"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

toomuchtooold
Thank you very much. You make an interesting point about them noticing and exploiting vulnerability. Ironically, the worse their behaviour, the more it brings DH and I closer together to support each other (thankfully!), so if they intended to drive a wedge between us, it’s had the opposite effect.
I think I’m an easy scapegoat, as I disrupt the established family dynamics, and SIL has clearly been very jealous of me from the start. Weirdly though, discovering the full extent of their “allegations” against me has been unexpectedly liberating. The crazier the get, the more confident I feel that it’s them, not me, and the less guilty I feel about walking away. Basically, fuck them!

Anyway. I was wondering if anyone could please recommend some good reading about the victim complex / victim mentality? I think it’s a big issue in DH’s family, along with narcissistic traits.

Ugh! Mother's Day. I know exactly what you me . I once managed to find a card that just said 'happy happy mother's day' I just couldnt bring mysf to send one gushing 'what a wonderful mother's and all that shit.

Thank god for NC. No more trying to please someone who always expects more despite giving absolutely nothing in return!

Been lurking here for a while. But encouraged to join by my other thread.

Do you think because my mum has narcissist tendencies I attract friends like that too. At the moment, since I've realised my dm is like this...I've noticed I've seemed to have surrounded myself with fairly f*cked up friends too. Am I a magnet as at least one of them has told me i am 'argumentative and falling out with everyone' I feel gaslighted/losing my mind!!!

TT - I would like to give a fluffy response, but I find that in reality I'm rather soft, this is a factor when it comes to meeting none desirable persons. It's almost like they know we are unlikely to argue against whatever they're focussing on.

I say this as the biggest mistake I made, was generally being chatty, I fell into a Narcs path so to speak. They have spent however long thinking oh I'm the puppet master. If I dared get bold over the phone or via text, they would be like would they be the same to my face. If you're trying to be strong generally they'll start pressing buttons, which get you to behave so to speak.

If I'm honest I'm so timid that most people know I wouldn't say anything back. I do think narcs can sniff out those that are liable to be easily manipulated. I can't say how, but relationships / friendships, if you get a feeling of fear, you know as soon as that kicks in to try and get rid. But the narc has their toy so to speak so goodbye isn't often enough to get them to bugger off.

If you need to talk I'm here, Narc Mum Graduate of the year, then like honey to a bee for other narcs.

They can sense the fact you'll do anything for an easy life. I say generally they'll show their colours fairly quick. Then that's kind of the first warning to try and distance yourself. Although the Narc will know that it might enter your head so the charm factor appears. Just don't be fooled by any promises / extravagance.

It's really hard as I agree entirely with the hypothesis. If that makes sense.

Hello everyone, I'm nearly 6 months NC with my dad. My mental health, sleep patterns etc had really started to improve, then about two weeks ago I started regressing into the FOG again, still no desire to make contact (I know he makes me ill) but a lot of guilt, worry and feeling like a bad person.

I feel like mentally I compulsively cycle through all the awful things of my childhood - I can only describe it as I'm cycling through a list in case I have to explain and defend my choice of NC to an invisible person. I say invisible because nobody has questioned me in the six months of NC. That's because there's no one left, they all went NC with him long before i did.

Please tell me this is normal and I'll feel better again?

I am extremely chatty bolshy and assertive but underneath it all a massive insecure people pleaser/obliger. Even my dh was surprised when I did one of those online tests because he thought I was a rebel who didn't care less (we've only been together 15yrs!)
I think maybe I'm so desperate to be liked because of dm/dad I tolerate bad people for too long until it's too late. I'm not discerning enough. Also quite lonely. Since being a mum I've tolerated other not nice mums for too long because I've at times been sahm and been isolated.
I've been reading loads because I'm worried I am a narcissist too. Bloody hope not. I want to be a good mum.

@TravelAndAdventure
I dont have any advice as im going through that same thing. I think its your brain processing everything? Thats what it feels like to me, bit like the grieving process.

@Trumptytrump
That fact that you are worried shows your not a narcissist. They are always the victims and its always everyone else's fault. By doing what your doing you are a good mum

I didn't really know where else to go.

I'm pregnant and my MIL just made a 'joke' about me being 'my father's daughter'.

This was because I said I would like to punch someone in the face (hyperbole, I would never do anything like that). Said person was someone who is on video throwing my cat against a wall for a laugh (!) It really upset me and made me angry to see the video and I was just expressing that.

My father (estranged for 3 and a half years) was a violent, abusive man who beat me senseless when I was only 2 or 3. He was emotionally and physically abusive to all of his kids and none of us speak to him. He has never acknowledged real guilt or had any interest in a relationship with us as adults. We've all given up trying.

As a first time mother to be, MIL's comment really upset me because she knows the situation and my deepest, darkest fear is that I could hurt my children the way my father hurt me. I would NEVER, but as a victim of child abuse my brain has convinced me I'm bad, broken and somehow like my father.

I don't want to lose any more family - my grandfather on the estranged side of the family just died. But I want to scream at my MIL.

Hand hold please.

I have been NC with my narcissistic mother for almost a year now. For the second time. She threatened to poison my 3 year old son against me when he grows up. I received a letter from her this morning. I didn't realise it was from her until I read the first sentence and then I put it back in the envelope and gave it to my husband. Asked him to put it away somewhere for now. I haven't read it. Do you think I should? Or just bin it? I already know that it doesn't matter what she says in it, nothing can change or undo what she's done to me. And nothing would get any better if I got back in touch. Believe me,I have tried. I've been seeing a counsellor once a week for a while now and it's been really helpful to finally have someone believe what has happened to me and tell me I'm not crazy. The gaslighting has finally stopped. What would you do?

EnglishIrishRose Your MIL was out of order and misusing personal information. Reacting with anger or standing up for an animal or person being abused does not make you an abuser.

Thank you @UpstartCrow. You'd think someone would engage their brain before speaking to a pregnant woman with mental health issues who is also grieving.

That's how I felt - like she misused my information and betrayed my trust. A friend was in the room too so all DP could do was say 'that's not funny mum'.

@On3Mor3Try I'm sorry, it's a hard choice to make. Your username says it all for me really: I've always given my father 'one more try', thinking something would be different this time, if only this and that. The truth is very hard to take, that they will never really change and each 'one more try' just takes a piece of your happiness away and leaves you tired and broken again.

I personally wouldn't open it - but the little child in me, always hoping, would want to. There is no 'should' here, do what's best for your wellbeing.

It's taken me a long time to find the confidence to post here.
I want to thank you all for the validation of my anger and upset that you sharing your experiences has given me.
I don't think I've had it as bad as many of you, and I sometimes wonder whether it's all in my head.
However, I simply can't deny how the quotes in the OP ring so true, and perfectly describe the way my mother has always interacted with me. To some extents, my other caregivers too.

My childhood was incredibly unhappy, and it's only since I've distanced myself from my family in recent years (unfortunately I cannot go NC for several compelling reasons. My family really do have me in their clutches and I feel so trapped and suffocated) that I've started to believe I might actually be able to function as a person.

I'm not sure I'm ready to go into much detail yet. Partially because I'm scared of sharing my feelings because of the reactions I've always had when trying to do this, partially because the circumstances are really quite specific and I'm scared my family will see.

They convinced me I was troubled because of things exterior to my upbringing, which in some ways is true.
However, I didn't realise the way they treated me was unacceptable and possibly contributing to my anguish until I was 21.

The penny dropped that year when they all had Christmas dinner without me.
I'd had a particularly tough year, and was feeling incredibly lonely.
Every year, from the age of about 16, I would cook Christmas dinner (4 courses + a cheese board!) for them all. I loved cooking, and to have a big feast to cook was my idea of heaven. I'd spend weeks planning a menu and sourcing ingredients. I loved creating something for my extended family to enjoy.
I didn't realise it at the time, but it also meant I could avoid the dysfunction of everyone in a room together on Christmas morning - it was a good escape.

This particular year was the first year I lived away from the family home (excluding uni). I'd said I was happy to cook dinner as usual, but my mother said she'd rather I didn't.
I asked what time Christmas dinner was, and was told 6pm, so to come at 5 to have drinks first. I double checked this time the day before.
On Christmas Day, which I'd spent alone, I wrapped their carefully chosen presents and spent hours choosing what to wear. I was so eager for company that I arrived at my mother's house for 4.

When I got there, my extended family (siblings, aunts, grandparents, cousins - the lot!) were preparing to leave, having just finished eating Christmas dinner.
My mother looked like a rabbit in headlights - she'd clearly wanted them to be gone before I arrived.
My grandfather turned to me and said it was poor form that I'd not wanted to come, and he was hurt I hadn't wanted to see him.

My mother breezily responded that dinner was at noon and she'd told me this repeatedly.
When I questioned why, when they all had my number, none of them had called or texted me to ask where I was if that was the case, she told me that she was "scared to" because I would have "got abusive and thrown a fit at her for nagging".

For context, she had no basis for this assumption.

I was totally shocked by the rejection, and her flat denial that she'd done anything wrong. She wouldn't even compromise and accept that it was a misunderstanding and that she'd just made a small mistake and handled it badly - one of many get out clauses I've offered her over the years. She finds it impossible to admit any fault, however small.

I was terribly upset, drove straight home via the 24hr garage and spent the night chain smoking (I didn't even smoke!), drinking cheap wine and crying.

At the time I blamed myself; I must have been awful for my family to dislike me. It was only when I got with my husband soon after, and started to talk these things through that I realised how unusual her/their behaviour was.

This hasn't been the worst of what has happened, but I think it's about all I can share at the moment.
It's been very cathartic to get it all out - I think I drive my husband nuts!

I apologise that it's nowhere near as bad as what some of you have experienced. I don't want to minimise what you've been through by comparing with myself. I don't entirely feel I belong here.
I just feel like I need to talk about some of this to people who understand, and this incident that first got me thinking something was wrong seemed a good place to start.

NC4 everyone thinks their own abuse wasn't really abuse or it wasn't that serious or whatever - we even say it in the OP.
The Christmas dinner episode has a lot in it - you being excluded, and then swearing blind that you got the wrong time - gaslighting, except that you weren't taking the bait so good for you. Your family's reaction, your grandparents, showing that you've been the scapegoat of the family for a long time - hard to know whether your grandparents are part of the dysfunction or whether they've simply believed what they've been told about you all these years.

The scapegoat in the family functions as a sort of lightning rod for everyone else's negative emotions. For whatever reason, the parents cannot acknowledge their own negative emotions,. particularly towards their own children. They find one kid to be the scapegoat - usually the one too honest to go along with the falseness - and blame everything on them. We are all perfect here, and we all love each other perfectly. Except that there is this one person, the scapegoat, and they cause all our problems... what's really funny though is that if the scapegoat goes to try and leave, the family (who you'd have thought would be relieved, right, if the scapegoat were really the problem) will try either to stop the person leaving or punish them for leaving. Which I think is what was happening to you that Christmas. How dare you make a good go of your independent life, and show up to your mother that you were never the problem?

Can narcissists ever change, or are they beyond help?

I have recently started standing up to my mother after a lifetime of being compliant, never pulling her up on bad behaviour and never expressing my real opinions/ feelings for fear of saying the ‘wrong’ thing.

This has resulted in a load of abuse about how unbelievably selfish I am, what an awful daughter, etc. As a result, at her suggestion we agreed to go NC for a while, but she has now got in touch saying it’s unbelievable that I haven’t been in touch for weeks, I’m so selfish, etc.

She went mad when I pointed out how ridiculous this was and told me she never wants to see or speak to me again.

However a week later she apologied and said everything is her fault and she is going to make an appointment with the GP to try and get some counselling. She said it is all because she feels so worthless (she had an abusive childhood).

I’m not sure what my next step should be and whether I should believe her or it is all part of another game. I do feel sorry for her due to her unhappy childhood. Any advice would be appreciated as I’ve only just just realised that she is a narcissist

Personally, I think there are 2 kinds of narcissist. the first is the classic narc that would be diagnosed as such. The second is someone who was brought up in such a way that they learned the behaviours of a narc as a defense mechanism.

I think the first group could learn to moderate their behaviour but most wouldn't see any need.
The second could learn to change; but it would take sustained effort, and guidance from a very skilled therapist.

Davos I agree with Crow that some are born (the first type) and some are made (the second type). There is no point trying with the first type as any attempt to change will only be insofar as that change continues to meet their needs (and therefore not yours necessarily). The second type might be able to change but would find it difficult I think without support.

In either case, the key for you is boundaries, boundaries boundaries. Decide what yours are and stick to them regardless of what she says or does - make them the important thing. When you do this, whether she changes or not becomes secondary to respecting yourself, which is the way it should be. (You will probably soon find out how serious she is about trying to change - if she's not, she still won't be able to respect them.)

I think it’s possible my mum is the 2nd type. She does display narcissistic behaviours but some of the descriptions of a narcissist do not ring true. I don’t think she thinks she is superior to people or better than everyone else. I think she is actually really insecure inside, even though she comes across as the life and soul of the party. She isn’t hyper-critical in general until we (me and/ or my sibling) upset her and then she lashes out and says awful, hurtful things.

She constantly lets us down by making promises to see us, but then pulling out at the last minute with feeble excuses. There are a lot of over the top declarations on social media about how much she loves her children and grandchildren, but then she hardly bothers to see us.

She is a hyperchondriac and seems to thrive on deliberately creating drama in her/ our lives. When there is any trauma in our lives she seems to enjoy it (when I was going through personal marriage difficulties even family abroad got to hear about it). She favoured me as the ‘golden child’ and my sister was the scapegoat until I started standing up to her too. Now she doesn’t like either of us.

On the other hand she has on occasion tried to help with the kids, babysitting etc and been there for me when I was really ill / my marriage was on the rocks (though I don’t know if this was just because she liked the drama).

Her own mother was cruel to her and favoured her siblings and she was sexually abused by a family member so she did have a traumatic childhood.

The fact she says she wants to get help is a good sign and if there is a way we could get through this and still have a relationship I’d want to take it. The thought of essentially no longer having a mother makes me sad.

KingDavos, have a google at "covert narcissist". That's what your mother sounds like to me. It's like, they don't have the superiority (although it's still there in some form, it may be something like thinking they are the most hard done by or most misunderstood or most moral or something like that) but they still have the self-centredness and the manipulation and stuff.

I agree with sparebedroom and upstartcrow - there's degrees of narcissism, but it doesn't really matter because you deal with them in the same way, with the clear boundaries. You decide what you will put up with and what not, and you stick to that and be consistent with it. Don't give her a free pass because she's going to therapy, and don't under any circumstances go to therapy with her. Narcissists are often very good at manipulating therapists into believing their distorted view of reality, and that would be a very traumatising experience for you. Let her go to therapy and tell the therapist whatever she likes, keep to your boundaries, and remove yourself from the situation if she acts up.

@toomuchtooold yes, what you are saying rings very true!
It's interesting that you bring up a "family scapegoat". This is something I'd never considered, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

In fact, until I was about 16 my step-brother was very much my mother's "scapegoat". I was always very uncomfortable with how differently and unfairly she treated him, she was downright nasty.
Once he had enough and moved out to live with his other parent, this having very little contact with my mother, the blame seemed to fall onto me.

Regarding the two types of narcissists - I'm not sure which my mother would be. She has a need to be seen as a matyr and a victim, but is unwilling to actually matyr herself, just creating a false impression.

As an example, she is - in my opinion - very cruel to her disabled partner and seems to relish in the control she is able to exert over them. She does very little in the way of actually caring for them - in an emotional or physical sense - yet thrives off the sympathy she gets from being a "carer".
All she ever talks about is how hard it is, and how hard she works. Her partners self esteem is so low, and my mother is just so mean and unloving towards them, making embarrassing "jokes" about them earshot (making fun of incontinence etc).
But I've never once seen her cook a meal for them, bring them a drink, get them up in the morning, help them dress and wash. In fact, me and my husband were remarking last week how in the last 5 years, we couldn't think of a single time they'd even been in the same room - except during family events where she will play the part of the doting carer, waiting on hand and foot for all to see.
I wouldn't judge this - being a carer for your partner must be incredibly hard and I don't know how I'd do it, and there's no shame in employing help to do this - except she has everyone and her partner convinced that she works her fingers to the bone, when she actually does nothing at all to help or care for them.
She quite literally spends longer each week at carer's support groups than she does conmunicating with her partner in anyway.
She's just come back from an expensive (charity funded) week at a carer's respite retreat centre - leaving her partner alone at home as she so often does.

It makes me so angry to see what a terrible impact she's had on the quality of life of a disabled person I care about deeply. She is taking charity resources away from people who truly deserve them, whilst making the person who loves her so much feel like a useless burden to the extent of feeling compelled to look into dignitas. I can't bring this up though, because everyone is fooled by her grand displays of martyrdom.
The only other person who sees it is my stepbrother - who despite living miles away and working very long days in a minimum wage job, still travels to provide more care than she does, whilst she takes the carers allowance and car and other benefits.
Nobody dares to say anything though, as she is the perpetual victim and throws huge, sometime violent, tantrums in the face of criticism - however mild.

NC4 god, that's awful. Regarding your stepbrother, yep, that's the pattern - once he was gone, someone else had to take his place as the scapegoat and that was you. Regarding your mother and her partner: yes IMO that's classic narcissism - wanting to be seen as a good person through caring for her partner but not wanting to do any of the actual work. Your mother is getting narcissistic supply from people outside the house who think she is this amazing carer - this makes it very difficult for your mother's partner to complain, because who would believe them? Other than you and your stepbrother, who've lived with her, and know what she's actually like. Does your mother's partner ever talk about how things are between them? I know how hard it is to get people in this situation to see what's happening, even supposing there was a practical solution to getting them away. A common tactic with people like this is to be neglectful/downright awful like 90% of the time and then once when the person pleases them, to be very loving and caring for a short while, so the person being "cared" for goes out of their nut trying to understand what it is they need to do to get the nice carer back 100% of the time. But it's not possible, they're not reacting to anything the cared for person is doing, they're either reacting to something they've projected onto the other person or they're just looking for an excuse for a fight.

The thing about narcissists is that their false view of themselves as this perfect, wonderful person is covering up the fact that they actually feel completely unlovable and small. Keeping that big inflated version of themselves in the air takes tons of narcissistic supply (admiration, basically) and it only takes the gentlest of criticism to bring it crashing to the ground. Then you get to see the narcissistic rage. As I understand it, it's like a threat to their whole existence and you know they come out fighting. They might stop shouting at you at some point, and they might even say sorry, but in their heart all they feel is rage that they've had to lower themselves to apologise to you because you're so awful to have said this completely slanderous and outrageously unkind thing, but they are the bigger person etc etc... not that they are the bigger person, they'll just put revenge off to a later date.

Toomuch I think you might be right about the covert narcissism. She comes across as very confident, outgoing, bubbly and friendly but not full of herself and superior. The outside world has no idea what she is really like and I always get people saying she is so lovely.

They would be shocked if they read some of the emails and texts she has sent me and my sister and the awful things she has said to us. She’s horrible to her husbands too (there have been a few of them).

My counsellor said the same as you - don’t be suckered in by her promises of going to therapy. Essentially her email about it (we haven’t conversed for some weeks) was all about her and her pain and her feelings, not much about me. It could just be her using the role of victim to win my sympathy (it did sort of work too).

NC4 that sounds really tough. Everyone around you probably thinks your mother is this saint like, self-sacrificing person and it’s only you and a couple of others who know the truth. This is all a recent realisation for me so I can’t give any advice but I feel your pain. I’m just in the process of reading this thread from the beginning and it’s shocking how many people are in this same horrible situation, but it’s great that people are giving each other so much support.

Just found this thread! I've been NC with my Mother for over 3 years now. She has BPD and PTSD. Which was only diagnosed after I left the family home with my daughter and went NC.
She cant maintain relationships, I moved home 14 times whilst still living with her and went to 10 different schools. Always a new BF that was more important than her kids.
Suicide attempts or threats, guilt tripping, telling us of her SA at the hands of foster home and foster family as a child and using that as an excuse for her own shortcomings as a mother whilst we were still children.
Wasn't afraid to smack us around a bit especially my older siblings from a different dad than me and my younger sibling. When I was around 16 I told her if she hit me again I would hit her back, and I did. She beat the crap out of me but never once hit me again after.
Always tried to buy our affection and when that wouldn't work would cry on us that she was so terrible and she is so sorry for everything and then proceed with the same behaviours.
Left me and my younger sister home alone to go on dates with men and weekend trips away. Even 100's of miles away from the age of 13 for me and 11 for my sibling. She had practically moved out by the time I was 15.
When I unexpectedly fell preg when I lived at home it was hell. I lived in fear of when she would come back, she would walk through the door screaming and shouting about things that she needed done and it had to be done right then irrelevant of what I was already doing. I had to leave for my daughters sake. I didn't want her to grow up thinking that my mothers behaviour was normal. It took me a while to see my behaviour mirroring hers and be horrified at myself. Over three years NC I am in a much better place and life is so much easier without the constant worry and drain of what she will do next and how to avoid her episodes.

New to Mumsnet as a poster and got directed here from my own thread.

It's both horrifying and comforting to know I'm not alone in dealing with this. My own history consists of a lot of stuff it's hard to go into, tbh a lot of it is so weird that it's hard to imagine i'd even be believed. Essentially it consisted of physical and emotional abuse by both her and my stepfather. I cut contact with them and now I feel like a ball of anxiety waiting for blow back. My mother has always considered me to be her property to an obsessive degree, and I know she won't be able to handle me walking away without severe reaction.

Trigger Warning

@bananasinpyjamas18

No, your mother's past is no excuse. DSis and I are both SA survivors, I've posted about this on here before. but we've both got families (my 2DDs are adopted), and we're in stable relationships. I have complex PTSD and I'm on Sertraline, probably for life. But I'm determined to be the best mum I can be, especially as my DDs have attachment issues. My DSis is the same.

My DM on the other hand also suffered SA as a child, after she was orphaned, and she's never been able to form close relationships. She suffered EA at the hands of my F, who also sexually abused us. She was remote when we were growing up and could be physically abusive. Since we've grown up, she's been very controlling and turns on the waterworks when we stand up to her, or ignores us.

If you have DC, you have the responsibility to put them first. Your mother went through a horrendous childhood, there's no doubt about that. But she still had a choice when she had DC, she could have got help and turned her life around when you were small.

Regardless, you're right to be NC with her. Your responsibility is to protect your own DD, she has to come first. There is help available for your mother, she isn't your responsibility after all she put you through.

@toomuchtooold thanks once again for your kind reply.
Her partner has started to voice (mild) objections a few times, but then realises and stops. Usually texts later to try and retract anything even remotely negative. I think there is a real fear of abandonment and of being left uncared for - my mother has convinced them she is desperately needed and there's no surviving without her. Whereas anyone on the inside can see this couldn't be further from the truth!
We've tried to help, but they are thoroughly convinced by my mother's act - yet over the last few years have ended up very depressed and anxious and on increasingly stronger medication for these.

I guess this is like my own childhood/teenage years, where my mother had me convinced there was something really wrong with me, and the last person at fault was her. When I look back and think of some of the things I accepted and considered normal, it astounds me.
I came off the strong medication I'd been on for years (I started on antidepressants at 11) when I moved much further away from her and minimised contact, and have never looked back.
I had a formal diagnosis of BPD as soon as I turned 18, and had severe symptoms all through my teenage years. I can say with absolute honesty, the symptoms were almost entirely gone within months of getting away from her.
Now, several years on, I am completely asymptomatoc and have had the diagnosis retracted.

She had me convinced my abandonment issues were due to my adoption - which they somewhat were - but the bulk of the problems were in fact coming from years of major physical and emotional neglect. She had the perfect scapegoat in my adoption, and could use it to blame every issue or problem I came across to relinquish herself of any blame.
When I had first moved further away, I started to try and talk with her about some of the things she had done to upset me, in a very calm "when you did x it made me feel y" kind of way. Her response was quite literally "if there was better adoption counselling when you were younger you wouldn't have had any problems". She won't even give an inch in terms of accepting any responsibility for anything.
Even if she gets some inconsequential piece of factual information wrong, she will twist and manipulate everything she says to avoid saying "whoops, I got that wrong".

In a way, my adoption was similar to her partners illness in that it gave her a "matyr role" to play. "Look at me, surviving this difficult adopted child. Look at all the horrible problems she's inherited from her birth parents. Even all my love and constant care and attention can't help her!"
It was so obviously bullshit looking back, but I too was convinced she was the only person who cared about me.

@bananasinpajamas18 that sounds absolutely horrendous.
I can totally relate to the feeling of getting away and feeling like you have come up for air after years of drowning. I'd never realised that life could be this good, and that people could be so "normal".
I am so happy you've managed to get away from her, it's so liberating to finally stop listening to their excuses and decide for yourself how you will allow yourself to be treated. @lizzie48 makes a good point about not feeling responsible for helping your mother. From your post, I would infer that you owe her absolutely nothing at all.

@westberlin I too am new to the thread and share the horror/comfort of just how common this is - and I guess these are just the people who have broken free of the deceit and seen through it.
I can relate to the dissonance of many posters, of realising something was very wrong but it taking time to realise what or whom was causing them anguish.
I can also relate to the feeling like everything is so odd you'd never be believed - gosh do I (and I suspect most of us!) have some stories. My husband is quite taken aback with the nonchalant way I remember incidents I hadn't even realised were terrible/abusive/batshit crazy!
I can also entirely relate to the "mother considering you her property" - as I was adopted and there was a whole legal process involved, I think it really cemented the idea of her owning me good and proper! She changed my name against advice (I was old enough to know my own name), which I can now recognise as an assertion of ownership.

I'm so sorry you are so anxious, and I too remember the anxiety of having pulled away and thus bracing myself for the fallout. It will reduce in time, I promise. I honestly believe that being around these people for all our lives leaves almost all of us very anxious, and at times inable to react normally to many situations.
I can only speak from experience, but after some time (and guessing with hilarious accuracy with my husband what she'll say/do next!) I feel less anxious than I ever have in my life.

It's been suggested upthread to play "bingo" or to note and laugh at the ridiculous stuff she comes out with - I can wholeheartedly recommend this! If you guess what she'll say in reaction to your NC too, I've found it makes it easier for me to ignore. It turns something mean into me just thinking "well she would say that, wouldn't she ".

I hope my ramblings are in some way comprehendable!