treated me badly, in a small way, but he enjoyed it.

After a week or so of silence from them, we ended up exchanging some emails. And the upshot is that I went NC with F.

The problem is dm. Both on the phone and in a couple of emails, she's tried various attempts to coerce me into reconciling with F. This has included attacks on my character, religious coercion, financial coercion, saying other family members will be made ill over this, implying F is a vulnerable adult who I should be safeguarding, and that if I go NC with him, I have to go NC with her...

I've avoided addressing any of the manipulation throughout. Just said what I am going to do. And I'm trying to gather up the courage to reply very simply saying I respect her decision.

But while it was easy to go NC with F. It's really hard to go NC with dm, and I know my reply will hurt her. So I keep putting it off.

And then there's the question of how to manage their relationship with the dc. Dm is great with them and F tends to behave in front of them, except for tall stories/exaggeration. And the dc know to check anything he claims to be true.

The dc know that F had treated me badly so I've decided not to be around him anymore. They also know that dm has said that of I choose not to be around F, then that applies for her too.

But they'd still like to see dm ( their GM). And I'm not sure what to do about that.

Wyebread

Your reply won't hurt her and they have not thought twice about hurting you over the years.

And also you do not have to respond either. You have a choice here.

Such disordered of thinking people like your parents want a response; that to them is the reward. Giving them a response keeps you hooked in and a response is what these people want. Your mother here is purely and simply acting as a "flying monkey" no doubt sent in by her H to do his bidding. Ignore any and all such attempts to draw you back in; they simply want to keep you in your assigned scapegoat role. Withdraw from them altogether and block your mother from contacting you. People like your dad as well need a willing enabler to help them and in this case its your mother. She is not acting in your best interests at all here; only hers and she is not interested either in hearing your side of things.

If you read her e-mails and whatnot you are also subjecting yourself to her emotional manipulations and attempted hoovering behaviours.
They were not good parents to you when growing up but many adult children of narcissists seem to have this abiding and forelorn hope that they will behave somehow better with the children this time around. It does not happen and I would keep your children well away from them going forward.

Give your children age appropriate truth re your parents. Not all people are nice and safe to be around and they are relying on your good judgment here.

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your children that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your parent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the grandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

scooby

You may also find these articles helpful to you:-

narcissistschild.blogspot.com/2013/08/getting-sucked-back-inall-about.html

abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2012/03/when-toxic-people-start-hoovering.html

That's very interesting, @AttilaTheMeerkat thank you. My DM is ignoring me at the moment, apart from inane comments on Facebook. But then she complains to my DSis that she never hears from me. This isn't actually true, I email her occasionally with news, I just don't ring her. It's much easier to maintain boundaries that way.

My DSis doesn't play the flying monkey, thankfully. She just refuses to engage and asks, 'Why don't you call her yourself?' We both encourage each other with remaining low contact because of the past.

The problem is, any time I weaken and allow my DM back in, she just takes over and likes everything her own way, including issuing consequences to my DDs, which she has no business doing. I've started to appreciate special events without her around, as I feel so much more relaxed.

It's difficult, because she isn't actually unkind, like some of the narcissistic mothers on here, she's just controlling and always has to be in charge. She's still manipulative; whenever I try to tackle her about the past, she tells me that she's about to cry and please don't spoil this special day.

Lizzie

Do not allow her back in, she will probably try and hoover you back in at some point.

Your mother was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and now she is repeating that same dysfunctional dynamic with your children. They also do not need her emotional manipulations either.

You state she is not unkind but kind people do not and have no need to act like your mother has done here. Her actions are about power and control, she wants absolute here over you. She being controlling along with having a liking to be in charge (can relate to this, feel like giving my MIL an I'm in charge badge and she is not kind either) is bad news all round and is not indicative either of a kind person. You were very much trained by her from a young age to serve her at your overall expense.

Lizzie

Tears can be manipulative as well. She does not want to know.
Like all toxic people as well they never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

I was wondering where your dad is in all this; is he still in your life?

Hmm. I'm still unsure.

But the not apologising thing hits home. Neither of them apologise.

My F has apologised to me twice in my life that I can recall (and only because I apologised first). I'm not sure whether dm has or not. Yet I've lost count of the times I've apologised to my dc, and vice versa.

Apologising is part of taking responsibility for your own choices. But F and DM tend to blame others when things go wrong. Actually they do it to an almost paranoid extent. Often assuming the worst about people, rather then mundane explanations for when people accidentally upset them.

Hmm.

over the last 9 months the excluding behaviour by my 2 younger sisters has ramped up.
It started with left out of birthday cele.brations (with pics on FB of sister 2 celebrating with cousins etc at a large party)
WHen I invited them to my daughters party...they weren't around. Only to discover they indeed were. DS1 turned up 3 hours late to my DD birthday saying she'd got the wrong time, though my text had been crystal clear.
Leaving gifts for DD2 at DM house, which is a 4 minute drive away. Inviting DD2 to party....only to forget to mention it was the day before and so on and so forth.
Not acknolwedging gifts we have sent for DNs. Twice.

My eldest DD is caught up in this shit, manipulated by them all to keep things secret but she is old enough to know what is happening. My DM tells me things second hand that my DD1 (25) has told her.
Pics on FB of DS1 taking DN/s out on trips that never seem to include my DD2.
They never ring DD2 or contact us for a catch up, if only for the cousins.
My DB1 spoke about 2 sentences to me 18 months ago at a family event so that ship sailed many years ago.

So its my birthday this weekend and I know it won't be acknowledged and I am kind of prepared for that but not. I know I will have to suck it up and accept that they are ....concious uncoupling me?
There appears to be no explanation as to what this is all about. There was no falling out or row or anything. My DS2 has always had some unexplained problem with me, competitive etc. She gets upset if I lose weight...she sulked for days when I lost a few pounds when we were in our 20s before children. She cut contact when I was pregnant with DD2. said she prefereed to spend time with her barren friends (her words). Only to bounce back when she fell pregnant 3 months later.
In a way its a relief as I have become more and more uncomfortable around them. Everything I say seems to be the wrong thing. I am even worried typing this that I sound paranoid. Any time I have asked if I have done something, offended someone, they say I am paranoid
I am bipolar and I do see things in my worst moments, but I don't think I am being paranoid or imaging things.
At the end of it, I have more questions than answers as to what has happened but thats the way this goes isn't it...or is it actually me?

I can't be angry anymore, I honestly can't because it is making me ill help me move along

AttilaTheMeerkat

My F died in 1998. He inflicted years of SA on my DSis and me, both him and others; we're still living with the consequences of this now. My DM was his enabler; she's always said she didn't know anything about it, and it's true that she always worked very long hours, so it's possible she didn't. She suffered EA at his hands, and he was paranoid about her cheating on him (the irony ).

He had Parkinson's Disease, and my DM blamed a lot of it on her medication. Now I understand that he was a narcissist who happened to have Parkinson's.

My DB is completely messed up as a result of being abused and being encouraged to participate as well.

Lolaflores your DS2 is jealous of you. Plain & simple. A bit taboo, no one ever admits to pure jealousy in a family. It, and her behaviour, reflect very badly on her, NOT YOU. I would back away quietly & rapidly. Grey rock time. Sorry 💐

Wrybread I just wanted to say my situation is very similar and you have my sympathies. It is very difficult.
Amongst many emotions I am angry at my M but also worried about her. I have come to realise that actually the best solution is for her to carry on. (She would never leave) but if she did wake up one day & realise my F is an utter shit who has successfully separated her from both her children at various times & half her grandchildren she would be devastated... and he would unleash the most unholy shitstorm.
So I accept he's a massive narcissist & she is his enabler (after 50 yrs somewhat narcissistic herself, certainly accepts his reality unquestioningly and inadvertently inflicts hurt on others in the process).
Currently vvLC, shutting down any further discussion/hoovering etc, and happy. 💐

Interesting thread this

I have been reading / watching videos on psychology recently

I think I have come to think that my dad could be very guy-next-door charming, but was possibly/probably narcissistic in his behaviours - I cut him out a few years ago. Looking back he steadily eroded my confidence in my decision-making, perceptions, even small things for example, and could turn really nasty in a very icy/angry way that I found very hostile and threatening. So many things. When I described his behaviour to my DM (they divorced when I was small) she said my description was what she had experienced from him.

DM on the other hand, is hot and cold, push and pull, everything rigid yet unpredictable. I think some of the borderline, or codependent descriptions fit her. She cannot manage her emotions, her smallest emotion and whim has to take centre stage and she will compete even against children for attention. She is very childish. Can be sweet and generous but the next minute seems selfish and like she's trying to grab back perceived power for some inexplicable reason. She talks at people more than with them. Has very little social awareness.

They have been in other relationships, and out, and in again. So much of my thought life seems tied up in all their decisions and messes rather than my own. I've steered clear of relationships, I'm not even sure I know how to 'do' relationships.

Yes. Hostile & threatening. Absolutely.
I feel very bad/sad about the way things have turned out but the truth is that ultimately I could not help but have an emotional reaction to their behaviour.