"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi

I'm new to the thread and I hope you don't mind me jumping straight in.
My mother is very controlling.

We are 2 weeks post bad argument that happened because I couldn't do something exactly on her time frame ( I had a thread about it)

It's been a rocky 2 weeks and conversation this week has been strained. I did have a week of not talking to her. In the week I have been talking to her she has tried the earky morning calls , got huffy when I didn't want to talk about work and then got very stroppy when I wouldn't do as she said over a medical non issue.

Dd has not popped round to see her since this all happened.

The next argument has just happened because dd hasn't gone round. Apparently I must have told her not to and dd had a ' smirk ' on her face when she last saw her in mothers day. I asked her to stop but she carried on shouting at me so I said I was going to go and ended the phone call.

I've followed up with a text explaining that on some nights dd was busy and some nights mum was ( not that i should have to explain) and that i don't want to argue with her but she has to stop arguing every time something doesn't go the way she wants it.

This will mean my name is mud and ww3 will kick off.

I'm just exhausted by it.

Frami, I just read your post above mine. Im going to read back a bit but that resonates with me.

Quiddichcup I originally posted back in December 2015 on the dimentia thread which explains the whole background. DF was still alive then and I didn't know about Stately Homes. When DM starts I can't get her out of my head and I become somehow frozen. I have a presentation to write which I was just getting started but since confronting DM even the simplest task takes forever. All my usual decisiveness and organisational skills seem to vanish. I know this is because my mother does not value anything do and makes me question myself. I'm in my 50s but she can still turn me into a 5-year-old again.

I understand that too. I have no issue standing up to her but it's all consuming and I can't stop my brain going round and round in circles and know yet again it's going to take weeks and weeks for it to blow over. This is still the aftermath of the last argument when I didn't do anything wrong. Now I've done wrong again because dd hasnt popped round afterschool since that argument ( that she saw and so doesn't want to) and dd suposably smirked 2 weeks ago Which is also my fault. Apparently.

I was out last night but my Mum sent her "Flying Monkey" her brother to contact me. I had a feeling that would happen as we were at an event and someone posted a pic on social media. DM will doesn't use it and will tell everyone how she detests it but she gets others to tell her when I've been on there and uses it agains me. Mad as it seems I feel as if I'm being stalked. The number of times I get "I heard you were on FB" from someone who doesn't have a smart phone or computer! I had prewarning that it would all take off again last week when DU phoned "for a chat", first time in 6 months and managed to guilt me into phoning DM and she starts. I was not in last night and am feeling that I ought to ring DM, she's constantly wiring round in my head. I could pretend I didn't get the message last night (unreliable teenager etc) but that's likely to lead to worse. Don't want her attacking DD.

Framing what was the message? Just "ring me"? Is there any mileage in just delaying for a day or two and then phoning her, try and get her used to not being able to expect you to immediately jump to attention?

Did anyone hear the thing on Women's Hour on Radio 4 this morning? They were talking about coercive control, they had some people on to talk about it, were asking them their experiences, how it works etc. I think it's really good that we're starting to hear about it in the context of adult relationships, I've not heard anything in the mainstream media linking that behaviour to how the same people treat their children, but at least it slowly gives us a language in common with other people. They were teasing out things about how insidious it is, how they try to exert control over petty things, how they try to convince you and others that you're going mental, derail you with hours-long "arguments" and things like that. It's really hard to explain to normal people how that differs from normal parent/child conflict, but I hope that if people become familiar with the idea of coercive control between adults, it gives them a reference point.

toomuchtooold It's never that simple with my mother. If I got direct messages it would be fine. Instead everyone has to interpret her wants, get it wrong and your life is hell. I haven't rung her anyway as I've just been busy. Trouble is when I do I will be interrogated about the fact that I have been out twice this week (both events booked months in advance) when I don't have time to go to her. The fact that visit to DM needs at least 3 days and costs a lot of money (she lives in Ireland) is lost on her. To her not to do what she wants means you do not love her. On the hand she may not interrogate me but rather give me the verbal cold shoulder, one word monsyllabic answers which always make me feel like sh**t. I have really cut down the phone calls over the last few months which has contributed to this all kicking off again. (She doesn't phone me as she claims it's too expensive.) I got away with it but since she's been unwell she expects a call everyday which I haven't done and thereby made it worse and hence "Flying Monkey" has been instructed to call me. It wouldn't be so bad if it worked the same both ways. When DD2 had a really serious op she didn't get as much as a text from Nanny. When I was taken into hospital in an emergency she did manage a call, first words being "you don't sound ill"!

It all doubt very familiar. You're supposed to guess what she wants and then deliver it without being asked or anyone even admitting that she wanted something off you - it's supposed to be a spontaneous expression of your devotion because your family loves each other so much more than other families. Something like that? And if she's had to shatter the illusion so far as to complain to your uncle (or rather let it be known that she's pissed off) then she's already really annoyed at you. That sort of thing?
The only thing it has going for it is that you might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb - if she's already pissed off when the calls drop to three a week, there's no penalty for dropping them further

It is really quite amazing how one sided it is - like when you were in hospital. She's saving up her compassion for when you're really ill. You'll only be really ill though if her circle of friends witness it, being ill in England doesn't count, and TBH I think you should be glad because if you did get I'll on her watch then you'd soon have to manage her emotions around her daughter being ill as well as everything else. Do you know what I mean?

When she does the shitty one word answers and the guilt tripping I would be tempted to put her on speaker. Even tell her! "I'm getting the dinner on, I'll put you on speaker." It might make her pull up her behaviour if she knows that potentially your DD or DH can her her. And if not, having a witness can really take the sting out.

Hi it’s my first time on this thread. I do have a post in relationships about my parents and childhood which I got some very good advice from.

My problem is I’m not quite ready for nc I don’t have the balls tbh. I haven’t seen my parents since August as I have made up numerous excuses. We have spoken once a fortnight in the phone. I am seeing them on Sunday for the first time in a long time. They were going to come to my house but I can’t cope with that and they would really over stay their welcome. I am now going to their house. My Dh can’t make it so it’s just me and the children.

I need some advice on how to answer their rude comments. I know the first one will be that I have put weight on, the second will be a lecture to myself and my son about how he is not going to their local 6th form even though we live 4 hours away (they wanted him to move in with them!!!), thirdly how i am imasculating my husband by driving there and back in my own. I will also be told how lucky I am that my husband has stuck by me for 20 years! I mean wtf?? He hasn’t stuck by me for anything we met, fell in love, brought a house, had a child, got married, moved away, had 2 more children and have lived happily ever after (as much as the next person if you know what I mean).

I’m dreading it already and I really can’t get away with not going unless it snows 🤞🤞 how would you handle the questions/nit picking/lectures/rudeness?

toomuchtooold Your answer is exactly how my mother is. We do not have a speaker phone but we are going out to buy one over the weekend. DM is not like this with my sister with whom I used to be very close, we were driven apart when DF was ill. Dsis lives nearby and is a geriatric nurse so did get called upon a lot but it was still her choice. I arranged many times for various help, nursing, taxi service, cleaner you name it which we would pay for but DM always turned it down. The real cause of DM current spat is not the illness but that she has hit upon this plan that she will sign her home over to me and Dsis. DM will live in it till she finds another smaller place and Dsis and I can share profit. I was not consulted on this and have refused. This is what makes me such an awful daughter. People think it's great, idea "take the money" but it won't work like that. I will end up trying to maintain this huge old house while living in another country. (DH is very good at DIY it's been remarked upon how she uses him for stuff when he's there.) Meanwhile DM will get older and will be pressuring for us to move in a mind her. She has form for making plans to move/ finding the perfect house, then changing her mind. Gifts from DM come at a price, made that mistake once am never doing it again.

LollyPop No advice here just sympathy and support. I get similar. Not been near my mother since DF died last July. It's so draining when you are with them trying to find something to talk about that won't start them off. Are you able to get out at all when you are there? I try to find excuses to escape means I usually have to face interrogation after but it does give some relief.

Thank you @frami

I’ve nowhere I could go to get away from it. I’ve discussed it with Dh and if they start on my son about the college - they are desperate for him to move there and live with them. I have no idea why they would even think it’s something we have considered I will walk out. I can take shit off them but I will not allow them to start treating my child like it.

Lollypop this Captain Awkward post has some good stuff about deflecting weight comments...

Generally, the grey rock method is a useful way of getting past difficult topics. They won't be pleased you're not taking the bait, but they won't be able to do much about it.

I think generally you want to try and avoid justifying any of your/your DC's choices - it gives them the feeling they're justified in questioning you, and it gives them more detail to take apart. This is where flat answers like the Mumsnet classic "it doesn't/it didn't work for us" comes into play, or if they say you've put on weight/other criticism, you just go "oh really?" and then just stop talking. Like I say, they won't like it, but they won't be able to do anything about it without being openly rude. And if they are rude, that's your cue to leave!

Sending lots of goodies cakes and drinks for Easter

Had a nightmare week & having a nightmare day.

It's true you can't choose your family...

The peace has been shattered by the arrival, by recorded delivery, of cheques for the twins' birthdays.

This is after mother decided she didn't want anything to do with me (after I had already advised her of our decision to be nc).

So; the cheques will not be cashed. As far as I am concerned it is game playing. We are the gatekeepers to our children while they are at home and under 18.

To reiterate the point, the cards and cheques will be shredded and returned.

To reiterate the point, the cards and cheques will be shredded and returned

My advice is to shred them and then put them in the bin. Sending them back is communication, and any communication is a reward. Just quietly bin them.

Hi all. I'm new to this thread. I'm really struggling with my mother at the moment.

I am in the middle of separating from my H. My mother has a history of overinvolving herself and when I don't conform to her expectations (I went to a midweek concert a few weeks ago and H minded the kids) she completely withdraws. She told me my behaviour was outrageous even though myself and H had pre-arranged he would mind the kids. This time I've stood up to her and we aren't talking.

Bit of background. I was always cast as the problem child. Apparently I was a difficult baby and an attention seeker. Them labels have followed me throughout my life. My mother criticises everything I do, from my parenting right down to my choice of (lovely) friends. One recent example is my daughter has been diagnosed with dyspraxia. All the health professionals have praised me for noticing it at a young age. My mother said there is nothing wrong with my daughter and she is the way she is because of her bad start in life (I moved back to my home town when she was 3 weeks old as I was homesick and had PND).

My father just does what she does and she has now got my sister on her side so she has isolated me from the family.

I feel so desperately lonely through this separation although my friends are amazing.

NK1c... No advice just sympathy and a hand hold. I've come to think that the loneliness you describe and which many of us experience is actually guilt. Being a "difficult" baby is a common"fault" of those of us with toxic mothers. Bet your Dsis was perfect?
Also bet your Mum would never admit that some of the difficulties might have been of her own making ie that the first child is always harder because you are learning to parent. Like yours, my DM dislikes all my friends and DH of 35 years standing because she did not choose them. (Dsis was introduced to her DH by my mother he of course is wonderful!).
Ignoring illness/disability also seems to be a common thread (see my previous postings and answers I received. No 2 situations are the same and although I can't offer any advice others on here will be able to help. You've definitely posted in the right place.

Thanks so much Frami for your lovely reply. Oh yes my brother and sister were perfect babies and perfect kids. My friends are so wonderful and supportive but my mother is against some of them because they are single, gay or because their time keeping isn't the best. She is so judgemental.

Her reaction to my daughter's disability is incredibly hurtful because she is implying it's down to my parenting rather than her just having a disability.

NK1c.. my mother's reaction to DD2's scoliosis was to blame it on my DH "nothing like that in our family". This BTW is her standard response, with any sort or long term illness, disbility or SEN connected to the family. Anything I get is down to my lifestyle or made up. It's hard but try to ignore it. Reading the answer posted by Toomuchtooold to one of my posts. She got it exactly right.
Stupid and judgemental as they are at least your mother gives you a reason why she dislikes your friends. Mine just gives them the cold shoulder and talks in monosyllables. Again see Toomuch's comment. In DM opinion only family matters which means herself.

I also identify with the weird attitudes to illness. My dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's after a long and thorough investigation of his symptoms over more than a year. When he died my mother was still trying to bully him into remembering things. She broke with a member of our extended family because he asked whether my dad had been diagnosed (my grandma also had Alzheimer's and this family member was, along with my mother, heavily involved in my gran's care). I only had my asthma finally diagnosed the year I turned 40, because my mother refused the asthma clinic referral I was given age 13, saying that the GP was only doing it to try and shame her into not smoking in the house. Truth is negotiable, and everything is about them.

Hi, sorry for just jumping in here without a proper introduction. I’m just off a nightshift and need to sleep but I wondered if any of you could help with a question I posted yesterday. Unfortunately it didn’t get any replies and thought it better to ask you folks so I’ve posted it below.

TIA

Just wondering if anyone can recommend a book or website that deals specifically with sons of narcissistic mothers please?

It’s for my brother who is finding it had to set boundaries where my narcissist mother is concerned and whilst I feel I can help him a lot in understanding her behaviour I think he might get more help from a book. The only books I know of are mostly concerning daughters of narcissists.

I’ve found some good recommendations on the Stately homes thread for myself and am currently listening to an audiobook - Adult children: the secrets of a dysfunctional family.

It might help to point out my mother is a recovering alcohol but neither of us has ever seen her drunk, she’s been sober since I was 4yo. I’m wondering if a book on adult children of alcoholics would help but am thinking maybe not because we never had an active alcoholic mother.

Hope someone can help and thanks in advance.

Flamingo I can't think of anything specific but I wonder if your brother might want to have a look at Richard Grannon (Spartan Life Coach) on YouTube? He does a lot of stuff about narcissistic abuse and, as a bloke, I guess his perspective might be a bit more useful? Sorry I can't be more help!

Ella, your mother shouldn't be hitting you. I would advise you to get onto Childline (assuming you're in the UK), and tell them about the issues with your mother. Start with the hitting. It may not be the thing that bothers you most right now, but it will probably ring the most alarm bells with them. I don't know what they will be able to advise for you but if there is help available, they will know. Also consider whether you have any options for getting out yourself, through going to your dad (although if you feel that there are reasons that that wouldn't work, respect that feeling), planning for university away from home, or finding training or an apprenticeship that comes with accomodation or a requirement to live away. And if you can't get away right now, my advice for coping is first to find reasons to be out of the house as much as possible - do all your revision in the local library, think about joining a sports team or something like that. I basically lived in the local library when I was your age. When you're at home, try to be a grey rock so that your mother doesn't learn your wants and weaknesses - it will be harder for her to sabotage you then, it does sound like she might have deliberately sabotaged that thing with your friends. If she's like my mother, she will be looking to isolate you from your friends in an effort to keep you under control (and as you've hit 16 and started to become more confident and closer to adulthood, you may have noticed her ramping up the crazy behaviour - it was probably more peaceful say 3 or 4 years ago, you probably were easier to control at that time. Please feel free to hang out on the thread and if we can help at all, we'd be happy to.