"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi, @SneakyGremlins

As toomuch has said, I have 2 adopted DDs, aged 9 and 6, so a much smaller age gap than you and your adopted sister. There is another difference in that they're also birth sisters.

I'm so sorry you've been treated the way you have, that was really awful. Throwing you out at 15 must have been so hard. Did you get any help through Social Services afterwards?

I can see how easy it is for adoptive parents in particular to fall into the trap of having a scapegoat and a golden child. This is because inevitably with adopted children there will be challenging behaviours to deal with (not their fault at all, I hasten to add) and these days people applying to adopt are warned about that.

My older DD is exhibiting difficult behaviours right now. She has violent meltdowns when she hurts DD2 and me, throws things and trashes her room. It would be so easy for me to end up making her the scapegoat and DD2 the golden child. But I'm aware of this and make sure, as far as possible, that I treat them both equally. We're also putting a lot of time into getting DD1 the help she needs.

I don't know what help was available when you were growing up, but if you weren't helped, there is plenty of help you could access now, through the various agencies that specialise in adoption. Adoption UK is one: https://www.adoptionuk.org/. You can also contact Social Services, they will be able to access your adoption records, and they can refer you to Post Adoption Support, we're getting help for DD1 this way.

You would be better off seeking therapy that way, I think, as they understand the issues that come with adoption. It's very hard for other people to understand.

You're welcome to PM me if you want to talk further.

That was awesome lizzie

Thankyou so much Lizzie

I went to a children's home which ironically was an amazing place to grow up - they treated me like an actual teenager rather than a child. At my adoptive parents house it was very much "We're always right, no need to question our authority". I had a bedtime of 8pm! At 15! And that's just one example.

I'm not saying I wasn't challenging to parent - especially when young - but most of the arguments about behaviour etc were normal teenage things. Or is it not normal for a teenager to grunt in response to "How was school"? Because I got screamed at for that too.

They were very set in roles of the man is in charge and works and the woman stays home. And you must NEVER disobey your parents!

I know my adoptive father wished he had a son who could be just like him, and then they got me...

Phew. That was cathartic - thanks to anyone who has read all this!

Welcome Sneaky! glad you have found us here, it's a great place to be and will help you immensely. I feel so sad to hear how you were treated. that is just so awful :(

Reason I am here after so long is that birthdays are a crunch point, big birthdays are bigger crunch points.

I got cards from both my mother and my dad. They do it for themselves, don't they? My dad's included a note which among other things said 'I realise you do not want to have much to do with me..'

that's blame shifting right there, yes? I am glad that I opened them on the Saturday (well OH did and checked them before I got them) as it got the tears and sadness out of the way before my actual birthday.

I want to send a reply to point out how his constant negative chip, chip, chipping away at me and the effects that has had on me generally, and now that he started with his comments against my DS that I had to draw a line, and it was not ME not wanting to have much to do with him, it was me stopping hoping HE'D be different to how he has always been.

I've never told him why I've phased out, apart from when he completely excluded us from his 70th, nothing changed after that, it's not going to change again now. I won't be seeing him again, I'd decided that, so his note to me is a chance for me to set MY side of the story, for my own peace of mind.

It's printed off in my bag. not emotional, not woe is me, merely explaining my stance.

I'm sure you will all tell me that I shouldn't send it, but I'm not NC with him, he never calls me, I never call him, but it's not a 'thing' like it is with my mother.

I wasn't suggesting that you necessarily had behavioural problems, not all adopted children do by any means. Sadly some adoptive parents just shouldn't have been approved by panel, resent the fact that they couldn't have biological children and take it out on the vulnerable children they have adopted.

It does explain why they favoured your younger sister, because they couldn't cope with a teenager challenging their authority.

I'm so sorry you were treated like that. You've done amazingly well to come through the other side.

Was in hospital earlier in the week, and I asked for Diazepam at 2am (finally got it at 9ish). Idiot questioning me about it wanted to know why I needed it, why I had PTSD. I hope seeing the start of a panic attack made his day.

Picking the next months supply up shortly, my amazing pharmacist has promised to put them in a generic brown pill bottle. I'm taking 10mg atm, and I "hide" the pill in my palm with other nightly meds.

In other news, mother and brother are now engaging in psychological warfare. Texts along the lines of "we used to be so close, you're being unreasonable" etc etc!

Hi steve, are you home ok and safe now? How nice of your pharmacist, little things can go a long way.

Urgh re: your mum and brother, can you temporarily block their numbers?

I'm home, still pretty ill though. Contemplated going back to A&E earlier. I love the staff at my local chemist. Living very rurally they pride on being personable.

Hello all, haven't been here in a while, I've done NC for a while now apart from sending pics of kids on hols etc

Anyway now she has breast cancer

I don't know what to say about it, it's sad but on a level of hearing that your friends mum has it or someone in work etc
I don't feel connected to it
And that makes me feel terribly guilty
I feel bad for even writing this

Oh Mozzchops you have nothing to feel bad about, coming here is the right place. All feelings are 100% valid, we just need to process it all.

I don’t know how to help, or what to say, but I’d feel the same as you if I were in the same situation

@Hissy thank you

Im not sure if I'm an awful person or if these feelings are normal
No one really understands

Wow some of the posts here are so sad.

I had a very neglectful childhood. My father left when I was about 2 and my mum has always said it was because he was violent towards us and that he never tried to contact us. He died about 15 years ago and my brother and I went to his funeral. His family said that he did try to contact us. My sister (half, not his daughter) also said that mum was going to tell us something and that we shouldnt be mad. Never found out what it was.

I feel like my whole family bury their heads in the sand when it come to our childhoods. Mum was an alcoholic (still is dependent but doesn’t wake up and start drinking and doesn’t around us). We lived in an absolute shit hole of a house. Went hungry most of the time, weren’t clothed properly and were neglected. She also hit us a few times. I never remember doing homework or anything for school. Looking back now I can’t believe that school didn’t pick up in it and SS weren’t involved.

Ever since having my dc 2 years ago it’s been playing on my mind more and more. My mum is heavily involved in my life and looks after dc often. I don’t have much other support and am a single mum. I’m scared to bring anything up in case I lose the support I have from her now but there is a lot of resentment.

I saw this thread mentioned on another thread about mothers and thought I’d join in.

Mozzchops my mother had breast cancer while I was NC with her. My father forced me to talk to her by essentially shaming me. The worst was when he made me speak to her on the phone just after she’d come round from surgery. It was horrendous. I felt nothing more for her than an acquaintance, with an added shit ton of guilt, so I know how you feel.

My father was violent and sexually abusive. My mother is unhinged and used me as her personal therapist for as long as I can remember. When I rebelled she turned very nasty and would make up stories about me so that I’d be in trouble with my father. I never had any proper food even though we had a reasonable amount of money. I was made to wear clothes that were too small for me and I was sometimes beaten if I protested.

I was NC for years and didn’t go to my father’s funeral. In the last year I’ve had small amounts of contact with my mother but I don’t think it’s doing me any good.

I am so angry at her and don’t understand how she can just act like everything is fine and play the poor widow card. I fantasise about having it all out with her but I’m not sure what I’d hope to achieve by doing that.

I’ve recently started therapy and I’m talking about these things properly for the first time. I often feel quite unsettled the following day - is that to be expected?

Hey guys, checking i today as i am having a really tough couple of days. Been progressively feeling worse as the week is going on and randomly bursting into tears.

For those of you who might remember I have been nc from my mother since may, i dont remember the exact date, dont want to. I dont miss her and i feel like my life is better without her in it.

But today i feel guilty. She has been playing on my mind for a while but today it hit me hard. I was thinking about christmas (i know crazy in this heat) and how it will be exciting as lo will know what is going on this year and all the things we could do.

Then i thought about her and christmas and how much she always loved it and the traditions we had. Things werent always bad with her and we did have some nice times. Then i thought about what she would do this year and i just feel awful how she has lost so much.

But then i remember the things she has said and done to me and how horrible she can be.

And my head explodes

Sorry for the ramble, i dont really have anyone else to talk to who will understand

Hi, I've name-changed, but been reading statelyhomes for a while now.

I’ve read posts and websites, and although I’m in my mid-30’s, I’ve discovered that I had an abusive childhood.

I know it sounds crazy to just be realising it now, but at the time I thought it was normal, and as I got older, I thought I was making mountains out of molehills.

The thing is, I don’t know what to do about it.

I’m very good at putting on an act of being happy, looking back, I realise that I did that at school so that no one would know that I’d been upset at home - because I thought they would think I was a horrible person for upsetting my mum (because I ‘upset her’ this was the reason she was abusive to me - mostly emotional, sometimes physical, sometimes just smashed up my belongings)

As an adult, I’ve always felt very lonely, and that I don’t have any real friends (I have friends, but not close ones)

My husband is emotionally absent and isn’t interested in me at all! (That’s a whole other thread!)

I feel very ‘down’ most of the time, I try and keep up my happy exterior, but on the inside, I’m crying.

I have been on various antidepressants over the years, but they all just made me ‘numb’, like the world was carrying on around me and I was in slow motion and unable to react to it. I didn’t feel that they made my life any better, just different, and not a nice different.

I’ve accepted and blamed myself for my childhood for decades now, and it’s only since having children that I’ve put myself in their shoes, thinking what my mother was like with me when I was their age.

Thinking about this makes my depression worse, that’s why I haven’t sought counselling, but I’m wondering if it’s a hurdle that I need to get past in order to start living my life, or will it push me further into depression?

I’m a bit stuck really, does anyone have experience of getting through this?

Does it help if you keep focusing on the GOOD mother your children have?

That you won’t be carrying on her tradition and that thankfully you’re emotionally strong enough for it not to have shaped or defined you as a woman or as a mother

Let go. Carrying her around in your head is weighing on you, and she does not deserve this amount of space in your life.

It’s ok to be sad, this stuff is excruciating. In time yes, you should look at counselling to support you in processing all these feelings

Remember, depression is anger turned onwards, time to refocus and let go of it.

((((Hug)))

Inwards not onwards!

I haven't been by for a while as I'm more or less at peace with everything now. The cards and cheques from the children's birthdays were destroyed. We haven't let the children know about them, although I think one of the children did see the first ones while I debated what to do.

I have got to work out how to see my grandma though. The children, especially my youngest daughter, are asking to go and visit. Does anyone know if the care home could stop me? I'm going to give them a call and see if I can work out a time when my parents (mother) and sister don't go in.

@GummyBear123, I did start to explore everything with counselling myself but both I and counsellor ended up cancelling so many appointments I've given up now. I know I felt much, much worse before I started to feel better.

It has been enough for me to recognise that I was starting to do to my children what my mother did to me. I don't want that for them.

@MummatoaMunchin. I too couldn't tell you the last time I properly saw my parents. I know with clarity the last day my children saw them. 28th may 2017. Dd1's 9th birthday. They dropped by to bring her birthday present. Things hadn't quite kicked off into full nc then but they had turned up unannounced and I was in that FOG stage.

The head exploding will stop. It sounds like you are in the FOG at the moment. It gets better as more time passes. I didn't feel guilty at not sending my mum a Mother's Day card. Although I had a pang of sadness when seeing them on the shelves. Now I feel relief that I don't have to deal with all dance that comes with me feeling like I've been out back in my place as a subservient child when I'm a parent myself.

Afternoon everyone,

I haven't posted for a good while but remain LC and grey rock with my mother.
My father has massively dropped communication his end, now Skype video and phone calls which are initiated by him or me end up with me being passed onto my mother.
No warning, just pleasantries before a rushed, "here is your mum" then contact is thrust upon me.
It wouldn't be hard for them to realise that channels of communication between her and me are blocked.
Clearly my dad has to display loyalty to his wife and until recently we had a better relationship than between me and my mum (narcissist) but he is all for an easy life. Life at home would be much better for him if I was complient but it's not the case.

How do I explain to him that I do not want to be thrust into making small talk with her?

Hi. I’ve been reading this thread on and off for a long time but never felt able to post before now. I don’t feel able to discuss everything regarding my relationship with my mum at the moment. But things have kind of reached a point we’re I need to deal with things now.

I’m pregnant and as such have been thinking about what kind of parent I want to be. I’m finding this very stressful as it’s bringing up lots of memories for me that I haven’t thought about in years. Also my mother’s behaviour is causing me to feel stressed too, and she always puts a lot on me.

I’m so worried I will end up parenting just like her. And I worry about exposing my child to her and the whole cycle repeating.

I’m having a bad day today.

@gummybear

that is exactly how I feel. Spent my whole childhood pretending that it was all ok. I don’t really have any close friends either. I feel like I won’t let people get close to me.

Same with my OH, or I should say ex as we are splitting up.

I think I need therapy but don’t know where to start.

to everyone

Hi everyone

I’ve directed people to this thread many times but don’t think I’ve ever posted on it myself. I usually post my personal shit in Chat so the threads disappear, but I know I’ll get infinitely more empathy and support here!

Feeling very fragile right now. DH and I have our own struggles at the moment and things have recently come to a head with his toxic and frankly batshit family. The dysfunction has always been there but things have got much worse since our son was born (since I was pregnant actually). We are on the verge of going NC because DH has just found out they’ve been contacting his best friends and telling them all sorts of nonsense including the fact that they think I’m toxic and bad for him, which has really hit a nerve (because we’re struggling with our relationship atm).

I don’t know if I’m looking for advice as such but just a bit of sympathy and hand holding would be lovely.

Also I’ve read some of the previous posts and just want to say I’m so sorry for everything you have all been through

Hi AnotherEmma!

The thing about these people, IME, is that although they don't have much empathy or even curiosity about what other people think and feel, they are quite good at observing people and knowing what buttons to press. So the thing of them targeting your relationship when it's fragile, doesn't surprise me at all. I can really see why you would want NC, because it's going to be hard to resolve your issues when you know your inlaws are around and will be looking for weaknesses to exploit. It doesn't exactly encourage honesty and vulnerability.

Lolly realising that her behaviour was abusive is the first and biggest step to not repeating the patterns of abuse with your own children.
Would you have the money to do therapy privately? It'll make it easier and simpler - then it's "just" a matter of finding a therapist you get along with. The BACP has a searchable list of counsellors and therapists - if you want to talk about your childhood and explore things in depth, person-centred counselling or trauma/childhood trauma are the terms to look for.
I think if you can, it would be better to try and do some sessions before the baby comes, not only because you'll have more time now but also because it might be a bit easier to cope with any feelings that come up, before you've got the emotional onslaught of the baby's arrival as well.
Another idea for once the baby arrives would be to check if your local children's centre has any parenting classes. They might not address the in depth stuff about breaking the cycle of abuse but they would help you get a sort of baseline of what a normal upbringing is, and you'd also get to meet other parents who might also be finding it hard. It helps enormously. It was a couple of other twin mums who basically chased after me in the shops one day and were like "right, you've got twins, you're our friend now" who kept me sane in the first few months after the kids were born.
Have you thought about whether you're going to have contact with your mother once the baby is born? You don't have to.

Mumao it sounds like you would like to be able to have things out with your mother, but as she's not drinking around you (are you sure) and you need the help (and you do, I mean, having a neglectful or abusive childhood doesn't magically kit us out with the resources to do without help when we have kids), you don't want to rock the boat. But you need to talk to someone, and therapy might be the thing if you can get that sorted, because you would get the chance to say it out loud and have someone acknowledge it for once, and a therapist will be able to help you with ways to find closure without raising it with your mum.
Also, and forgive me for being a bit hard-hearted here, but although your DC is small and hard work right now, they won't always be, and maybe in a year or two's time you'll be in a situation where you can risk raising this stuff with your mum, when potentially losing her help
won't be such a big setback?

Hi Minisoks! I'm glad to hear you're feeling at peace with things. That's awesome.

gummybear it will get better in time but it's bloody hard doing it when you've got kids, I know. It's kind of like you're trying to fix the bus while you're still driving it, IME - kids need your emotional presence and they're emotionally challenging every day, and you're having to deal with the emotions arising from therapy while also being there for them. It will get easier.
This might be totally off target but there's a lot of stuff in your posts about numbness and lack of feeling and feelings being dulled and negative and stuff. from Richard Grannon is about learning emotional literacy after a lifetime of suppressing emotions, it might be interesting.

Takeout have you tried just saying to him, dad, I phoned you up to talk to you, can you stay on for a while? Or does he find a way to hand over the phone anyway? My dad used to do that, he was terrified of saying the wrong thing to me in my mum's earshot. In the end I started phoning him up during the day when my mum wasn't around (he worked night shifts, and then retired).

@Minisoksmakehardwork

Some days i feel better than others like you said its just time.

God i hated doing mothers day it felt so false, i always picked the most simple cards because all that gushing about how wonderful they are felt like a lie because she wasn't.