"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Attila even, sorry about that - not sure how I managed to spell that so wrong

Itsear my DH felt like that about his parents as well. Some people are just like that though, they may talk a lot about the importance of family but they're more interested in the appearance of a loving family, if anything.

Hopeintheair73
You only see their true colours when you instate a boundary

Absolutely. Accommodating their wishes comes so naturally to us that we hardly notice the shapes we contort ourselves into to keep them happy... until we do once notice, and it's then that you realise how easily the mask actually slips. I hope you're OK, that sounds really scary.

Scooby you're awesome! Good on you! Maybe you will come back down to earth but now that you've seen the dysfunctional family dynamic for what it is, they won't be able to mess with your head any more.

Helipad, Pete Walker's other book, The Tao of Fully Feeling has a lot of stuff about feeling your emotions fully and also I think about forgiveness and what that does and doesn't mean. I don't know you but I am also a freeze type and knowing how that is and how things likely were for you growing up I would say your anger is probably a very good thing. Let it flow through you. Let yourself experience it, like Sagemustard and Sparebedroom said, name it, describe to yourself what it feels like. You might like Richard Grannon's , he's good for this sort of thing.

dazed that sounds really positive. I think it's good that we're getting some more discussion on the thread of what to do if you can't/won't go NC because different solutions are going to work for people in different situations, and I think where there's no small children/dependency involved it is possible to have a highly boundaried relationship of sorts with these people, enough to be able to stay in touch with family and so on. Although it's bloody exhausting.

Kickedtheball that sounds really hard. I bet you're right that contact will dwindle - I can imagine that your DF is either getting some serious grief off of her right now for still seeing you and failing to facilitate a meeting between you, or he will be once your mother realises that you're not going to see her. If your dad's anything like mine was, it's anything for an easy life, so he will give it up eventually. It can be harder to take when you realise that even the "nice" parent is willing to put your kids second, but the thing is they've all been living in these dysfunctional patterns since before you were born, it would take a monumental effort for any of them to break free. We broke free, at least that, and life for our kids will be different.

Thank you for replying SpareBedroom, SageMustard and toomuch

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I was travelling all day yesterday as I had been visiting my home country for a long weekend. I had a lovely trip and only met people I wanted to meet, the nice family members. But the visit still trigged me badly and I had to write here.

Peter Walker's book has been a real eye opener. I had a bad flash back whilst in my home country but it helped when I realised what it was. Hopefully this is the way forward now. Thank you for the other Pete Walker book recommendation toomuch, I will seek it out.

I am just so angry at them (my DM and SF). That I now have to deal with all this shit because of them. In the Pete Walker's CPTSD book, there was a chapter about the freeze type and how this is the type that was emotionally negledted/abused the most . It makes me so desperately sad about the little girl I once was.

I clearly remember and incident when being little, no more than about 5 or 6 years old. I was playing and running outside with a friend, fell over and hurt my knee. I went to my mum in tears and the some of the skin had come off and there was little bit blood. I still remember her snarling and the look of disgust and telling me "next time run even faster so you will get hurt even more" (sorry bit lost in translation but you'll get the gist). I remember my sobbing and feeling bereft that there was no cuddles and making it all ok. I could never be like that to my children.

Hopeintheair73 It can be awful when their mask slips off.

A good ten years ago I went to my cousin's wedding with other family members, including my DM. It was all going well, until later in the evening my mother started to insist that I must go and join her on the dance floor. I kept saying, all very politely that I just wanted to sit for while and I'll come to dance a bit later on. She stopped, sat down opposite of me, looked me straight in the eye and said (in our language) fuck of, you are such a fucking asshole and then walked off. This deeply shocked me as she was so venomous in her delivery and I remember crying my eyes out to my fiancé (now DH) later that night.

toomuch I read your comments about your PIL's visit. I'm not in a place to help but I do remember keeping the conversation going when visiting home and jollying everyone to keep it going and hoping badly that no-one gets angry. It was awful and soul destroying. And I used to be exhausted when I return to my home here in the UK. At least I'm free of that now.

Helipad

Its not you, its your mother.

So sorry to read of that incident on the dance floor, that also recalled a memory of me crying to my fiancé as well about something my mother said (it was said to my dad in relation to me about her fear of me getting divorced, this being said mere days before my wedding to which they did not come because we had decided to go abroad to marry). Like practically all abusers they cannot keep up the nice act for any real length of time and so the mask slips. Their nice/nasty cycle towards you is a continuous one.

We would not hopefully tolerate this from friends, such behaviour should never be tolerated from family members.

BTW we are not all that far off now from celebrating our silver wedding anniversary!.

toomuchtooold

I also think that contact between your dad and you will also dwindle going forward for the reasons that Ohlookhekickedtheball suggested. As her enabler he has much to lose and he is likely to be far more afraid of her than he ever would be of you.

Hi OhLookHeKickedTheBall,

And please do not worry about the misspelling of Attila, its really of no consequence.

Helipad thanks for the kind thoughts! Usually at this point (they've gone now) I'd be jumping for joy but I'm just so bloody sick of it. Why can't we just have some normal family who want to come and meet the kids and have a few glasses of wine and a laugh? It is soul destroying. Although I must say though I don't do a hell of a lot of jollying along, these days

About the CPTSD and the freeze type - it is sad, and I think it will do you (and that little girl) good to acknowledge how sad it is. If you can mourn your childhood, you can grow. And acknowledge too how well you've done in your life despite everything - I don't know much of your circumstances but I do know you're married and live in a country which is not your native one, both of which require the ability to relate to other people. So you've learned it yourself. You have strength.

Name changed for this as I don't want anyone to recognise me.

My DM was a total narcissist, to such an extent that my counsellor advised I google sociopath and their tendancies.
We were beaten as kids and my mother played mind games right up to her death 10 years ago.

My divorced when I was circa 12 and we moved to a different country where I still live. Prior to that he had worked overseas and came home (he says) every 6 weeks or so. My sister and brother moved back within a couple of years of moving here. I'm not sure when they got back in contact with my father or if he contacted them first. When I was about 19 I think he contacted me but I honestly can't remember. He definitely contacted me when I was about 28 and arranged to meet me on Mother's Day in our capital city (that caused major problems with my mother).

Since then. 25 years ago he's visited here once and I've visited him with my two oldest once. He would ring every couple of weeks and I'd occasionally ring him. He was always telling me he loved me but in reality he didn't know me at all.

I realised over the last year or so I've realised I don't want him in my life. He knew what we were going through physically and never took us out of the situation.

And so we come to now. My brother text me yesterday to say my Dad's been admitted to hospital and he'll keep me informed when step mother updates him. I then find out that stepmother contacted both him and my sister to let them know. No idea why my brother is the one informing me.

I'm seeing the counsellor because I've mentally fallen apart over the last few months and they think it's down to my childhood. I don't even now why I'm upset now about not being informed but I am. I feel like a second class member of the family yet again because I wasn't informed even though I was the one thinking of cutting contact.

My thoughts are just making no sense. Has anyone any insight?

Sorry, my parent's divorced when I was 12 and my father worked overseas.

We, that is my mother, her fancy man, my brother, sister and I moved to the new country. My father always lived in home country when he wasn' working overseas.

@toomuchtooold - thank you. I really appreciate this boost given what has now happened. I will try to summarise below but I'm honestly just aghast at how this is playing out as it really is textbook narcissistic behaviour.

@SageMustard - thank you for also responding - your comment about clarifying statements was absolutely vital to me as you will see below....

Sister who hasn't spoken to me for months crawled out of the woodwork and on Sunday night and texted to say "there is so much to say I don't know where to start you need to meet me ASAP". I responded a couple of hours later and said could she clarify what we needed to discuss and I would think about it. She responded that she couldn't believe I had to ask: "what you've done and the implications it has on ME".

So I told her exactly why I wouldn't be meeting with her, and we had a fairly direct, open, quite nasty text exchange. She even said my 6 y o was "savage". I then told her about mum threatening to hit me this summer. She didn't respond.

Meanwhile I get an email from my best friend. "Dear Scooby, not sure why but your sister who hasn't spoken to you for months (other than to tell you your 6 yo is a spiteful little shit) has just got in touch to tell me she and the rest of your family are really concerned about the state of your wellbeing."

Having recently been most enlightened by a fellow MNetter discussing NPD I immediately thought Flying Monkey? Lieutenant? I was horrified.

My bf wrote back the most eloquent and polite "f*ck off she's fine and would be better if you'd all stop being such arseholes" email I have ever seen.

My sister responded with "I am so pleased you think she's fine. We've all seen an entirely different person to the one you have."

Bf has seen the whole situation pan out over these past months / years. Bf disagrees.

Fortunately I am in such a great place at the moment - I'm plate spinning, sure, but I no longer feel invalid as a human. Getting rid of my FA / EA ex husband put a stop to that.

I've copied and slightly altered what I read recently on another post: What does it take to push someone around who is in recovery from having been quite clearly broken. I am not sure I will ever understand this mentality.

I absolutely hands down don't know where to go from here apart from NC with them all at a most important juncture of my life. The way they are behaving is shameful.

Thanks for reading.

@Hopeintheair73 @toomuchtooold

You only see their true colours when you instate a boundary

Absolutely. Accommodating their wishes comes so naturally to us that we hardly notice the shapes we contort ourselves into to keep them happy... until we do once notice, and it's then that you realise how easily the mask actually slips....

And this is just what I've encountered. I've put a boundary in place and suddenly because I am no longer marching to their tune, I am the one with the problem.

These threads are incredibly enlightening. Thank you.

Hi everyone

I have posted briefly before and feel rude just butting in to talk about myself again! So I’ve had a quick read of today’s posts and just wanted to say...
Helipad Your mother sounds very nasty indeed
scooby Your friend sounds awesome! A similar thing happened to DH recently in that his parents contacted his best friends to express their “concerns”. Sadly the friends didn’t know the whole backstory and were far too polite to say fuck off but one friend did say that he disagreed and tried to reason with them (to no avail of course)

Anyway I’m posting to request advice from the wise people here. I’d rather not share my whole story on this thread so I’ve started one in 90 days (so it disappears after a while) and would appreciate it if any of you has the time and inclination to read and post on it:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/ninety_days_only/3369354-Big-fallout-with-nightmare-in-laws-Try-to-salvage-things-or-walk-away

Many thanks and to you all

whyamisoconfused. I'm no expert here but looking at the site many of us are in our 30's, 40's, 50's and more and still coping with the fallout of what happened in our childhood. I've tried (really for the first time) to address it this year and it is both enlightening but exhausting as you let yourself fully understand what went on, I've felt winded sometimes.
It sounds like you've also been thinking about the relationship with your father recently which has probably stirred up a whole hornets nest of feelings for. Regardless of what your intentions were, it is still extremely hurtful to feel excluded or second class and maybe given what he did and what you have been through you feel understandably that you should have the chance to cut contact, not be the one being excluded, possibly?
I'm not sure I have any good advice except to say it is an exhausting mindfxxk to deal with and it is no wonder your thoughts are all over the place. I hope counselling can help you find some peace.

scooby, well done to you and your BF! The thread is very enlightening isn't it, I've had my fair share of flying monkeys recently too. Sadly my BF didn't handle it so well, she didn't join in the dazed bashing but she didn't tell me, or defend me and clearly was sitting on the fence and possibly leaning over the wrong way :-( It was more hurtful than my family member's words (as that doesn't really surprise me.) Anyway knowledge is power and it is so helpful to understand the dynamics at play. Good luck!

I'm probably way behind in my knowledge but just watched one of the Richard Grannon clips on '20 sign of a covert narcissist'.

Oh bloody hell my DN is 19/20.

I have always thought her to be narcisstic in terms of being 'all about me', entitled, manipulative, biggest victim in the room etc but didn't square it with what I thought of a narcissist (as I know know is an overt one) ie outwardly grandiose, bullet proof, superior, never show weakness etc as she is emotional, teary, vulnerable, always the victim, sometimes crashing lows, anxious, can't take any criticism.

It was frightening to read, but also very sad as it is based in a deep rooted sense of shame. Made me feel sorry for her, not sorry enough to let myself in for more abuse though.

Does anyone else have to deal with a covert narc, if so any advice?

@dazedandconfused18 thank you. That's it exactly. It should be my choice to go NC, it's so hurtful to feel second class yet again.

Whyamisoconfused sorry to hear of the pain that you are processing. The way I read it you've seen your Dad 4 times in about 40 years? He didn't protect you back then and has not made good since.
The lack of contact over him being in hospital is just further proof of his poor treatment of you. Try not to internalise it, it reflects very badly on him not you.
I would say you owe him nothing. Do what you need to do for you.

Thanks fc301, that sounds about right. I just can't decide if I want to go see him to get closure and draw a line in the sand, or if I'd be better off doing nothing at all. It'll be a case of making the wrong decision and later it'll be clear with hindsight.

Maybe the two questions are :
Would I regret it if I didn't go?
Am I going only because I feel I ought to?

Dazed
Sorry your friend didn’t tell you about the call, I wonder if she felt awkward and was worried about stirring things up by telling you? DH didn’t find out that his family had called his friends until quite a while later, and he thinks they didn’t want to make things worse.
Are you sure your friend is/was on their side? Have you sorted things out with her since? Hope so.
I think the narcs in DH’s family are covert narcissists but I have no idea how to deal with them I’m afraid! Any resource recommendations would be very welcome.

whyamisoconfused
I’m sorry that your mother was so abusive and your father essentially abandoned you I’m not surprised you’re hurt about not being informed, especially if your siblings were told and you weren’t - it hurts to be treated differently.
Fwiw I don’t think you need to see him to get closure but perhaps you could consider writing him a letter to tell him how you feel? Have you read Toxic Parents? It has advice on that.

whyamisoconfused
Did/do you have any regrets after your mother’s death? (eg visiting her v not visiting her, or telling her certain things v not telling her?)

Thanks AnotherEmma, yes I think that is probably the case with my BF and I can see that the family member put her in a no-win position. The bit I'm struggling with is the things said about me were pretty awful and yet my friend was being a bit of a cheerleader for the family member. Or that's how it came across anyway. I'm finding that hard to reconcile, my gut instinct is to give it space and I don't think I can cope with any more people to second guess!

Your in-laws sound dreadful and that passive/aggresive diss'ing you behind your back is typical covert narc (so I'm learning!). I'm not sure if it's harder when it's your own family that are the issue or DH's. Not that either situation is a picnic of course. I can imagine, whilst you are removed to some extent, it must be heart-breaking when you are portrayed as the problem (and you come across as really compassionate and reasonable) and to watch the upset it causes to your DH. I am sure he could benefit from some counselling (if budget allows) or further reading - this thread maybe? I don't feel qualified to give advice but, in your position, I really would limit the time you give to these people if you are not prepared to go NC. What they said about you is horrific, however they outwardly treat your DC they have not got your little family unit's interest at heart and will no doubt turn on him at some point unless he feeds their need.

It sounds like you are strong together though and that is the most important thing. I feel so lucky to have a supportive DH, DC and friends, not that I discuss it much in RL, but I am so grateful for normal humans! Best wishes to you.

dazed
“The bit I'm struggling with is the things said about me were pretty awful and yet my friend was being a bit of a cheerleader for the family member.”

I’m a firm believer in trusting your instinct, so if yours is telling you to step back from the friend for a while, I’m sure that’s the best thing to do.

Thank you for your kind and supportive words about my situation, especially for saying that I come across as compassionate and reasonable

It is tricky when it’s DH’s family and not mine, I’m doing my best to be supportive and focus on him, but have a lot of feelings of my own too! I feel for DH so much because my family is far from perfect but at least I still have them. Luckily my family are all very supportive of him and our relationship.

I’m glad you have supportive DH, DC and friends - it makes a big difference doesn’t it? That saying “friends are the family we choose for ourselves” is a bit cheesy/cliché but it’s so true!