"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sorry - meant to add, I can't seem to actually "feel" anything about the fact my father could well be dying. Other than that I must be a monster to not feel sad or want to cry

I'm feeling very hurt and let down right now. I had a nasty accident a few days ago and ended up with a head injury and a bad knee. This happened because I was with DD1 and I held on to her to protect her rather than putting my hands on the floor to stop my fall. Thankfully she wasn't hurt at all, only me.

My DH took DD2 to meet up with my mum and DD2 told her about the accident and how I was bleeding from my head. She just didn't care at all, no call or email to see if I was okay. She just doesn't care, she's only interested in the girls. It seems as though she's not interested in a relationship with me unless she's the one pulling the strings.

I always thought she cared, however difficult she could be sometimes. Now I'm having to accept that actually she doesn't really care at all. I think she only really wants a relationship with people she can control, not an equal relationship.

It's been a real eye opener. Now I will focus on being a good mum to my own DDs, they need me to put them first.

AllHear- Oh gosh, what an awful situation.

Some (scattered, apologies) thoughts:

• The impact of a parent's death can be huge, and delayed. This can be the case if the relationship is bad, as well as if it is good. Don't assume that the way you feel today will be the way you feel in a few weeks. Denial and numbness can sometimes give way to other stages of grief. (And sometimes not).
• I think much of your decision depends on what has happened - you don't really say much about this - and how you want the relationship to be in the future. I would only go on holiday if you're prepared to burn all bridges forever. This can be a painful and stressful decision to reach, but sometimes it's the right one.

Allihear I don't think there's any wrong feelings you can have if a parent dies, everyone reacts differently - and even moreso with a parent with whom the relationship has been difficult at best. critique is right though, you might find that it all hits you later.

I don't know if this will help, but I wonder if it would be worth just trying to acknowledge the fact that, as the family scapegoat, there's probably nothing you can do in this situation that your siblings will approve of. They will find something to complain about if they want to.

I think your mother is wrong if she thinks that food and shelter make a good parent. Those are (some of) the things that you have to give your children if you don't want to go to jail for neglect. It takes more than that.

I wonder if there is anyone in the extended family who would be likely to be sympathetic - maybe there's a black sheep uncle or someone who had the same role as you? And whether you might want to disclose some of your experiences to them? That would at least give you someone to talk things over with, someone who knows the family dynamics, you might feel more validated in your feelings without needing to convince everyone of what happened. I mean, I don't think you should feel obliged to share your story with anyone - you know what happened to you, and you absolutely do not need to explain yourself to others.

If I were you I would say go on the trip. If your parents wanted deathbed devotion, they had 60 years to build that relationship with you.

**AllIHearIsBlahBlahBlah

You are not a monster.

PS Just popping in today to see some friendly faces because I'm feeling so drained by my mother. I know I've put on a little extra weight lately (not masses), mostly because of being overstretched with work and DD and so grazing instead of proper meals, but I'm already putting in some lifestyle changes to get healthier gradually. But out of the blue I get my mother bursting into tears doing the whole "I'm so worried about you. You're obviously depressed because you're eating too much and I'm so worried, you need to see someone" thing. Then when I tell her I'm upset by the criticism, I get the whole rant about what a perfect mother she is and a whole list of everything she's done for me lately. Mostly unsolicited stuff she's bought for me, especially clothes because she's always been controlling about what I wear. She likes doing "look what a wonderful mother I am" gestures, which I hate because she never asks what I actually need and I know it's all going on a list to hold against me later. I just don't know how to deal with her anymore. I can't cut down contact because I don't feel mentally strong enough to deal with the "how dare you deprive me of my grandchild" tantrums.

Hi everyone,

So I have a dilemma - during childhood Mother was (ab)using diazepam and other benzodiazepines and tried to commit suicide twice. (It's great walking in on your mother unconscious and see notes).

I've been prescribed diazepam for a couple of months to help with PTSD and panic attacks. It's not been something I've delved into but the process of getting the box and taking a pill left me teetering on the edge of an anxiety attack.

So I guess this is something else that happened during childhood to affected me deeply right?

Bit rambly, sorry, just needed to get the words out.

needsleep I recently found out there's a name for that - concern trolling. It is fucking irritating, isn't it. It's all about performing being a good mother, and also at the same time actually undermining you and upsetting you - because if you're happy, how is she going to lavish all that unsolicited "care" onto you?
You know that if you cut contact completely you wouldn't have to deal with her tantrums? I'm not trying to say that you should definitely do that, it's an individual decision, but I wonder if you could move away from feeling like you have to manage her emotions? If you said "you're doing my head in, I don't think we'll come over this weekend" and then she phoned you up to rant about it, can you imagine saying to her "I'm not listening to any more of this" and then putting down the phone? What would she do, would she recruit family, would she escalate? If you couldn't hear her, would you care? We're grown up given the impression that our abusive parents' emotions are our responsibility, but they're really not.

Hi Steve!

Christ, so do you think you maybe saw something as a kid, you had a reason to be scared if you saw the box? Bloody hell. Does that just counteract any benefit you'd have from taking the tablets then? I wonder if it might be something you could get round if it was a different packaging or if they prescribed something different? Good luck with finding a sympathetic doctor, though.

In other news I was listening to a Radio 4 podcast today about people who've been estranged from their families - two from children, one from parents - if anyone fancies listening to it I'd love to discuss it.

I’ve just listened to the podcast- so many emotions from listening to that conversation! Interesting how estrangement can be seen as a “normal” within a family- both of my parents are estranged from their siblings, which possibly made the option of me going NC with my own mother look less scary?

The question regarding being difficult was challenging- estrangement is a two way process and personally, I am probably not entirely blameless in the relationship breaking down beyond repair but at the same time, my mother’s abhorrent behaviour to me as a child was not my fault. No child (or adult) should have had to put up with such sh1t behaviour and emotional neglect. Finding a balance between drawing boundaries, accepting any genuine personal responsibility (not what a toxic parent wants to project onto us) and not adopting a victim mentality is so so hard and I am finding it very difficult to move on, even 15 months on. Hoping a course of counselling/hypnotherapy helps 🤞🤞
Sending love and strength to you all xx

Ah, thanks for having a listen of that. I found the "takes two to estrange" section really interesting - usually I really hate it when people quote that line, as it's just ideal for abusers who can then shift blame onto their victims - but the answers the women gave were quite telling I thought. Two of them were quite prepared to think over the details of where the relationship went wrong; the third blamed everything on her teenage daughter's hormones and refused to entertain the idea that their relationship until then had been anything other than perfect. I think she once mentioned some small thing (what Issendai calls the "fallacy of proximal cigarette bumming" i.e. you pick the most trivial detail of the conflict and offer that up without context as if it was the whole reason for estrangement) but otherwise seemed to have no insight into what had happened. I'm going to listen to it again I think.

Yes her lack of wanting to take any form of personal responsibility was very telling, and I imagine a lot of posters would identify family members behaving in a similar way.

Hi Steve just wanted to say, my F also had a benzo addiction. I wanted to just express some sort of fellow feeling. I don't have any words of wisdom I'm afraid but I do get completely how you must feel seeing a box of them.

Hi, I’m currently in psychiatric hospital with severe anxiety and depression, the fourth stay in as many years. I grew up surrounded by conditional love, abuse and rejection. This is the cause of my illnesses. Today along with my therapist, I have realised that I need to walk away from my family, Mother, Stepdad and sister. Today I got up every bit of courage I had and phoned my stepdad to say that I didn’t want any further communication from him, my mum or my sister, I could barely get the words out and made it as quick as possible.

I’m in so much anguish and the pain, overwhelming sadness and sense of loneliness is horrific.

I don’t have a husband and live on my own so it feels emotionally disabling.

I’d be greatfull to hear if this gets better and if anyone else has needed to cut of their family.

Hello.

I believe this is the place for me, sadly.

I'm still not quite ready to share everything in all honesty, it feels like there's too much, further things even today.

However, I was just wondering if anyone had found help with Mind?
I'm really needing to address these issues I have with a toxic mother, however the only form of therapy the Dr's offer is CBT and I just don't feel it's the best fir for me and these issues. I feel like I need a bit more than that.

Tinkerbelle well done. I'm so sorry that you find yourself in this situation, but yes, it does get better. It's a lot to grieve though, you know, just because it was dysfunctional doesn't mean you're not going to be grieving, whether it's for your family relationships or the relationships you always hoped you might have. But you will feel better, eventually, it'll get better. Alone is good, alone is a good place to start. It's very common, lots of people on this thread have had difficult and abusive romantic relationships as well - the damage repeats itself. You've taken a massive step today, it will get easier

Hello bethy hopefully someone will be along soon who's been in contact with Mind, I think people off the thread definitely have spoken to them... I'm not in the UK so didn't talk to them or NHS, I went to a therapist who specialises in person centred therapy - very non directive, just chatting most of the time. Mostly therapists will do an introduction session, and I found what helped was to just ask about their attitude to childhood trauma, to reconciling dysfunctional families (if they were in favour of reconciliation I'd have run a mile) and overall just try and feel for whether they are someone you think you could get along with.

Hello Tinkerbelle and bethy

Sorry to hear that you’re both going through such difficult times.

No personal experience of Mind bethy but have you asked your GP specifically about counselling? A number of mental health trusts will offer counselling under their mental health care umbrella, although as you can imagine waiting times are significant. Can you afford to invest in some private counselling or person centred therapy?

Wishing you a speedy recovery tinkerbelle. Well done on making such a tough decision, I hope you have gained some strength from doing so.
From my personal experience, going NC has not been the magic bullet to make everything better - in fact it seems to have triggered a grief process in me, for the childhood and mother I deserved but never had and 15 months on I am still trying to work through it.
What it has done is liberate me from the FOG I carried, the emotional drain of battling/tolerating her, and it’s breathed life into my battered self esteem. I no longer have to beg for scraps of approval off anybody.
I can move forward with my life and look for positive influences with which to raise my daughter rather than risk perpetuating the cycle of abuse and emotional neglect. I would rather die than inflict that upon my daughter so the best thing to do was to break away.

Whereabouts in the UK are you? My lovely therapist has told me about an organisation called Stand Alone which works with individuals estranged from family members, they run support groups and various courses in a few areas of the UK. Hope it’s something both you and bethy are able to access and find helpful

My mum told me I’m unloveable, horrible to be around and ruin the holidays for other people. I don’t know why. She hasn’t spoken to me for six months since then because for once I spoke back. She’s done this silence thing a lot for years - often a week of silence while living in the same house - but not for this long.

It makes me sad and quite teary every day. I don’t even know why she’s angry. I don’t even merit a text or phone call - it’s like I am nothing to her, like a friend she just has fallen out with. I feel like nothing. Am on antidepressants and she is the reason. No matter what my husband says I feel like I am worthless because of how she has made me feel. And worse, she still speaks to my sister - it makes it even nastier, that she has picked a favourite and meanwhile I’m dirt.

She texted me yesterday with a totally mundane question about some books I’d left at her house (it isn’t home, she made sure of that). Such a mundane text, as if we had spoken in the last half a year. Like I’m her cleaner or some neighbour with a passing friendly relationship. Nothing like I’m her daughter.

I feel so, so sad.

And even now when she is being so cold and silent, I’m too scared to tell her that’s how I feel.

I had music lessons and a great education and amazing holidays and every academic and sporting opportunity. I never felt unconditionally loved though - and until I met my in laws that didn’t even feel strange. I really really wish my mum loved me unconditionally.

I was actually directed here by MNHQ.

Hello everyone. I was adopted at 19 months but had an average upbringing until age 8, when my adoptive sister joined the family - at which point for 7 years I was constantly the scapegoat and she was the golden child, easy going daughter and I was labeled the troubled son, until I was kicked out at 15.

May I join?

Thanks for the replies.

I'll give the GP another go, I might also call IAPT and see if they can offer anything else, I just know for now CBT will not do for these feelings I'm having.

I'm not sure Stand Alone will be any good, I'm not estranged right now, although I don't have any contact with my father, my Mother has never shared anything about him or his family, I don't know if they even know about me.

Thank you

Hey tinkerbelle.

Hope you all have a decent night - will do a proper reply in the morning.

Morning!

Misericord have you read Toxic Parents or Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Links are on the OP, I would recommend both of them if you haven't read them. I think that it would really help you to understand the dynamic behind your mother's behaviour. this article about ignoring mothers might strike a chord as well.

Silent treatment's horrible. My mother used to do it while I lived at home, stopped after I left - but I'm an only child so she doesn't have another kid to go favour when she's pissed off with me. That thing of silent treatment and then coming back in with a text about something really mundane - am I right in thinking that she's trying to make out that she's redefined your relationship, like you used to be mother and daughter but now you're just like a casual acquaintance or something? And if you call her out on it she'll make out like she has no idea what you're talking about?
My suspicion is that all of this stuff is supposed to wind you up. You annoyed her by speaking up 6 months ago and as ignoring is her style, she just transferred her attention to your sister. Now either she's bored with your sister or Dsis has said something to annoy her and suddenly you look like good value again.

I know that knowing it and feeling it are two different things but I have to say it: your mother is the last person on earth who deserves to be the arbiter of your self worth. These people, their emotional development is so stunted that they can never understand what a precious gift and a responsibility it is to have children who will always look to you for love and approval, even if you're awful to them - especially if you're awful to them. It's like being thirsty and only being able to get salty water. You'll drink it because you need water and that's all there is, even though it doesn't quench your thirst and only makes it worse. We leave childhood with a gaping hole where the sense of being a basically OK human being should be.

You're scared to tell her how to feel, and I think you should listen to that emotion. That feeling is not coming from nowhere: you have a correct expectation that if you try and elicit some motherly concern by telling her how hurtful she was, you're not going to get a loving response in return. Has she ever changed her behaviour to the good as a result of you explaining how hurtful it is?

My suggestion instead would be to look at ways to foster your own self esteem away from your mother. Do things you're good at, and things you like. Maybe helping people would boost your self esteem, doing voluntary work or something like that? And have you thought about counselling? I would guess that if you can find a counsellor who is kind and who you have a rapport with, you would benefit a lot basically just from the comfort of having someone to speak to who will listen and pay attention.

Hi Gremlins!

Welcome
@Lizzie48 has two children, both adopted (is that right?) and I wonder if she is about and could offer some insights on that side of things? I think that family dynamic of the older child being displaced into scapegoat role is common in dysfunctional families - the younger one's cuter, they don't have as many opinions, they're more easily impressed etc. And then once there is that initial difference, it's like the scapegoat kid can't do anything right - they just keep finding reasons why you're the bad guy. It allows the rest of them to keep up that sort of "we're all perfect and we love each other and we're all sweetness and light" illusion (I would imagine that at least one of your parents comes from a house where anger, or at least their anger, wasn't allowed) because they blame all the discord on one person.

Toomuchtooold - thank you so much xxx