"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you toomuchtooold & Attila. Absolutely spot on. I have read both carefully and will do again later.
She's been with him 50 years. It will never change. It is abuse. While I am almost NC with my father he continues to wound me through her.
I feel repeatedly betrayed by her. So I am changing how I respond to them.
The whole gist of the conversation was 'you've turned everything'. I did point out it's not a social norm to invite yourself and others to my house. I didn't point out (should have) that the normal response to 'you've hurt me' is 'I'm so sorry I didn't mean to'. Not 'no you don't feel like that'!
It's not for me to train them in basic niceties & respect, which are all absent.

Hey guys i thought id give an update, and just needed to know if its me and im in the wrong.

My mother turned up again ringing the doorbell for 45minutes, i ignored it as my son and i were upstairs playing, his room is the back of the house so i shut his door and pretended we werent in.

She went and then came back again an hour or so later. I ignored it. Then my brother rang, he was there too and said (very fed up and not wanting to be involved) just open the door. So i did. She told me she brought my brother simple so he could look after my son so we could talk. I said no i have nothing to say.

Basically she kept asking why i was doing this and the reasons i had given her were not good enough. (Apparently it is acceptable to send abusive emails because shes only stating the truth and threatening to take to me to court is allowed because she has a good case, because she formed an attachment to him!)

So i turned around and said its because your a narcissist. Well she wasn't happy with that and said she had spoken to a councillor and they said she wasnt and i should be careful what i say as its slander.

So we kept going round in circles until i admit i got a bot aggressive (i growled at her os the easiest description) to get out of my house. Her parting shot was that everything she was true i am abusive and nasty and cruel.

Now i am sitting here wondering if its me, im the one with the issues. And i should be more sympathetic to her. I am so fed up. I feel i owe her an explanation but i just dont want to go into it and go round and round in circles as she argues against everything i say. Hubby thinks i should write a letter just to give everyone closure. I am just worried that one on paper it will look pathetic and i am in the wrong. Or she will use it against me in some way.

Sorry again for the long post, im just so upset.

Hi mumma,

re your comment:-

"My mother turned up again ringing the doorbell for 45minutes, i ignored it as my son and i were upstairs playing, his room is the back of the house so i shut his door and pretended we werent in.She went and then came back again an hour or so later. I ignored it. Then my brother rang, he was there too and said (very fed up and not wanting to be involved) just open the door. So i did. She told me she brought my brother simple so he could look after my son so we could talk. I said no i have nothing to say."

That sort of thing from your mother simply amounts to harassment. I would call the police if she tries that again. Never open the door like this to her ever again on your brother's say so either, that was your one error here.

Typical of your mother to get your (perhaps golden child) brother involved; he is just as bad because he allowed himself to be involved at all. He should have really said no to her but did not because he is favoured and would rather see you cop her abuses than he. He is culpable also because he is her flying monkey and acted as one. These are easily manipulated relatives or friends sent in by the narcissist (your mother) to do her bidding for her. That is why she used him; he was used and he let her do it.

re your comment:-
"Basically she kept asking why i was doing this and the reasons i had given her were not good enough. (Apparently it is acceptable to send abusive emails because shes only stating the truth and threatening to take to me to court is allowed because she has a good case, because she formed an attachment to him!)"

What she is telling you has no basis in fact; she is doing her version of sticking her fingers in her ears. I hope you have now blocked her access to your e-mail account.

I read previously you've already cut her off three times before now. You need to make the 4th attempt however a permanent one and not go back for more of the same from her. Nothing is good enough for your mother and she purely wants her own way. Also grandparents have no automatic rights of access to their grandchild/children so the onus is very much on her anyway to prove that such a relationship would be beneficial to your child and in his interests. That is not ever going to happen. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she will most certainly be a toxic example of a grandparent to your most precious resource that being your son. Why would you at all want her and your brother around him?. Narcissists as well make for being deplorably bad grandparents, tend to under or over value said child, use the child as a tool in their arsenal and they have NO empathy; I cannot stress enough how lacking in empathy they are.

re your comment:-
"So i turned around and said its because your a narcissist. Well she wasn't happy with that and said she had spoken to a councillor and they said she wasnt and i should be careful what i say as its slander".

More rubbish comments as well as outright lies from your mother. I doubt very much that she has at all seen any counsellor. Apart from anything else narcissists do not do at all well in therapy and can and do infact manipulate such people. They also idealise, devalue and discard such people. Even if she does go to therapy (unlikely in her case anyway), has a great therapist, and sticks with it, do not expect her fundamental personality to change. She will still have the same urges to keep thinking, feeling, and behaving the same way. It's a deep habit that feels good—or at least prevents her from feeling bad. Habits are hard to break, and making changes is a process, not an event, that can take years. Your mother will not magically change into a sensitive, giving person who thinks of others first. This is completely unrealistic. Think of NPD as a chronic illness that will always prove challenging and can flare up at any time.

Re your comment:-
"So we kept going round in circles until i admit i got a bot aggressive (i growled at her os the easiest description) to get out of my house. Her parting shot was that everything she was true i am abusive and nasty and cruel".

More projecting from your mother; it is she who is really this here. She is really describing her own self, her hatred really has no bounds.

Re your comment:-
"Now i am sitting here wondering if its me, im the one with the issues. And i should be more sympathetic to her. I am so fed up. I feel i owe her an explanation but i just dont want to go into it and go round and round in circles as she argues against everything i say. Hubby thinks i should write a letter just to give everyone closure. I am just worried that one on paper it will look pathetic and i am in the wrong. Or she will use it against me in some way".

No its not you, its her. No to explanations being sympathetic to her; you would not have tolerated any of this from a friend. Do not JADE; justify, acknowledge, defend or explain. Your mother is no different. You cannot reason with this crazy batshit woman that is your mother and you should not even try. You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got and finally accept fully that she will never be the nice and loving soul you perhaps so want her to be. She will never give you her approval and you are going to have to let go of wanting that.

Unfortunately what your DH (who himself likely comes from an emotionally healthy family) suggests here simply will not work. Your mother wants a response from you and a letter will simply add fuel to her insane bonfire of her vanities. It will most certainly be picked apart and used by her against you no matter how carefully worded the letter is. As for closure, no it most certainly won't be that but another whole new level of pain.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and you will only get peace ultimately if you have no contact whatsoever with her (and your flying monkey of a brother).

This link from the Out of the Fog website may assist;-

outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain

It's not you. She rang the doorbell for 45minutes!! She's crazy.

Hi Attila

Thank you for getting back to me.

One thing i will say, my brother is only 18, is working on getting away from her (lives with her) and is just trying to keep his head down so he can pass his exams and get to uni i myself remember how hard it is to say no to her when she wants something so i dont blame him. He like me wants to be free but is a little more reliant on her at the moment. He was the golden child (probably is at the moment) but recently hes not been so much. He kind of is a flying monkey but not a full one (if that makes sense).

I did say to her if she ever did it again i would call the police and get a restraining order, def an error opening the door. But yes i have blocked on on all forms of communication so she can only get to me at my home which i will not fall for again!

Sorry i must have said it wrong this is the third time i have cut her off, no intention of a fourth! See i thought this as i had done a bit of research but i didnt argue it and let her think she has rights to see my son. She thinks she built a relationship with him she hasnt she doesnt know him at all yet think she does!

I think she is seeing a councillor as she has mentioned it in the past, but i agree with you i find it hard to believe she has told them the truth. Plus her version of events are distorted so she wont see herself in the wrong.

Thats what i keep telling myself if it was a relationship or friendship it would be over if they behave liked that. (In fact i have cut a friend out for doing it to me once) so just because she is mother why should i put up with it!!

My dh def has a much emotionally healthy family! Thank you for saying that!! Thats why i have not been giving her any form of reasoning i just feel it will make everything worse and just make the argument carry on. Though i was starting to doubt myself and thought maybe i was being a coward.

I dont want any contact, i just want her to leave me alone! Hopefully she will get the hint! Thank you for the link it is very helpful!

Fc301 i think its cause she knew were there (you can see the pram)

But i agree a normal person does not so that or press their face up against the glass to see in!

I'm feeling really confused. I've stopped contacting my mum because I'd had enough of her controlling ways and her gaslighting. I was also sick of being messed around. We arranged to have a late birthday party for DD1, and mum was supposed to come for tea. She called earlier in the day saying she'd tried to do some shopping but everywhere was shut so could we bring the party forward. This meant that our au pair couldn't get there. I suspect it was deliberately, as it was Easter Sunday and of course the shops would be closed.

The strange thing is that she just hasn't bothered to get in touch. I emailed her to let her know that DD2 had broken her wrist. She emailed back with more suggestions of what she could do with DD1, and a message of sympathy for DD2, I gave a non-committal type of reply, but since then, nothing.

She's done the same with DSis, just not contacting her. It just feels like she wants everything done her way, though she dresses it as her helping us. And I've been a lot firmer with her, which is probably a factor.

But I'm conflicted, as I do miss her, and I feel guilty for not checking in to see if she's ok. But I am feeling less guilty about my DDs, as they're no longer asking when they'll see her.

Hi Lizzie

Was the arrangement re tea before or after you going no contact with her?. What she did here btw re that I would take as a deliberate sub on her part.

No contact is precisely that however so was wondering why you thought it at all necessary or desirable to e-mail her re your DDs wrist injury. You need to block her and stop reading any replies she sends you because its doing you no favours and prolonging your own confusion here.

Reading between the lines too it looks like she favours DD1 over DD2 and if that is the case favouritism should not be tolerated. This is the sort of crap narcissistic grandparents pull as well and they make for being deplorably bad as grandparents (she was also not a good parent to you when you were growing up). The fact too that your DDs no longer ask when they can see her is also very telling.

Why do you miss her at all or is this really your fear, obligation and guilt talking here?. Examine your reasons more closely and consider working through those with a therapist. You've been conditioned as well from soon after birth to put her needs first with yours dead last so it will take some further time to get yourself fully out of the FOG.

Re your comment:-
"She's done the same with DSis, just not contacting her. It just feels like she wants everything done her way, though she dresses it as her helping us. And I've been a lot firmer with her, which is probably a factor".

She has done your Dsis a huge favour as well. Help dressed up as control and or wanting her own way is patently not helping. You've also tried to raise your boundaries here and that is something that she will not like at all.

I'm not no contact with her, I'm low contact. And I've never said anything to that effect to her, I just stopped calling her after the meal, occasional emails are easier to cope with. I think no contact would be better, but I'm not ready to go there yet. I'm finding it easier to just ghost her.

I don't think it's favouritism as such. She hones in on the person who is vulnerable, and DD1 has Attachment Disorder and SPD. In the same way, she is all over my brother like a rash, because he's vulnerable. She likes to feel needed, hence the trips to Africa.

I think I've been brainwashed to think I owe my family. My mum used to constantly want me to look out for my brother. And it has helped to learn about FOG, so I'm getting it now.

I miss her because she isn't all bad, and I can see why she is the way she is, with the life she's had. I guess it's similar to the fact that I grieved when my F died. Because it's only in the last few years that the scales have fallen off my eyes, starting when my DH's SIL expressed astonishment at all the family rows we had. I started to realise that we were dysfunctional and always had been. And then during the adoption training seminars we were discussing what children needed, obviously safety was mentioned. And I realised that safe was one thing I'd never felt.

So much on these threads - incredible! It's taken two years of therapy and an impending divorce to get me to realise how dysfunctional my family is and also soon-to-be-ex's family. While on the surface our families looked very different, if you scratch a bit I think both families had/have a lot in common. Narcissist fathers, co-dependent mothers and lots of children complete with the the golden boy/girl and the scapegoats. What is fascinating is that when the golden boys/girls have their own families, their children get to carry the mantle into the next generation.

My sister was the 'golden girl' and she was the only one of the children that my mother would really stand up for against my father - or at least on a few occasions. The golden girl sister was determined that her own children would get the lion's share of attention from grandparents and they were more than happy to oblige with sister's children always seen as the 'best' at everything.

When I was growing up, when-ever I achieved anything my mother would say I was 'lucky'. I was the only one of my siblings to be put into a scholarship class at school but when my then head asked my mother if she wanted me put up for a scholarship my mother looked astonished and dismissed it out of hand. She couldn't accept that the elder siblings hadn't been chosen. Why me? A lowly number three in the family whose role was to be seen but not heard.

My father I now realise has quite a serious personality disorder. I would say that emotionally he is on the level of a toddler, practically. He cannot bear not to be in the limelight and is particularly jealous of several of his children. The ones that command attention for some reason. He loves surrounding himself with lapdogs. While for a time the eldest child - my eldest sister - had a scapegoat role I would say that now I have that lovely role. Especially since I had the temerity to confront the golden girl over her spiteful behaviour a few years back. Her own children can do no wrong and I don't think I have ever heard her reprimand them. The youngest is particularly spoilt and will blame anyone else for things (especially me if he can get away with it). He has managed to get my own children thoroughly onside and they think the sun shines out of you know where. But I have seen through his tactics and think he will probably be in for a bumpy ride as an adult.

As others have probably noted, confronting narcissists is a big no-no. I was a pariah for ages. I refused to apologise for upsetting my sister and my father, brother and sister in law (brother's wife) all took her side and exacerbated the situation. It took me ages to work out that sister's behaviour was nothing to do with me, per se, she was simply projecting onto me as there was stuff going on in her husband's life that had brought 'shame' upon his family and she didn't want all the cousins talking about it. Rather than confiding in me and explaining the situation, she decided to do her usual 'everything is perfect' routine. In some ways I feel sorry for her because it is so difficult to measure up to being the 'perfect' family. She and her husband just take themselves and everything soooo seriously.

In recent years, my whole family have done quite a good job of ganging up against me. Probably because, as well as confronting the narcissists (don't!) I have filed for divorce. My father has spend an entire lifetime boasting that 'no-one in this family has got divorced' - this despite that fact that he was a serial philanderer and lived apart from my mother for years. He pretty much abandoned the younger children in the family who have the psychological and emotional scars to prove it. He just has no moral compass whatsoever. Money is worshipped and is used to buy 'love' as well as punish and control. He is incredibly misogynistic and my mother chose to turn a blind eye. A generation or so ago divorce was still quite taboo and divorced women carried a stigma, even if the husband had been a total arse. You were supposed to 'grin and bear it'. Because I am doing the unthinkable, I am seen as a loose cannon. My family were mostly on the side of soon to be ex who managed to paint to them a picture of a deranged wife who was crazy with a serious alcohol problem. In fact, when I point out things like: 'how can you always be on holiday yet not be able to pay your vat bill?' he calls me a fantasist! Nice one - accuse your enemies of doing what you are doing and you can rile them so badly (because it is so unfair) that you can then get the 'crazy' label!

Soon to be ex has always proclaimed that his family are completely normal yet he has remarkable blanks about his childhood. Remembers very little at all. Rather like my own family, I think there was a remarkable lack of parenting - very few rules or boundaries but the occasional over-reaction. Utterly hopeless with teenagers with no idea about what might be age-appropriate and hugely critical and disapproving of any romantic/sexual interests. This really was so destructive. Every now and then one or other of my parents would wheel in some chinless wonder as a prospective partner and then be amazed that we didn't find them alluring. They would inevitably be as dull as ditchwater. Yet both my parents had relatively colourful pasts before their (admittedly far too early) marriage. They just couldn't accept their own children having relationships. I guess this is the hallmark of narcissism. The children, even as adults, have to satellite around the parents and not really get lives of their own. Not sure where I am going with this. Just wanted to offload really. And share some insights.

Sigh.

Butterballs
Thank you for stating that your Dad can be jealous of his children. This is definitely a thing but so very taboo that very few people can believe it. Lucky them!

Attila, love your wisdom.
Am NC with narc mother and siblings, it’s always been a mess and I have had to leave the whole drama of it and be without them. Elder sibling wears the golden child crown, this the child who narc mother didn’t speak to for 2 years for some slight or another when we all lived in the same house growing up. The ways of the narc are baffling, hurtful and never cease to amaze me, even now in my fifties I will never understand how they tick and rather than keep putting my fingers in the flame and hoping this time it won’t burn I have chosen to walk away. These characters can literally make you physically and mentally ill and I need to protect myself. Love to all affected by narcs, in whatever capacity xx

Someone in AIBU told me about this thread when I posted over there so here I am. It's mainly about my mother, a long story, I'll try not to leave anything out.
My mum has always been difficult. I remember her as very loving, almost overbearing on one side, but if you did some "wrong" (as in something she considers wrong) she'd make you suffer for it. One of the earliest memories of that is having a kindergarten friend she didn't approve of because he was regularly violent towards his playmates. She told me not to play with him anymore but he persisted to ask and we let him join because everything else would be mean. When it came out during a christmas party, she took me home, told me off and said being attacked was my own fault.
A few years later, when I was in primary school, my parents got divorced due to my dad cheating on my mum. I can barely remember the first year or so after this, but I have been in therapy. What I can remember is my mum getting "stricter" and "meaner". Snide remarks against Dad and family, rants, inquisitive questions about "who was there when you were with dad?" etc. My little sister and I soon had a diplomatic routine to keep her off our backs. She would kick off over the most minor things, bad grades (aka. not full marks), our rooms not being in the state that she wished to see etc which would conclude in her having a fit, throwing things either around the room or out of the window (in loving memory of my perfume and a treasured cookbook, as well as a DVD I had borrowed. R.I.P). After "exploding", she would go on to give the silent treatment for days, then have a tearful chat with saying things like "I love you, it's just everyhing so hard for me as a single mum and you're not making it any easier". We would then apologise (not necessarily meaning it, but to end all the drama) and everyhing would be fine for a few days/weeks/months until the next trigger.
In secondary school I hit a little rough latch by being an obnoxious, rude, lazy kid which ended in detention and letters home. She would make a fuss, then the routine I described would kick in. Scared of this I'd hide the letters and try to forge the signatures, which only got me into more trouble. Ended up seeing the school's psychologist, first my mum agreed but when the lady tried to tell her that her behaviour was contributing to the problem she started to badmouth her etc.
Got over it eventually and grade-wise I have always been very successful.
Fast forward to her focus slowly shifting to my sister, I always tried to keep the peace because the bad mood at home really got to me. I graduated last year and moved to London to work on a one-year contract before starting university. (I am from overseas, not a native English speaker so sorry for any confusion btw).
Now my sister and her are home alone and clash at least every other week about almost everything. Both then expect me to fix their crap. Which I can't do from over here so joke's on them. I'll add the link to the thread about their latest alteration later because I just can't type it all again. I suffer from anxiety, depression, low self-esteem and I have become such a people pleaser, it's ridiculous.
Now this morning I texted my mum something completely unrelated which she proceeded to make about their recent fight. I then told her to stop dragging me into it which completely set her off in a lengthy rant about how she is cancelling everything and how she simply wouldn't survive another act of treason by my sister (I am not kidding or exaggerating, those were her words), it's not the first time she's hinting to death (not necessarily suicide but more general), it worries and annoys me in equal measure. I told her, she chose to ignore it, I chose to ignore her for my own peace of mind, her last message came through as I am writing this post ("Are you there?").My sister blames me for "running away from my problems" and my dad is half-absent, as usual. Sorry for the long post but I am at my wits end and needed to get it out

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3248108-AIBU-to-be-annoyed-at-my-family?watched=1&msgid=77956847#77956847

here's the link

Annoyed - it sounds like you need some help. You say you suffer from anxiety, depression, low self-esteem and are a people pleaser. Try to get some help. Your family sound incredibly difficult. Try to step back. It's so tempting to try to think you can change them or 'fix' things. I know - I've tried this myself and it ended up seriously damaging my mental health. Narcissists find it amusing to manipulate other people's emotions. They don't show remorse for having behaved badly. So you get the double whammy of the bad behaviour and then a denial of it happening or, worse, you being blamed. This latter technique is really sneaky and really damaging to mental health. It's crazy-making at its worst. Also known as gas-lighting. It makes you question your own sense of reality. It sounds like you need to take a big step back. Try to disengage from the emotional manipulation. Limit contact with your parents so they don't 'trigger' you and try to surround yourself with people who are supportive and kind. With less exposure to toxic people, you can start to heal and find a new way of living and behaving.

It's horrible having to face the fact that members of one's own family - one's own flesh and blood as it were - are toxic or can behave in ways that are toxic. But in order to understand what is going on it's important to recognize the behaviour and its negative impact. Only they can you start protecting yourself. Take small steps every day to look after yourself and minimize the impact that your parents have on you. You are not responsible for sorting out their mess.

@butterballs9
I know that I need help, it doesn't make sense to get help here as I'll be back home for university in October, but I am already looking for a therapist in my area so I can start treatment as quickly as possible. The downside is that I'll have to pay for it myself as I am still on the family insurance and I don't want my mother to find out.
Everything blew up when I finally answered that her texts (especially with things like "I can't survive this") were upsetting me. She answered that she's not doing anything and of course everyhing is important to me but her, my poor mother. It is one of the rare occasions of me, standing up to her and she ended the chat with "Well sorry, I won't bother you anymore" and blocked me. As mean as it sounds, it's quite a relief as I am finally getting some peace. My sister is obviously taking after my mother, that's why they enjoy fighting and drama so much. I feel like I don't belong anywhere, I am only good enough for unloading all their emotional baggage but my feelings don't count. My father is more like me but busy with his own life. The only person who is on my side is my grandma (mum's mother) but she's rather fragile and I don't want to burden her too much

@fc301 - yes, it is difficult to wrap one's head around. My father was brought up by a nanny who doted on him so I don't think he ever really learnt how to take responsibility for his behaviour and the impact it might have on other people. He then married my mother who lost one of her parents very young and I think never really got over this - her own father packed her off the boarding school as a way of dealing with this. It was harsh and cruel but he didn't know any better and probably couldn't deal with his own grief, let alone that of his daughter. Bottom line is that neither of my parents were ever effectively parented and this tends to get carried through generations. I tried to break the pattern with my own children and I think was successful up to a point. Although I failed to spot that soon to be ex was a wolf in sheep's clothing. He's quite shallow on an emotional level and has never really been that considerate towards me. He lacks empathy which I think it probably the biggest giveaway in terms of spotting narcissism.

Because I had a narcissistic father I didn't really know any better and just assumed it was normal. I ignored a number of red flags but to be fair his behaviour was fairly typical in the circles that I moved in. The men were typically quite misogynistic and expected women to be decorative but not assertive or opinionated. Soon to be ex actually seemed like the best of the bunch at the time but I think he is probably more cunning than I gave him credit for and hid his true character quite well. Not long after we got married I found some of his old school reports and was horrified! It was clear that he simply could not follow instructions or take any authority. I should have done my homework in this respect.

What is sad and so hurtful is that my father cannot show me any real warmth or affection. He will to other people, though (eg: he was quite kind to soon to be ex but very harsh towards me). But with his own children (and grandchildren) he can be harsh, judgemental and downright cruel sometimes. He also does the divide and rule thing - even among his own children which is despicable. He wouldn't have dared do it so much when my mother was alive. But since her death the narcissists in the family (father, brother and his wife, one sister) have upped the anti. They took sides with my soon to be ex over the impending divorce - presumably because soon to be ex is also narcissistic.

It's horrible having to admit and face that fact that members of one's own family (especially parents) have a personality disorder. I now realize that I did what my mother did - married someone who is not my equal. Soon to be ex's parents had a similar dynamic. His father was a raging narcissist and chose the perfect wife who would put up and shut up. My father did the same. And low and behold soon to be ex followed the pattern. He was SO persistent in his advances (yes - that love-bombing thing) that he wore me down. He used to say to me: 'you will never find anyone else who will love you as much as me.' Right from the beginning I noticed that he had serious jealousy issues too.

With regards to wearing me down, he's doing the same with the divorce. I think he is hoping I will give up because he is making it so difficult. And he keeps danging carrots in front of me like family occasions etc. But this is a battle he is not going to win. He's had a bloody good innings quite frankly. He's been a total arse about money but I suppose that is the norm.

It takes a long time to recognize the dysfunction within one's own family which can often be well 'masked' by money/status etc. Certainly is/was in my family. Some really high achievers and high earners but this hides a lack of heart and compassion. A kind of 'dog eat dog' mentality. The narcissists in the family can't cope with any kind of vulnerability which they misconstrue as weakness. Everything has to be 'perfect' - at least on the outside.

Butterballs9 yes it is interesting & helpful to hear about your situation (in a 'shame it's happening to you' way). Can definitely track it back through the generations.
And yes yes yes to the divide and conquer thing.
Interesting that you make the point about it becoming worse after someone dies.
This all kicked off big time after all 4 grandparents died. Father is coward enough that I don't think he would have dared to treat me how he has if his parents were still around. Bastard.
Not taking my mums calls now. I am really done on the sympathy for her front. Sick of explaining. Apparently I'm the problem, like I would willingly inflict this amount of pain on myself 🤔
I think after 50 years with him she is narc enough to never ever 'hear' me.
Sad, but I want to live my life (which is otherwise good and happy) for as long as I have without them fucking it up for the the whole time.

I think the reason it took so long to see it was that for 42 years they told me they loved me and I believed them. When their actions consistently did not back this up I was forced to accept they don't (possibly can't).

Love is an action. Words can be just words unless they are backed up with action and with sincerity. My parents never ever said they loved me but I do think that in the case of my mother - and occasionally my father - the actions spoke for themselves. fc301 - it may be that your parents genuinely did feel that the loved you. But they didn't know how to show it or were incapable of acting in a way that showed love. Probably because it wasn't modeled by their own parents.

They do believe they love me. I think the kindest thing I could say is that I don't matter ENOUGH to them (not enough for me).
In truth it's too late now. My mother can try but all I hear is hollow insincerity, as you say no action to back it up.
From my childhood my father has demanded all her attention. He was quite loving and tactile to me but now that I don't give him narcissistic supply he despises me, his actions show this.

@AnnoyedAndStressedOut

As mean as it sounds, it's quite a relief as I am finally getting some peace.

That doesn't sound mean at all. Something that's dawned on me recently is that although falling out is largely considered by society to be a bad, shameful, thing, it can actually be a real blessing. Enjoy the silence!

Indeed. Silence is golden, so they say!

The obligatory birthday cheque for Ds1 arrived today. I had thus far succeeded in avoiding collecting the recorded delivery letter from the sorting office, knowing what it was when the red card arrived 2 days after Ds1's birthday.

I must admit it was quite satisfying knowing it was there and it would be clear it had neither been received nor cashed.

Sadly there was a mix up at the sorting office yesterday when I was collecting another parcel and postie delivered it today while I was out. Ah well. It has joined the others in the shredder. Dh said he wasn't sure he recognised the handwriting so better safe than sorry - he did know we thought that's what the card was for.

I am still enjoying the freedom from obligation. I need to work out how to see other relatives who I do want to maintain contact with. But I don't want to risk bumping into my parents.

My mum has now sent my DSis a jvery bizarre email. She was asking whether DSis would like to have a very large photograph in a frame of our F with her as a toddler? We were both baffled by that, why would she bring it up now, when we're struggling with the memories of what happened to us as children?

DSis had previously said she would like to have that photo, but that was a number of years ago when we were still telling ourselves we'd had a happy childhood. Our DM must surely have realised that she was being insensitive in the extreme. Although I did wonder whether she might be becoming senile?

Either way, it's confirmed to me once again that she's toxic and my DDs and I can't be around her.