"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Mini gah! What is it with narcissists and birthdays. Honestly you could draw a drama graph and it would peak at all (their) birthdays, anniversaries & Xmas.
My Dads birthday is on Xmas day so you can only imagine the 'look at me' dance that goes on.
This has all blown up recently with my Mum because her birthday was approaching. FFS.

Lizzie48 sorry to hear that. How insensitive. Sounds like she's got her head rammed in the sand. The kindest thing you could maybe say is that she just can't afford to 'get it'. There is too much at stake to accept the reality of what has gone on.
I sympathise though. I think this is where I am at with my mother. Her constant minimising & aligning herself with him is painful to me.
I've taken back control though. She has left a teary voicemail to say 'sorry' (that I am taking it like this, when it wasn't meant that way - grrr). I'm ignoring her calls. She has texted me twice asking to call me. I've said no. I'm working FFS, they have no idea. In truth I'm done and have very little left to say. 2 1/2 years of trying to be heard.
I am trying to be positive and not let them repeatedly torpedo my happiness.

Gah, I need a handhold.

I told my sister to fuck off at the weekend. The backstory is long (whose isn't?) so I'll try to keep this brief. She is the golden child in the family. I am the scapegoat. She has very much contributed to perpetuating this dynamic (she lived at home until her mid 30s and basically ensured that the most toxic interpretation of everything I said and did was heard). She refuses to acknowledge or to believe the abuse that I went through at the hands of our mother as a teenager - and instead blames the family dynamic on me as a moody, violent teen at whose hands she was a terrible victim. (I will be the first to admit I wasn't that stable, but that's because I was being regularly punched, denied food, kept up all night, and basically having someone try to control every thought I had). While I can see that, from her perspective as the younger child, she just saw a dysfunctional environment, I find the gaslighting of my experience or its minimising very hurtful. It is done quite deliberately, too - she is quite scheming and tactical about it. More recently, she and the rest of my family have offered zero support over a diagosis of infertility. And I mean literally zero, not even a kind word. The infertility is caused by a medical mistake. (This is relevant).

Soooo, this weekend my sister starts to talk about a medical situation involving another family member (elderly). And she starts praising the NHS to the rafters - it's SO well regulated, it's SO well run etc. 'The lengths the different teams go to are extraordinary
They do care, greatly' etc. etc. And I say 'What about me? The system wasn't there for me - its gets away with whatever appalling crap it can, whenever it can.' And she says 'I'm talking about social care, are you DRUNK?' And I just flipped. I said 'No, I'm fucking infertile because the NHS didn't take action when it could have. And you know this. And you should know better'. And then I told her to fuck off.

I know I was being unreasonable. BUT WHO THE FUCK TELLS A VICTIM OF MEDICAL NEGLIGENCE WHO IS INFERTILE AS A RESULT OF THAT NEGLIGENCE THAT THE NHS IS WELL RUN? I mean, I can't think of a clearer example of the way in which my family minimize, ignore or generally discount my pain.

pig

flowers

Sorry you experienced that at the hands of your sister.

And also this weekend: I have an an old friend. We haven't met up for ages and we were never super-close, but we grew up playing music together, we communicate regularly on Facebook and our mothers used to work together and know each other from birth (playdates and babysitting) so we have some history there.

Her mother has been terminally ill for a long time, and died recently. Her father contacted my parents straight away to let them know. Now my parents know I am in contact with this friend - we are the closest 'tie' between the two families these days - but they didn't bother to ring and tell me. So I didn't know. So I sent her a message on Facebook this weekend, asking her how her dead mother was doing. .

I am completely mortified.

She was lovely about it once she realised what had happened and that I genuinely didn't know, and we had a long chat (with laughs and tears) about her mother's life and all the things she did. I will send flowers and a card later.

I am fuming, though. I spoke to my parents for an hour on the phone over the weekend, and they didn't once mention it. I rang up soon after I found out, because I assumed they didn't know - and my Mum said "Oh yes, we knew days ago". And dissolves into tears, like she is completely bereft. She's not bereft, and a signal marker of that is the fact that she genuinely forgot to tell me about any of this when we spoke for an hour. Why on earth they didn't pick up the phone and tell me as soon as they knew is beyond me.

The thing is, this is always the pattern: I am left out, discounted, ignored, kept out of the loop, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally, because they just don't see me as a person with feelings. The idea that I might care about my friend's mother, and want to know for the sake of being able to offer timely condolences and support to a friend, doesn't occur to them.

It's selfishness plain and simple.
In no way are they thinking of you.
I'm not surprised you lost it, you should go easy on yourself for that.
And I would see a LOT less of them 💐

So very sorry to read about your friend's mother.

Re your comment:-

"Why on earth they didn't pick up the phone and tell me as soon as they knew is beyond me.

The thing is, this is always the pattern: I am left out, discounted, ignored, kept out of the loop, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally, because they just don't see me as a person with feelings. The idea that I might care about my friend's mother, and want to know for the sake of being able to offer timely condolences and support to a friend, doesn't occur to them".

You've answered your own question above in that answer. They make it all about them, my MIL is the same and made her H''s illness and death all about her. They also act as gatekeepers of information because that gives them power too. Her grief as such if you could call it that was false. Do not forget such disordered of thinking people have NO empathy whatsoever, their lack of empathy cannot be overemphasised here.

People like your mother also need a willing enabler to help them and that role is played here to perfection by your dad.

Cut all forms of contact with them down to a point of zero. It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist so it is not worth at all trying.

Good point about the lack of empathy atilla.

The thing with my sister is that she is one of those people who thinks of herself as terribly compassionate and lovely, but she's actually inflexible, judgemental and thinks she is always right. She literally cannot clear her own ego out of the way enough to be able to see anyone else's suffering or pain. I know that her response to this incident will be 'I am not speaking to you because you told me to fuck off when I was making a technical distinction between the health and social care systems' and not 'You are clearly in agony about what has happened to you, and it's about time I started listening'.

I got really ill a few years ago, to the point that I had to leave my job and was housebound. I couldn't even get downstairs at some points. My family did not visit me once.

Hello, I posted on here last year a bit about my relationship with my mother, who I suspect has narcissistic personality disorder (I think on the last thread). The responses were really helpful, so thank you.

I've now reached a point where I feel like I would benefit from some counselling but I don't know how to choose a counsellor. All the reading I've done suggests that it's important to choose a counsellor carefully as lots of them don't fully understand the effect of having a narcissistic parent.

I wondered if anyone had any expereince of choosing a counsellor after realising one of heir parent was narcissistic? If so do you have any tips on the best way to find a counsellor who will 'get it'.

Hi chocolatefiends. Mine was luck really. I started with a Meditation course which really helped me not to think about it all the time.
Then I signed up for some weight loss hypnotherapy. That was helpful but really raised more than it solved with regards childhood. However it turned out that the hypnotherapy lady was a CBT therapist so I already felt comfortable with her.
The CBT has been /is very helpful. I still feel a basket case at times but I am growing stronger.
Maybe speak to them over the phone or do an introductory session?
Good luck 💐

Chocolate many counsellors will offer an introductory session either free or at a discount, so that you can agree some aims and see how you get along. With mine, I told her upfront that I believed my mum had NPD, and while I didn't expect her to be able to offer a professional opinion on that, I needed to know whether NPD was something that was accepted as a thing within her therapy's philosophy. Having said that, I think that any counsellor should be able to identify the abuse in your mother's behaviour and if they start giving you the whole "I'm sure she didn't mean it like that" bullshit then it's best to avoid. See also any counsellor who subscribes to "two sides to every story" or who seems to be listening to you and agreeing but you get the feeling they're just humouring you. Basically, listen to your feelings. If it feels right, it probably is right.

Fc301 and toomuch. Thank you. That's really helpful. I'll book an introductory session with one and see how that goes.

I have done cbt before but not specifically in relation to stuff with my Mum.

👍😊
I imagine the more CBT you do the better you feel.

I don't know if CBT is the right counselling for every situation.

Don't get me wrong, I think it can work brilliantly for things like controlling intrusive thoughts, obsessive behaviours, or breaking any pattern of really negative and destructive thought/behaviour. However, I found it quite frustrating when it was offered as a remedy for abuse, because the CBT counsellor I had would only focus on the behaviour itself, not the cause. So we never actually discussed what had happened, just my reactions to it. It ended up feeling a bit of the process was missing. I have found person-centred counselling a lot more useful.

This is just my experience, though, and everyone is different!

I'd agree with that pig - I found person centred therapy more useful than CBT. It definitely depends on the person.

Hi I posted on AIBU but someone suggested here.

To just cry? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3273539-to-just-cry

I felt so drained these last few days! I grew up in a household where my mum hates my dad and vice versa but they've stayed together!

Everyday they'd slag each other off to me (from the age of 5) and to each other but never leave each other! I suffer with anxiety and depression and it stems back to them and my siblings and in particular a brother consistently bullying me!

I've woke up this morning feeling confused and angry...the sentence that keeps whistling around in my head is my Mother saying "You we're never sexually abused and you always had food to eat etc you should count yourself lucky".

This weekend I decided to go no contact with the majority of my family. I feel like I should ring and apologise but I can't...they've made me miserable, they've made my life hell, we're not a supportive family...we don't get together in a crisis...there's just jealousy and rivalry...there's resentment when DH and I do ok.

Why? What have we done? Why be so hostile? Why be so nasty? I have watched my parents relationship and luckily had the influences of friends parents together and divorced and think ok my parents have serious 'issues' it's like they are trying to one up each other? Me and DH we don't play games, we talk to each other, we get a little shouty when frustrated but we talk we sort things, we ask each other about our day, we spend time together, we go away together, we spend money on each other, we're supportive, we like and love each other...why can't my Mother and sister accept that?

Why did my mother have to say on my wedding day well she's certainly spent money on making a show of it...the dress doesn't look right though to my sister...within ear shot of my bridesmaids and friends, when I get a phone call from my Mother why does she say you're always spending time (the weekend) with DH it's not healthy?? Even though I've took her out shopping in the week and used annual leave, took her to her hospital appts, friends houses, been to their house which I HATE going to as narcissistic brother is there!

Why is it my dad has to comment on my weight at every opportunity..."you're a clever girl but you're just so big" "you're gut is hanging out" "you need to lose weight" this started from age 8, he would allow my brother to draw pics of the Michelin man and hang them everywhere so when I got home from school I was constantly reminded I'm disgusting (I used to eat tiny amounts but then gorge food when he wasn't around) I put 4 stone on at uni alone but it felt bloody good!! Now my weight is out of control and basically killing me!

I'm expected to drive across town to pick him up from his bowls games, pick him up from shopping, Hospital appts! I organised their anniversary party...it was a duty according to my mother...seeing family id not seen in ages including my uncle who knows all about my parents ways was refreshing...he's the Uncle I wish had just taken me away to live with him and his family...they weren't 'perfect' but they are close! Aaarggghhh I could just scream! I just don't know what to do...I've been to my GP and there's an 8-10 week wait for counselling I can't afford private...are things ever going to be ok with me three so much more but I'm exhausted.

tothestars - I'm sorry that you are going through this, it sounds truly awful. I'm reminded of that meme that does the rounds on the internet: 'Before you diagnose yourself with depression and anxiety, make sure you're not surrounded by arseholes".

I suspect that you are being used as a punch-bag by the family, because it makes them feel better about themselves. I also think that by withdrawing/going no contact you will send a clear message about your value, and you've taken a good first step towards restoring your confidence and sense of self-respect. (It's very hard to maintain both of those things in an environment where you're not getting acknowledgement as a beign with feelings).

Don't apologise for going NC, and don't try to explain it to these people. Just do it. But also remember that NC, to be healthy, has to be non-committal. You can't do it in the expectation that it will make people have a Damascene conversion to behaving in the right way. It is unlikely to have that effect. It has to be a genuine "I no longer think it's healthy for me to care about what you think, or to be spoken to in this way"... and walk away.

@pigmcpigface thanks for your reply, I never thought of it that way...it's probably why I'm so exhausted and angry at the same time...I always had it in my head that they would change but their not going to are they...my parents that is? I know my siblings will never change...I just feel so alone...my DH is amazing and his dad is lovely...he is an only child so we worry a little about how we only have each other but at the same time feel so lucky that we do.

It's highly unlikely they will change, I'm afraid. I think while you hold out for that, you are exposing yourself to a world of pain. Accepting how things are (even if they are 'wrong') and finding ways of coping is a better way forward.

I am sure that if you pour the kindness and love you've shown to these people (in spite of their nasty behaviour) into friendships with nicer people, you will find that you are very far from 'alone' as you age!

Yes over the years I have neglected or took my frustrations even jealousy (of their parental relationships) out on others. Thanks already your giving me a lot stuff to mull over.

This is a hard thing to talk about.

My counsellor has this idea that I find helpful - it's of a person who is "well loved". Someone who comes from a nice, secure family home where love is not earned but taken for granted. She describes this as a kind of emotional nutrition. For life, that child will carry within themselves a sense that they are loveable - a resilience and a resource in bad times.

Someone who is not well loved doesn't have that to fall back on. They have to build up their sense of self-worth from a much lower base. Where the environment is quite hostile and difficult, and the person is being told that they aren't very loveable, all kinds of fundamental questions about that person's worth begin. Maintaining a healthy sense of self in the face of that can be difficult.

Unsurprisingly, children faced with this kind of emotional deprivation tend to act up - it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy that the person is just 'difficult'. I personally feel that this is where sibling dynamics can become tremendously destructive - particularly where there is a 'golden child' who can do no wrong, against whom the scapegoated child is compared. That sibling immediately has a huge stake in the maintenance of the dynamic that sees them achieving love via comparison, so that all kinds of strange competitive behaviours can begin. (This isn't healthy for the golden sibling either, because the love still isn't unconditional, but they are often still in a better position than the scapegoat).

And because families often run on very deep-seated dynamics that are designed to protect all kinds of truths from being seen, it can be very hard to break out of that dynamic. It sounds as though your family are continually dragging you into a place where you are basically reverting to being that 'difficult' and unloved child, and that this is leading to you acting out in much the same way as you would have done when you were very much younger.

I think the way to redress this is to walk away and to place yourself outside of the family dynamic. It is not a path that is without its pain - it can feel like a kind of chosen exclusion - but it is better than being dragged back continually into the role and vulnerabilities of an unloved small child!

@pigmcpigface you've hit the nail right on the head! I've had a real good cry at this today! It's all true...all so true! I hate them I really hate them I'm angry at myself for not walking away sooner! DH feels guilty as his mum died and he was trying to ensure I kept a relationship with mine. I hated going to the family home! Every time I would go back to memories of childhood and leave feeling so down even when we'd had an alright time. I finally see today every time regardless I go back to that child and incredibly unhappy teenager!

I dont know where to start really. I'm in my 60's and come from a very dysfunctional family. From the outside it looks normal but it really isnt. I think I am the family scapegoat, from what I've read, but they would dispute this.

I have 2 sisters and 1 brother. They are constantly falling out with each other. One sister chose to go NC with me a few years ago (it was a relief). the (secret) dynamic of the whole family is dreadful.

None of the awful things that have happened to me over the years have been acknowledged (and actually some of them I have never told my pafrents about - eg sexual abuse by a grandparent when I was a child). On the odd ocassion I have tried to talk to my parents about how I have been treated within the family, I have been told I am imagining it, or told things never happened the way I remember them. I have also been told I am selfish all my life.

That's it in a nutshell - if I wrote everything down I would be here for a week and I'm also a bit worried that once this is published on the internet, it is there forever and someone might see it who knows and recognises me - and somehow I feel guilty for writing this down, although I don't really understand why I feel that way other than that even though I know things have happened, I question whether I am wrong and my parents are right when they say I'm wrong (hope that makes sense).

The reason I have come here for advise today is because my father is very ill in hospital. There is a good chance he may die. In 3 weeks my DH and I are due to go on holiday with our adult DC's, and to be blunt, I am worried that if my father does die, we will be expected to cancel this. There is no chance of postponing the trip, as it has been a huge task to book something on a date we can all get holidays from work at the same time. In a normal family, I'm sure this is what would happen, the trip would be cancelled. But ours is not a normal family. Sadly though, because extended family do not know most of what has gone on over the years, and see my parents as good parents, it will indeed look as though I am just living up to my selfish reputation. My mother will certainly think I am heartless, as she thinks they have been good parents (we always had enough to eat and a roof over our head).

I'm useless at standing up for myself, and all my life I have just thought least said soonest mended. I'm ,maybe therefore to blame that people don't know what my life has been truly like, because I've never complained and just sort of faded into the background when the yelling and shouting and the he said, she said, it's not my fault, rows started.

So I have two questions really - am I unreasonable in not wanting to cancel a trip my own family has planned for and been looking forward to? and if not how do I hold my head up and stand my ground?