"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

First time not visiting (or even talking to) my mum on mothers day.

Heartbroken

aliasjoey

Its very low and indeed abusive of your mother to use your niece in such a manner; the girl has no idea at all that she is being manipulated by your mother. However, I would block the niece contacting your DD because such text bullying should not be at all tolerated.

Continue not to talk to your mother and further lower all contact to a point of zero. Neither you or your own family unit get anything at all positive from your mother in terms of a relationship. If she is a narcissist it is not possible to have a relationship with them in any case.

Why do you feel heartbroken Lilsquish?. What's happened?

Yes, sister is the flying monkey. I have examined my feelings and am now taking steps to further remove likelihood of contact where damage can be done to my children via the FM. Sadly this means giving up something I love but I can help in another area in similar roles so not too much trouble. Better this than the children being used as flying monkeys too. Because that would be inevitable.

I have woken on this wonderful day to no guilt about mother. I had a pang of sadness when card shopping for mil but it didn't last long and it did nothing but strengthen my resolve to stay away from the dysfunction.

@aliasjoey - using the cousins is the sort of thing I can see my sister doing. It is certainly out of order but sadly your niece is only 13 and won't be able to see the situation for what it is. Granny will of course plied her with 'oh it's so sad that teen joey is too scared to come on holiday with us, she's going to miss out on x y and z. She is old enough to be told, and to understand, that messages from granny are not to be passed on to teen joey but she should tell you instead. At least that way you can be gatekeeper from the flying monkeys being aimed at your daughter.

Too long to explain in detail Attila.
I do have a thread in relationships about it.

But cant link coz im using the app.

In short the NC feels like everyone elses decisions, not mine.

But this might be the guilt talking as sometimes i do feel its the right decision.

But the guilt and sadness is so intense.

Lilsquish

I have now read the other thread you were referring to.

Thank you for the flowers xx

I know my DM isn't as bad as some of the mothers described on here, but I've been having more issues with her recently. We went away for a lovely holiday with my DSis and her family, our DDs love to play with their cousins and it gave DSis and me lots of time to talk.

When my DM found out, she went ballistic that we hadn't invited her to join us but took our lovely 19 year old French au pair with us (long story, she's a friend of a friend who was looking for a chance to improve her English and we offered). My mother's jealousy really shocked me. I knew she was going to be with them the following weekend and we had plans to see her ourselves later. She'd been back for a brief break from her work in Africa and wanted to spend time with her DGCs and would have loved to watch them all play together.

She also thought we should have given her a lift back home.

The holiday just wouldn't have been the same if we'd had her with us. And I wouldn't have felt right about leaving our au pair behind, she had a lovely time and all the children loved her.

That made me rethink plans for our wedding anniversary. We were going to go away for 3 nights leaving one of our DDs at home with the au pair and my mother (DD1 will be at camp), but I wouldn't trust her not to make up an accusation about our au pair, which she has done against my MIL before.

She's also been emotionally abusive to us through our childhood as I've said before. I no longer want her around my DDs when I'm not there as I just don't trust her. And last year our social worker warned me about trusting her, as she'd proved herself incapable of keeping us safe as children.

I've managed to make it about DD2's clinginess so that we're only going away for one night and therefore she can stay in Africa longer blah blah.

I constantly find myself at a loss to know whether I want her in our lives or not. I wouldn't want to think of her alone, and she's my DDs' Granny etc.

I could do with some advice here, she always leaves me confused.

Hi lizzie

I am not at all surprised that you decided not to take your mother on holiday with you given her emotionally abusive behaviours over the years.

re your comment:-

"And last year our social worker warned me about trusting her, as she'd proved herself incapable of keeping us safe as children"

Think your social worker was right; she cannot be at all trusted. Your mother is indeed incapable and only thinks about her own self and self interest here (this is probably also why she does the charity work she does; its certainly not done out of any altruistic need for those people but for them to meet her own needs for narcissistic supply).

A good rule of thumb here is that if a relative is too toxic and or otherwise too difficult for you to deal with, its the same deal for your kids also.

Your mother I would argue has not fundamentally altered since your own childhood. When has she ever apologised or accepted any responsibility for her actions?. She is not alone anyway and if she was it would serve her right frankly. Its not down to you to fill any emotional voids she has and its not your fault she is the ways she is either because you did not make her that way. She being the kids grandmother as well is no good reason to have her at all in your lives either; better to have no grandparents than abusive ones.

Children need positive and life affirming influences, not abusive drains like your mother is.

Thank you, @AttilaTheMeerkat I do think my DM would have been better off staying single/child free and pursuing her own dreams. She wasn't cut out to be a parent. (She was also a victim of abuse herself.)

She does say sorry sometimes, but it's when turning on the waterworks and it's never clear what she's saying sorry for. I end up having to comfort her, which is exhausting.

And it's not really now as if my DDs have much of a relationship with her anyway, they're not really bothered about seeing her.

@Lilsquish, I haven't read your full thread but from the op you are protecting your own family. If your parents cannot see this, then they don't deserve to be a part of your lives.

You are ensuring your child has a safe home. It might not be your choice to be nc with them, but it's a small price to pay to ensure your child's safety.

Aliasjoey bear in mind that you don't actually have to do anything right now. Your mother booked that holiday on her own initiative and she can deal with the consequences. You're absolutely right to say that your daughter doesn't have to give a reason other than "I don't want to".

Along those lines Lizzie, regarding getting out of your mother looking after your children, if I were you in the future I would try to avoid using a polite excuse about not wanting to put her to any trouble, because it puts the ball back in her court and risks her replying "oh it's no trouble/I'd rather see my grandchildren than have an extra day in Africa" etc. Just a flat "no thanks, we've made arrangements" or the old Mumsnet favourite "that doesn't work for us, sorry" is a lot harder to argue with. Appreciate that this time you've had to come up with an excuse for changing a previously agreed arrangement.

Hellos and and to everyone... it'll be over soon. My Facebook is like an explosion in Hallmark right now.

Thank you, @toomuchtooold I thought things were getting better now that I've asserted myself more when dealing with her. She's been on her best behaviour with me. But I was shaken by her outburst of jealousy and realised I was being totally unfair on the au pair and my DDs hence why I used DD2's clinginess as an excuse and changed our plans.

I would feel mortified if my mother tried to get a 19 year old girl into trouble, but I wouldn't put it past her sadly. Her attitude to her coming on holiday with us was frankly shocking. Why couldn't she just enjoy reading about it on Facebook and asking us about it afterwards??

@Lilsquish I have just read your other thread. My family issues also relate to child safeguarding, so I know how shattering it is. I do think it is better to stand up rather than toe the family line, your responses not only protect your child but also ( in a weird roundabout way) your DN's. As much as your family wants to pretend it's not happening your absence from the family doesn't let them forget. Stay strong

Thank you stars and mini xx

Hello all, can really get why yesterday was a mixture of emotions for many here. I haven't posted for a while. My DM is classic narc and my sister lives with her whilst I love away with my DH and 2 children. I deal with the relationship by keeping DM at arms length generally and Sister tends to try and please DM and be the flying monkey, always texting and reporting back to the point where I'm scared to say anything.
DM normally likes orchids and I had tried to find some online before Mother's Day but had no luck which I told DM. She said this was ok and perhaps it was best to buy flowers after Mother's Day when it was cheaper. 4 days later afterI had ordered a bouquet, Sister texted contact details for florist selling the orchids DM wanted. She said DM had told her to give me those details that day. I explained I had made other arrangements and Sister demanded to know what flowered which I wouldn't tell her. Spoke to DM and she was on about it being ok that we weren't meeting up and not acknowledging the present issue. DH has said that 'it's Not a debt' and I explained that I didn't like being given orders for Mother's Day...
What complicates matters is I have recently had an op and DM stayed with us, looking after GC whilst I was in hospital. We got on well and I think she likes me being weak and dependent as nasty as that sounds but I was genuinely sorry to see her go home. All her best bits were obvious and it was nice to have that relationship I've craved.
Now though, I get this text today

Hi PurpleDaisy. Just wondering what the chances are for you and me having the day and over night stay some time and somewhere? We never did get around to doing it, just a little bit of me and you time. What do u think? X:-D

We haven't talked about this for ages and every time DH has asked about the same for us she's not been keen at all. She did do it Jan last year.
I just get the distinct feel of 'you owe me' but I could be being a cow/unreasonable. Just think the timing seems strange? I'm only 2 weeks post op and not back at work yet.
What do you think?

Oh no, have I killed the thread?!

No that's not the case, @PurpleDaisy2114 it just goes quiet on here every now and then. I've only just seen your previous post. Really, your DM and sister shouldn't be worrying about what flowers you ordered as a Mother's Day gift or about you having a night away. You're recovering from an op so they should be sending you flowers right now, especially as you're a mum too and Mother's Day is a special day for you too.

Mother's Day shouldn't be something to use as a weapon to beat you up with, I agree that she's a classic narc.

to you for Mother's Day and for a speedy recovery.

PurpleDaisy

Have only just seen your post also. This thread does get bursts of activity then goes quiet again; you have not killed the thread at all.

Your mother is playing Manipulation 101 here with that text message to you. Do not respond. Its very much a case here from her of you owe me.

The relationship you want with your mother is a relationship you will never have; she keeps on moving the goalposts and she has trained you and your sister well to serve her. You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Your mother does like you being weak and dependent because she likes also to be in charge and needed.

Would suggest you also look at the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

I would keep yourself and all your family unit well away from your narcissistic mother and your golden child flying monkey sister (who is purely acting in her own self interest here) from now on in. It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and your mother will simply use your kids as her personal narcissistic supply. They will be emotionally harmed in not too dissimilar ways as to how you and your sister have been. Narcissistic parents make out for being deplorably bad grandparent figures.

I wish you also both a good and speedy recovery from your op. Typical also of such disordered of thinking people like your mother and sister to act like this. Its very low of them to do such a thing but not atypical.

If you do reply to your mother then send something like No that does not work for us. Do not have either of them care for your children in any way ever again.

You certainly do not need a bit of so called you and me time from your mother. She is a past master of come closer so I can hurt you again.

Thanks Attila and Lizzie. DH is upset with her whilst I'm a bit bewildered, trying to work out wha exactly is going on or perhaps knowing exactly what is going on but being incredulous about it. She offered to take me home with her when she left after op as kids were arguing etc and there seemed to be the undercurrent of she can look after me better than anyone else which I perhaps fell into. She is good at looking after family who is ill whereas DH did struggle bless him. She bought me flowers and card after op.
During a phone call DM slipped up, saying' I had to be, no I wanted to be there for you' regarding her being here during op. DH practically begged for her to come and it was difficult as op kept being cancelled. The day before op she didn't even know what op I was having! She also asked me before op whether DH would let her come to hospital as she 'didn't want to be stuck at home all the time'. I told her to discuss this with DH!
I'm not sure I can bring myself to NC and GC do love her but I'm always vigilant of what dynamics are going on. DD is in a phase of calling everyone stinky, lazy etc (she's 7 with additional needs) and DM can't deal with that at all. She asked me why she does it last week.
I have looked at that website before but not for a while, it's so painful isn't it to confront?
Thanks again for your replies

PurpleDaisy

Many adult children of narcissists struggle with erecting boundaries with their parents. You certainly do. Feelings from fear to guilt prevent them from putting a firm barrier between them and their parent. Also your mother has in all likelihood never really encouraged you to develop or have boundaries at all, she does see you as an extension of her.

Your DH is right for being upset with her. He did not grow up thankfully in a narcissistic family structure, small wonder therefore he is upset. You are still very much mired in your own FOG re your mother, a state that she herself has brought about upon you as an adult. Also guilt is not your best mentor here either. Nor is bewilderment.

Your mother just wanted to swoop in and do the aren't I a good person everyone look at me act that many narcissists do for adulation and attention. The flowers and card she brought you post op was all part of that, you are really bit players with her at the centre of her universe. She has made your health problems and your family unit all about her and her needs. You need alternative childcare arrangements going forward, your mother is not a suitable person for any of you to be at all around. These disordered of thinking people never act unless there is something in it for them.

Re your comment:-
"I'm not sure I can bring myself to NC and GC do love her but I'm always vigilant of what dynamics are going on. DD is in a phase of calling everyone stinky, lazy etc (she's 7 with additional needs) and DM can't deal with that at all. She asked me why she does it last week".

Your mother does not love your children and she does not want to understand your child's additional needs.

Your H and you love your children, they are your most precious resource. She sees your kids as tools to be used and a source of narcissistic supply. They will be treated in ways not too dissimilar as to how you and your sister were harmed; that same golden child and scapegoat dynamic could be played out here with your children. She could also very well favour one over the other already. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she is not a good influence around you or your kids now. By manipulating your children, your parent can carry on the emotional abuse that he has pummeled you with all your life. What better abuse than to turn the children you love so much against you?.

Your DM sounds like mine, @PurpleDaisy2114 she also suddenly gets all overbearing when I'm not well, takes over and bosses me around. It's the way she's always been with all of us, my DB in particular. She suddenly becomes the concerned parent. I think Attila is right, that they enjoy the attention. Whereas I hate the fussing and just want her to leave me be.

I never thought of it as being narcissistic though it does make sense. Then when it goes wrong, it's all 'oh I'm so sorry, I got it all wrong.' Once again, all about her.

Like your DH, mine finds her exhausting.

Hi there! It's the first time I posting here. Ive only found this message board and I am still trying to go through all of the messages - it is very helpful to read about how you all have been dealing with your difficult families. So, thank you!

I feel like it's probably best that I familiarise myself a bit more with the thread to see how it works etc, so I don't break any rules, but I was wondering if you had any thoughts or ideas about a very specific question I have been struggling with at the moment, which is that of guilt.

How to reconcile the feelings of anger (so much anger at times!) about your mother's carelessness, selfishness, and the hurt you've been put through over the years, and guilt about making yourself scarce? My mum and dad have a very codependent relationship and they are constantly at each other's throats. I live abroad, so does my sister. They are alone. I didn't use to care about their lives much, but as they age it's really starting to get to me. I feel terrible at the thought of them alone but at the same time, I don't want to talk to my mum. Nothing good ever comes out of it. She only talks to me to complain about my dad, or my sister, or her health, or whatever else.

Sorry! I already made this super long and I haven't even introduced myself or anything. In any case, I would really appreciate your thoughts on this if anyone can relate to it :)