"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks million toomuch
He might actually be happier to watch rather than read so great suggestions, ty.

thank you ever so much I really appreciate your reply- what’s difficult is that 70% of the time my mother is not the evil b*tch that I know she can be, and can be sweet and charming, and I cling to that, every time telling myself that she’s changed and that she loves me now, when in actuality she hasn’t and doesn’t, it all comes crashing down with a snide comment or a surreptitious jibe at one of my (many, thanks to her) insecurities. I have repeatedly entertained the idea of calling childline however I am afraid of what they might do- she doesn’t need to be taken away and I am simply unsure of what measures that they might take which could be legitimately effective. eternally grateful it feels so comforting to know there’s others in my corner❤️ (I love my brother dearly and try to keep him out of any arguments however it is plain that she prefers him and does little to disguise this. It is in no way his fault but it does sometimes make it difficult for him to understand why there is so much turbulence in my relationship with mum, since he rarely sees that side of her)

Ella I don't think you have to give your name to Childline, so you could scope out what your options are if you wanted. It would be very good to have someone on your side - you are quite young to be dealing with all this stuff on your own.

Someone who is abusive 30 percent of the time is still abusive... see if the cycle in this article looks familiar to you.

I am absolutely gutted since going no contact with my Mum after her making up awful lies about me she has spread them everywhere, My Nan lives in a small town and has told her neighbours and the rumours have reached my inlaws who live in the same town! I am so upset and sick of being portreyed as an awful person. I could cry. Even when I go no contact she still makes my life hell.

Hi sickandtired, I'm sorry about your mum. Mine did a similar thing to me and it's horrible. I still think about it a lot, 3.5 years later. It's hard, there are people here (in a small village) who think they know all this awful stuff about me, none of it true. I went and spoke to them when it filtered back to me that she'd been slagging me off, but it didn't help all that much.

I am so embarrassed by it all Golondrina, The lies are terrible and make me sound awful, I am so ashamed and embarrassed I dont think I could talk to any of them about it.
Its like because I wont speak to her and have blocked her she finds other ways to hurt me. I could never treat my kids the way she treats me.
Are you no contact Golondrina?

Yes, since November 2014. I live in Spain, she followed me here and until we left we were living in the small large village/small town. It's a long story, but when I went NC with her she decided to storm off to the UK and sold her house here. I think she thought she was calling my bluff and that I'd not let her go.
Anyway, by total bastard coincidence, the people she sold to are this weird Spanish speaking couple who speak English to their kids, so it was easy for her to reel them in, she didn't even have to try to do it in Spanish.
It was all very odd, but from what I can make out, she let them believe she had some awful illness, seems like she implied she had cancer. And that I wouldn't let her see the children. I'm fairly sure she told them I had stolen money from her and was trying to get money out of my brother who used to have a flat there. I'm not sure what else, but I've been told "it was pretty nasty".
These people clearly believed it and gossiped about it all, that's how I found it, it got back to me through mutual friends after about 18 months. I had suspected it though as the people who bought her house totally snubbed me in the street and so on.
Even 3.5 years later I'm still struggling with anger and bitterness about it all. Partly because if you defend yourself it's hard not to look a bit mad. I spoke to the people when I found out and told them it was all bullshit, but I think all it did was make them feel got at, I don't think they believed what I was saying to them.

My Mums lies about me are also about money, Shes made up that I want all her money (she doesnt even have any) and that I am bullying her to change her will for her house to all go to me (shes actually cut me out of it)
Shes also going on crying to people how she isnt allowed to be a nan because I cut her out, how the kids are desperate to see her that I am punishing them (they barely used to see her so havent any real ties to her) she has also said that I will spend all their inheritance that she is leaving them and that I am money hungry, I actually have more money than her so I dont understand why she says it.
She implies I spend their christmas or birthday money which I dont obviously, I dont understand where she gets all these lies from.
I love my kids so much and cant bare being made out I am a terrible mother.

Its so frustrating because there is nothing I can do I just have to put up with it.

Yes, it's the unfairness of it all. I want to scream at these people "but she's lying! I'm not like that!" but obviously you can't. It's all really awkward and uncomfortable and horrible even now, 3.5 years later. And I'm bitter at the people who bought her house interfering and gossiping about it all. I saw one of them today and ignored her because I just can't deal with it.

Know exactly how you feel, Sorry you are still feeling that 3.5 years on

It's better sometimes and worse at others. The less I see them the better, but that's not easy, we live in a smallish place and our kids are similar ages. I'm working on letting it go, but it's not easy.

@ellastellabella there's another thread on Mumsnet just now from a girl about your age, abusive family situation - I thought you might find it useful as there are people on that thread who are giving good, detailed advice.

Not popped on here for a while. My mother is still not talking to me, actively preventing my father from doing so too. That doesn't really bother me as it's a major favour she doesn't realise she's doing me but it's another example of her hypocrisy that makes me want to scream she spent years telling me how he prevented her from having relationships and friendships with family/other people.

My df is making an effort to phone every few weeks to speak to the dc. They're still playing games with them though, this time Easter had Ds as the favoured one. What they ended up sending was pretty much unsuitable for both of them so we've managed to even out what they can have and split between them.

I can't imagine what they're saying about me, though I'm guessing dh is being blamed hes not been involved but they always blame partners when they fall out with one of us. Last time anyone said anything I think I responded along the lines of yes, DM says things like that a lot. She usually changes her story within a few weeks though so I tend to pay it no mind. It shut the conversation down fairly rapidly.

Recently something major has happened in my life and I made a silly post about it on Facebook. My old headmaster posted telling me he was proud of me. I was chuffed to bits. Words I've never heard from my own DPs.

Congratulations Dobby!

I think that attitude of sort of laughing it off is probably the best idea, not that I would know because I basically have my mother custody of the family when I went NC - we live abroad and she anyway kept DF and me quite isolated from the extended family so as much as I might have wanted a relationship with them, I don't miss it. I reckon that as long as she can keep pretending to the family that we're in contact, or that DH is controlling or I'm ashamed of not having a big fancy job anymore or whatever bullshit reason she tells them for why I'm never there, she's unlikely to rock the boat by attempting contact again. It's a bit shit though, and must be so much worse for you guys who know people in common.

So... Here I am again. DP have still not bothered to meet 8 month old DC2. They live 10 hour away but apparently we should be going to them? With little kids? I'm not even surprised, just very sad. I suppose I should be grateful as it means less opportunity for DM to spread her narc venom all over the place when she is drunk but I suppose a part of me feels let down again that she has just stopped taking an interest again when she was interested for a couple of years, probably for the bragging rights. Why do I always feel like that poor little girl again when this happens? Don't dare say anything as I've been programmed to believe that her feelings are more important than mine when actually, she abandoned me when I was 12 and moved to a place with no phone, pre Internet. The only way I could contact her was letter and it took a week to get there,but the relationship still has to be completely in her terms. Don't even know why I am writing this. Just helps to get it out.

Hey @Gollumsprecious I'm sorry you're feeling that way, that sounds shit. I'm a long time lurker on here and I know what you mean, on the one hand, you know it's better that she's far away from your gorgeous kids, and on the other hand, you want her to see them and see how great they are. The thing is, however much she thinks she'd feelings are the most important, you're looking after your family, they're the most important. You're doing a great job. I know it's hard, but you are

*her, not she'd obviously not sure what happened there

Hi all,

I've heard lots of people recommend this thread but it's my first time on it. Not sure if it's restricted to problems with immediate family or toxic relations in general?

I don't want to start another MIL thread and apologies if I shouldn't be posting on here, but I'm just so stressed. I went NC with her in September after a particularly unpleasant episode. Saw her at Christmas, now she and FIL are coming to STAY with us next weekend, because they haven't seen DS (1yo) since December and I'm refusing to go to their house.

I'm posting here because I keep remembering all the kind things she's done for me, and am now convincing myself IABU to be NC with her, instead of focusing on all the insults and controlling behaviour that I've tolerated for nearly 10 years.

I'm not confrontational and neither can I bear to be in the company of people I've fallen out with. But I'm going to have to spend time with her next weekend and there's no way around it. I don't want to be talked round into being a dutiful/doormat DIL again.

I'd never stop her seeing her GC but I told DH that I get to choose who sees ME. DH is doing his best but he's in a horrible position too.

Thanks for letting me offload!

Hi all,

I've heard lots of people recommend this thread but it's my first time on it. Not sure if it's restricted to problems with immediate family or toxic relations in general?

I don't want to start another MIL thread and apologies if I shouldn't be posting on here, but I'm just so stressed. I went NC with her in September after a particularly unpleasant episode. Saw her at Christmas, now she and FIL are coming to STAY with us next weekend, because they haven't seen DS (1yo) since December and I'm refusing to go to their house.

I'm posting here because I keep remembering all the kind things she's done for me, and am now convincing myself IABU to be NC with her, instead of focusing on all the insults and controlling behaviour that I've tolerated for nearly 10 years.

I'm not confrontational and neither can I bear to be in the company of people I've fallen out with. But I'm going to have to spend time with her next weekend and there's no way around it. I don't want to be talked round into being a dutiful/doormat DIL again.

I'd never stop her seeing her GC but I told DH that I get to choose who sees ME. DH is doing his best but he's in a horrible position too.

Thanks for letting me offload!

Hi mamansnet

Who arranged their visit next weekend, it should be cancelled forthwith. Was your DH railroaded into agreeing to this, how did their proposed visit come about?. I would now cancel it and present with your DH a united front. You are no contact with these people for very good reason and you do not want emotionally unhealthy and abusive role models around your son either.

Why are you trying to convince your own self that you are being unreasonable here re no contact?. What kind things has she done for you exactly?. Is that your own fear, obligation and guilt talking here?. Controlling people like you describe are abusive and do not change. You've put up with them for 10 years as it is undoubtedly at great emotional cost to you.

What is your H's position here re his parents, does he still want to see them?. Who is his primary loyalty to now, it should be to you. No good will come of either of you seeing them and such people should be barred from seeing their grandson as well. What message does it send your child if you both as his parents are basically showing and telling him that you will tolerate abuse because you are related by marriage to them?. If they are too toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for your child as well. Why would you want such people to be around your son, your most precious resource at all?. They were not good parents to your DH when he was growing up and they have treated you as their DIL appallingly. You would not have tolerated this from a friend so do not put up with it from relatives. You do not have to set yourself on fire to keep others warm.

I would also suggest you read "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward as a starting point, your H should read Toxic Parents by the same author.

It is not your fault they are like this, neither you or your H made them this way. Their own families of origin did that. What if anything do you know about their family backgrounds, that often gives clues.

Hi everyone
Have been wondering how to put into words stuff that is going on with my mother for a while... I posted last year about an occasion when she hit my DS while I was out and got directed here but then things calmed down (ie I stopped contact)
She suffered mental ill health as a single parent to me and my DB but never got help for it. There were abusive behaviours but it always kind of got swept under the carpet, even by my DF and his wife.
She has always, always been difficult. It's all about her. I got back in touch with her as she sent loads of letters trying to explain how she was in the right and it is me that is 'full of hate' towards her. She basically moved to my town to be near me a few years ago even though, when she asked, I admitted I didn't want her to.
Since then she has tried to ingratiate herself to me by doing nice things for me and ds, and in her words not being needy.
Now she has health problems and I offered to help as she will need someone to get her home after the operation next week. Yesterday we went for a day out and she was acting really weird, attention seeking and dramatic. She reckoned a new heath problem had emerged which would stop her from being able to go to the operation. To me this just seemed like typically mental behaviour from her and I was trying to rise above it. (I might seem cold but I am trying to protect myself after being through a lifetime of this)
I really want to tell her to get someone else to help her from the hospital next week as I can predict it will escalate and I'll end up feeling like the bad daughter.
I'm concerned she will ask my DB though who has a really important job interview coming up and could potentially miss it if he's here helping her instead. Argh how do I draw boundaries here, I feel like I can't handle her being vulnerable and needy when she kept me from being safe as a child.

hi attila, thanks for the reply.

The weekend can't be cancelled. DH is very close to his parents (he's an only child) and I don't believe he's ever broken free of that close-knit dynamic when he's around them. He's a good H when we're alone, but when we're with his parents, he is the golden child and I'm the whipping girl. If he messes up, I'm the one at fault. MIL cannot tolerate any criticism of her son, constructive or otherwise, and expects me to join her in waiting hand and foot on DH and FIL when we're all together.

I really feel like DH regresses to being a child when he is with them. He likes visiting them for 2 or 3 weeks at a time, and has acknowledged it's because he doesn't have to lift a finger while he's there - even though I'm expected to. He is very different when we're home alone, cleaning, cooking and doing the ironing/shopping even though he works FT and I'm a SAHM.

After the September incident, I told him to take me to a hotel and he refused. Another incident followed a few days later, I said I wanted to fly home the same day, 24 hours early, and he wouldn't let me do it. Normally I'd have just gone anyway, but I was trying to prevent WWIII.

I overheard his parents shouting at him and when I asked him what had been said, he basically repeated their words: that there was a horrible atmosphere in the house and it was all my fault. He accepts now that he was just repeating their opinions and hadn't had thought about it properly for himself (not that that's an excuse).

MIL is capable of being extremely spiteful and DH can't or won't see it, probably because he's been conditioned into thinking it's normal. We talked about it the other night and he agreed that 'tactless' isn't strong enough a description of her, but he felt 'nasty' was too strong. I disagree.

She can be very warm and kind, for example going the extra mile to make me my favourite meals, or volunteering to help us move house when I was stressed and home alone with a 6 month old baby. But it's all on her terms. She totally took over the house move, shouting at me in front of the baby for something DH had failed to do. In our last place, I explicitly said I didn't want to paint until I'd had chance to think about colour schemes. We got the keys, I had to pop into work for a couple of hours, and when I get back she's busy painting, and angry with me for not being grateful.

She is forever criticising and belittling me, trying to get the upper hand. She's got a talent for finding your weak spot and using it to maximum effect. Over the years, I've had:

'You're nothing special.' (after just having been made redundant)
'Your silly diet is a fad, look, it obviously isn't working.' (when I'd already lost half my target)
'It's not half a stone you need to lose, it's more like one a half' (gee thanks)
'Your figure is fine on top but below the waist it's a catastrophe' (when asking if my job interview outfit looked ok)
'You think looking good means showing too much cleavage, it's embarrassing' (this from a woman who always sunbathes topless on family beaches)

I'm far from being the only family member who is sick of her, and she has form for pushing people so far as to break contact with her. But I don't see what I can do to avoid her entirely. I told DH that after the September incident, it was the closest I'd ever come to thinking that our marriage was in trouble. He now says that if MIL and I can't find a way to get along, our marriage is going to be in trouble anyway.

I've been reading Susan Forward and am going to finish it before they arrive. I hope I can find some answers in there as I fear that my relationship is heading for some dangerous territory.

OMG Mamans your DH and probably his dad are completely controlled by this woman. She is emotionally abusive but your DH is too scared to confront her and so makes a it a "MIL/DIL" problem, do not let this woman into the sanctuary of your home! You wanted to leave when you last saw her and DH wouldn't LET you??! This situation is outrageous. I agree with the previous poster, tell your DH MIL is not welcome. You need to get into marriage counseling asap, he is a wimp from being bullied all his life by a parent who doesn't accept boundaries.

He now says that if MIL and I can't find a way to get along, our marriage is going to be in trouble anyway.
He's basically saying if you don't roll over then he picks MIL. You can't change your DHs attitude but you can choose if you find that acceptable. To me, it wouldn't be.
Also have you got somewhere else you can decamp to if needs be over the visit?

mamansnet - how is your relationship with your own parents? If it is good, could you go there and get some support/let DH get one with it with his parents?

You don't mention them at all (as I wouldn't have as that wouldn't have been an option for me) which got me thinking...

I wonder if those of us who have difficult family backgrounds are more likely to marry someone with 'tricky' parents too? I did - completely unconsciously as I was unaware of the extent of the deep-seated dysfunction in DH's family. I wonder if I didn't spot it because there was no 'normal' comparison (apart from my friends lovely families) and then continued to let it hurt and anger me so much because I was so desperately disappointed (both my parents are dead now) and had poor boundaries.

It's a gift that just keeps giving - DH is very aware of what his parents are like but despite much stronger boundaries we still struggle with the last of the FOG, the effect that our respective and collective families have had on us and the horror that we've let some leak through to the next generation. That's what concerns me most - how we've let all this affect us as parents. It has. Worse still, despite the awareness I think it still does.

I wonder if those of us who have difficult family backgrounds are more likely to marry someone with 'tricky' parents too

Yes, I definitely think so, in fact I wrote a blog post about it.