"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Like in an OAPs home toomuch ?
It would drive me totally insane. It would be worse than the threats my parents made to put me in a children’s home. In fact I actually wish they had done that. Nothing could have been as bad as living with them.
My mother is in sheltered housing. She likes talking to all the other old people. It’s just not for me.
All my husband does for me is cook meals and when I can I do a lot of batch cooking and put it in the freezer. Takes me to medical appointments. Buys food. Washes clothes. I try to wear things for a long time so I don’t make much washing. He hoovers. Looks after GC but I don’t feel guilty about that as it his decision to have him. He promised we would both rearrange our work to accommodate him. It was a lie. I had to give up my job. The only proper one that made me feel good about myself I had ever had.
Lost most of my friends then. Nobody wants to see you with a very, very difficult, destructive child in tow.The few remaining disappeared after I became ill. None were longstanding as moved so much because of his job.
I buy everything I need online so he doesn’t have to do that much for me.
If for any reason he no longer does anything I will accept help from my children but I really can’t inflict myself on them otherwise.
It’s OK to say it wouldn’t be inflicted but that’s how I feel. Knowing something is wrong and feeling it are quite different.
It is hard to build yourself up in my situation. I have contacted NAPAC to ask why they didn’t reply to me. In the warmer weather I can go to my work shed in the garden and phone from there.

Hello all, haven't posted in a while. In very brief terms by story centres around neglect both emotionally and physically. Hairebo I share lots of your feelings and emotions, you are not alone. My most recent posts were about confrontation with my m, lots of people counselled against confronting but I really feel I had to because I really needed to say I was worth better. I think I needed to for my self esteem. I did it, I was met with the victim response mostly but also acknowledgment that she was wrong. Visited recently got given this hilarious quote plate about mothers being you best friend. WTF!!, does she really believe that fixes things, she does doesn't she?

Hi, I’m NC with parents and sisters, I reached a point a couple of years back where I realised I’d had enough. I was doing ok but recent contact with a family member suggesting I have destroyed our family and need to start building bridges has really set me back and left me doubting my reasons for going NC and feeling guilty and horrible. It also brought home to me the fact that family will never, ever look back and realise that they did behave badly and need to apologise. I think that’s one of the hardest things isn’t it? Realising that the apology you wish for is never ever going to come and that all you’ll ever hear from them is more blame.

Hi cremeeggs

re your comment:-
"I was doing ok but recent contact with a family member suggesting I have destroyed our family and need to start building bridges has really set me back and left me doubting my reasons for going NC and feeling guilty and horrible".

You need to ignore this flying monkey and block their contact with you because this person is really acting as your family of origin's enabler. This individual is not at all interested in hearing your side of things and is only acting in their own self interest.

pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/07/the-narcissists-flying-monkeys/ is worth a read

Thanks for that link Atilla. I've already read quite a bit about flying monkeys but that particular article sums it up really well. It has helped me today because I've been feeling the same as cremeeggs since yesterday when my 3 year old DS asked for my mother after 4 months of NC. Been doubting my decision again and posted a letter to DM on the Stately Annexe thread which helped. That link you posted has helped to remind me I'm doing the right thing.

whistler I'm not even sure that what I was thinking of exists in the UK - here in Germany they have a lot of "Reha" clinics in the mountains - originally TB sanatoriums I suspect, nowadays they do all sorts of physical therapies, counselling, as well as straightforward care for respite.
I know where you're coming from though, I think. It's like although you would love to be able to change things, actually life is at a sort of optimum - not a very comfortable optimum, but any changes would make things harder, take energy that you don't have. And I'm really sorry.

zebrano

Reading your post, I have to confess that when I got to the bit when your dad said he was cutting contact I thought "don't the door hit your arse on the way out." From an outsider's perspective you don't owe him a bloody thing. I would be really glad for you if he kept to his word and broke contact with you but I strongly suspect he'll be back on the phone whenever his huff runs its course and he needs something.
I think from the perspective of people like your father, it's very hard to hear a family member set a healthy boundary. They're more used to repeating dysfunctional patterns of communication, shouting and screaming, silent treatment etc and they really don't like it when that changes. He can see you've got his number and that you're communicating from a place of strength, and he won't like that at all.
And you know, I think that you are completely within your rights to stop contact with your father for your own wellbeing, but for his wellbeing, it's probably for the best as well, because he does need to be dealt with in a boundaried way - he shouldn't be in a position to verbally or physically abuse the people who care for him, it won't do him any favours either - and being cared for by professionals who have policies for this sort of stuff will be far better.

The guilt may be a symptom of complex PTSD, and I hope the EMDR will help with it, but I bet also that being away from your father will help it because he won't be able to manipulate you into feeling sorry for him. It sounds like you have a very good handle on how all that stuff works, why he does what he does, but don't underestimate the effect of him on you, even when you know what he's doing. You should listen to your body - that exhaustion is your gut instinct, telling you to stop putting up with this stuff.

starsearching I wish we had a "massive eyeroll" emoji. I guess there must be people who subscribe to that sugar-sweet mum cult bullshit who are decent people... just that I never seem to run into any of them

Thank you for posting that link on complex PTSD, @toomuchtooold there's no doubt it's all been true of me, and, I think, my DB and DSis as well. It's very sad because being in contact with my DM is obviously not helping me move on with my life and be a healthy parent for my DDs, but it's hard because she herself is a victim, though I know she's never going to get help herself.

It helps to understand the dynamics in my family but sadly I don't know what to do for the best.

Thanks toomuchtooold
You're spot on, my counsellor at work has said I've likely got C-PTSD. Regularly have emotional flashbacks of some of the more violent domestics and of course the suicide attempt that I witnessed, plus lots of the other symptoms.

Having a lot of ups and downs with it all at the moment. I know in my heart of hearts that he's never considered my feelings, he's always been wrapped up in himself. And the lying!! You know when he's lying because his mouth moves!

However I'm still feeling very low, guilty, thinking of him sitting there stuck in the chair with pictures of my kids all around. It's like a form of Stockholm syndrome or something. I'm just a big ball of pain right now.

I had a long chat with my DSis today. Apparently our DM was upset that we took our lovely 19 year old au pair from France with us when we went for our visit and didn't give her a chance to join us for that holiday so that she could enjoy seeing her DGDs playing together.

Did she really expect us to leave our French au pair in our house alone and not offer her the chance of a holiday in the UK? (We lnew DM had already planned to spend the following weekend with my DSis and her family.

It would have been a totally different holiday if my DM had been involved. We had a lovely time together without her.

For Fucks Sake. I mean, for actual fucks sake.

Is it any wonder I drink.

Mother's Day Mother's Day Mother's Day, it's like a special day of woe.

My mother phoned my DH yesterday asking if she could take my kids on holiday. Never mentioned it to me.

After discussion last night, DH and I agreed that they could go if they wanted to. They didn’t want to.

Today, mother phoned DH several times at work, but he was in meetings all day (he did email me, asking me to phone her) She did not phone me.

After work, I went to walk the dogs, and when I got home mother was Skyping the kids. I stupidly assumed that if she needed an answer quickly, she’d have asked the kids if they wanted to go. Later found out that she just made oblique references to ‘needing a holiday!’ Instead of actually saying where and when.

So an hour later phoned me (finally!) to say that as she hadn’t had an answer she’d gone ahead and booked it! When I said that I wasn’t sure the kids wanted to go, she got really annoyed, I think she was trying to do a fait accompli because she believes my kids need to be —bullied— cajoled into going.

God I’m so furious. Poor DH getting all that hassle. Poor kids caught in the middle. I know I should have called her, but didn’t realise she needed an immediate answer.

I haven't managed to read all of this yet but ping!
So many things resonating just now, just from the first couple of pages.
Prompted to read after another phone call with cats bum face mother and feeling confused and upset about what I've done wrong this time. And deciding it's time to get on big girl pants and treat her like I would any other adult who is continually rude/manipulative/fucking weird.
Incidentally I looked at the NPD checklist, tick, tick, tick. Need to think about that one. Wow.

I would also read the website called Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers if you have not already done so. It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

margarita yes, ‘manipulative’ - that’s the word!

As for treating her like any other adult... well, that is the hard bit.

Good afternoon. I am enjoying the peace and quiet of family who have decided to go NC with me (after I'd informed them of my decision that I would not be speaking with them until issues had been resolved).

I am however finding it hard with my sister. She has chosen to do a half-assed attempt at being nice after initially telling me I needed to speak to the parents and sort it out.

I am torn between whether she is doing those because she genuinely wants to have decent contact with my family and hers, or because she thinks it will help me to come to my senses. I suspect it is the latter.

Hi Minisok

re your comments in quote marks:-

"Good afternoon. I am enjoying the peace and quiet of family who have decided to go NC with me (after I'd informed them of my decision that I would not be speaking with them until issues had been resolved)"

Enjoy the peace and quiet, they have done you a huge service here. Their issues with you will never ever be resolved though because they want to keep you in your assigned role within your dysfunctional family of origin. They do not want to resolve anything, you cannot reason with the crazy.

"I am however finding it hard with my sister. She has chosen to do a half-assed attempt at being nice after initially telling me I needed to speak to the parents and sort it out".

Your sister is acting as the flying monkey here who has been sent in by parents to do their bidding. Her opinion needs to be roundly ignored as she is not interested in hearing your side of things. She is purely acting in her own self interest here.

"I am torn between whether she is doing those because she genuinely wants to have decent contact with my family and hers, or because she thinks it will help me to come to my senses. I suspect it is the latter"

You are right, its the latter. Its not you, its them. All your family of origin are deeply dysfunctional.

Thanks @Attila and @aliasjoey.
Will look the links and read the rest of the thread.

I think my lightbulb moment was recently - I just can't imagine ever behaving like that towards my own children no matter what I had been through myself.

Even just skimming through so many things are clicking. I feel so dumb not to have realised before now.

Hi, could I have a bit of hand holding? I almost had three weeks peace since blocking my dad for the first time ever. Yesterday though, the flying monkey came in the form of my dad's neighbour. "Your dad wants contact with you, he hasn't done anything wrong etc". This had a really bad effect on me and I was feeling in quite a panic. The only way I can describe it is that I felt I was being dragged back into the lion's den! DH stepped in and sent a very firm text to the neighbour telling him not to be the middleman, and only to contact DH (and only him) in an emergency.
I've calmed down a bit this morning but the feelings of guilt and sadness are back. I just want peace, do I not deserve any peace? Feel like I've been put on this earth solely to be an emotional football for this man. Got my first EMDR session on Wednesday but feeling despondent that it can help me right now. Thanks all.

Hi, could I have a bit of hand holding? I almost had three weeks peace since blocking my dad for the first time ever. Yesterday though, the flying monkey came in the form of my dad's neighbour. "Your dad wants contact with you, he hasn't done anything wrong etc". This had a really bad effect on me and I was feeling in quite a panic. The only way I can describe it is that I felt I zebrano,

hand hold and

You have blocked your dad for good reason and his neighbour who has indeed acted both out of turn and as a flying monkey should be roundly ignored. This neighbour was and is not interested in hearing your side of things and just wants to be in your dad's good books. Awful people like your dad too are adept at getting easily manipulated individuals like his neighbour to do their bidding for them.

Your DH sent the right message back to this person also. Progress re yourself has been made here because you did recognise the neighbour as a flying monkey.

You do not have to be anyone's emotional football and you do deserve peace. Hopefully your EMDR session this week will help you go forwards.

attila a great response to zebrano there. It rang bells for me, as we’re in the midst of a similar situation here. My mother has been using my niece to try and guilt-trip us into doing what she wants. And you’re so right about people like that being good at manipulating others!

I don’t suffer too much from FOG. Very little Fear, and absolutely no Obligation. Unfortunately I make up for that with double helpings of Guilt. I do have tons of Anger though. I have FAG.

Hell, I’m probably outed anyway, and it might help to write it all down.

My mother asked if DD (15) wanted to go on holiday with her. She didn’t say she needed to know urgently, and then despite us not having given her the go-ahead, booked it the very next day.

DD really doesn’t want to go. Apart from all the usual reasons (getting her period, rendering the whole beach-and-pool holiday pointless; not actually liking hot places; worrying about terrorists etc... not that ANY of this should matter, as just ‘not wanting to’ is sufficient)

we recently flew up to Scotland - i ended up booking an Airbnb to try and get away from my mother - had a scary flight on the way up, DD was pretty freaked but was brave enough to still fly back... my mother knew that she was scared of flying. DD would probably get over the phobia with encouragement, but being unwillingly forced onto a 5 hour flight without her parents?!

I admit, I delayed phoning my mum (by about 2 hours!) partly out of annoyance that all her communication had been with my DH instead of me. Not that it makes any difference, I suspect she’d already gone ahead and booked it. Sounding cross that DH hadn’t immediately returned her calls, despite him being - you know - at work - god, I am ranting now [pours another glass of wine]

So the whole thing was set up to be a fait accompli, she obviously decided that we ‘pander DD too much’ and if she’s forced to go through with it, oh how much better my mothers parenting would be!

But the WORST - and well done if you are still reading - is that she has obviously got my poor niece (13) involved to harangue DD with texts about ‘what a great time’ they’ll have, and how ‘granny just wanted to do a nice surprise!’ How low is that?!

I haven’t spoken to Mum since Thursday, I have no idea how to even talk to her. She’s crossed a line, and probably told everyone her side [i really hate confrontation, and even just explaining my side is beyond me, so now my whole family thinks I’m the evil controlling one]

And... breathe ...

I am never sure if I belong here tbh but things are not great. As with us all, there is a long history of good times, awful times, not speaking and just guilt, guilt and more guilt. I can't do right for doing wrong. Ironically I even feel guilty for posting this.

Well, good morning to you all on this oh-so-special day...

...I know this is probably the only place I can come on here and say that for the first time in my life, I have not acknowledged Mothering Sunday, and you will understand. I have been NC with my mother for almost a year. Long history of appalling behaviour from her, classic narc etc etc.

I hope you all have a good day whatever you are doing today.

That's all really!

I have not acknowledged mother's day either re my mother either. She is now on holiday and cannot abide mother's day anyway so it makes not buying anything that much easier. TBH I would not want to buy her anything anyway.

purplepandas

Your response is not atypical of what people initially write here at all.
I would think you would fit right in here given your own feelings of fear, obligation and guilt. Write as much or as little as you want over time about your own family of origin.

I would also suggest you read the resources at the start of this thread if you have not already done so. Toxic Parents would be a good starting point.