"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Congratulations Twinkletoes! That's fantastic news.

Minisoks, I think also the guilt doesn't survive very long once you start putting up boundaries because usually their behaviour goes right downhill really fast. Most of us have been unconsciously managing the emotions of our dysfunctional parents since we were tiny, and so there's actually very little conflict with them day to day. Then something happens - either you cop on and start enforcing your boundaries, like you have, or like for me it fell off a cliff when I had my kids, and my mother's behaviour suddenly got much more aggressive and drama-creating and looking back I realise it was because my focus was on the kids and I wasn't managing her the whole time. I'd forgotten how outrageously awful she could be. I think I thought she'd mellowed She hadn't.

I was going to say also I've totally lost your story minisoks (did you change username at one point? Or am I just not remembering?) but it sounds like you've been the truth teller as well as the scapegoat. They'll be getting pretty desperate to have you back in role soon, because otherwise they're going to have to nominate a new scapegoat or else admit to themselves that they are not perfect and/or that not everybody in the family needs to think the same thing. I like the fact that they tried to fire you after you left, and the co-opting of the elderly relative who very likely has no idea that this conversation is going on. (I remember after I went NC, the first thing I heard from my mother was a card informing me of the progress of my cousin's skin cancer treatment and enquiring as to whether I wanted her address to send flowers - a cousin who I really like very much (she was close to my dad) but who I think I saw like 10 times in my whole life. I'm fairly sure that she wasn't sitting by the phone waiting for me to call.)

Smiling no pity here, but can I give you some sympathy? Your situation is really hard, anyone would struggle. I wonder, is your illness one of those sort inflammatory/immune system type things that gets worse with stress?
Are there any support groups or charities associated with it that could help? Or would you be able to access therapy? MIND have some info on finding a therapist either privately or there are some charities that provide counselling. I did private therapy via Skype, so you don't necessarily need to go to their office.

I found a good (short) visor by Richard Grannon on scapegoating by the way - just a little bit in the reasons behind it.

Thank you toomuch.
I have one of those illnesses plus another I was diagnosed with and hospitalised with in Africa. Treatment for that one gave me anaphylactic shock. So a bit of a wreck really although normally I do manage to pace myself and have a reasonable quality of life.
No MIND anywhere nearby. I have found counselling I can self refer for but my GP will be informed. As I have eventually reached a reasonable compromise with him, he doesn’t believe the African illness exists and the other is all in my head and will be cured by Pilates and bike rides, I am reluctant to give him further cause to doubt my sanity.
I had an amazing, supportive GP before I moved house and while I could change am unsure as it might make things worse.
Private counselling is an option but would mean cutting back on other things, like massage, I am paying for.
Feeling much better. I actually went back to sleep after my 6am whinge. Sleep makes so much difference.
The books by Pete Walker are very good and two are available on Kindle Unlimited.
I will persevere and am hopeful things will improve once warmer weather comes.

Hi smiling, I'm glad you're feeling a bit better, you have a very strong-minded outlook on all this stuff. I keep my fingers crossed that the weather improves soon - can't be much longer now, and with the light nights coming everything is a bit easier isn't it?

@toomuchtooold, my story is;
Eldest of 2 daughters to my parents, who by some miracle have managed to stay together over decades of 'minor' arguments involving smashing crockery (dsis and I listening upstairs in bed), father's threats to "let [mum] be like her sisters" - two divorcees, neither remarried and one spinster. Sister was in and out of hospital and a child and therefore dependent on parents, mum in particular. I spent a lot of time with paternal grandma. Was very close to father until 13 when I realised unless I complied, he wasn't a nice man. He also had an alcohol problem for a few years and would get pissed every weekend, then come home and the tension would be stifling until he erupted. We were expected to work for him when he was self employed but would be sacked frequently for minor infractions at home, such as refusing to make a hot drink, not drying up the dishes, usual sibling arguments. Also parents manipulated my aunt and used a Trust fund set up by her for me to bail out their failing business with promises of money being returned and with interest. It still failed. Sister became parent at barely 17 and used baby as leverage to get parents to bend to her wishes 'you won't see your grandchild'. Parents bent over backwards to accommodate and stepped up and over her partner. They married but were seperated and divorced within a couple of years after baby no3 arrived. While her ex wasn't a perfect husband, he was a doting father and was struggling with my sister spending a lot of time with our parents. And their dominance of how things should be done. Parents provided majority of childcare for them. Until I was 25 I was single and living at home. Then met now Dh and had dd1 2 years later. Parents said as had done childcare for sister would do the same for me, but needed a day off. We obliged. Sister continued not to give day off. Ds1 arrived 2 years later, same arrangement. Sister got pregnant and was due 5 months later. During my pregnancy I had to ask if mum could possibly be with me in labour as Dh was in hospital at time. She refused, said she couldn't. But was there when sister went into labour and sent her husband to work 5 months later . Same abuse of childcare 'time off' by sister. I got pregnant with twins and parents said could no longer have children as too much for them. I gave up work. They still had my sisters. And continue to now she has dn4. Green eyed monster majorly on my part.

Dh and I ran into Financial difficulties and parents helped us out every now and then. Then another family member agreed I could borrow significant sum. Parents found out and weren't happy. That I'm only in touch when I need something etc. We lost our home because of finance issues. Asked parents if they would guarantor us. They refused, but only after leading us on and us nearly losing the home we had found.

As a teen I was sent to an ed psych due to me being chronically bullied. He touched upon issues with my parents which, at that age I didn't want to listen to and combined with continued bullying I stopped seeing him.

But over the years, and particularly since having my own children, I have learned a lot about myself and how subconsciously manipulated I was by my parents into being the compliant one while my younger sister was given pretty much free reign. I feared for my safety one night after my father lost his temper when I wouldn't immediately jump to his demand. I fled to my relatives but he worked it out and I was brought home and made to feel like I was in the wrong, by my mother and sister too, who hadn't even been there at the time.

More recently I have been withdrawing my family from them as Ds1 has adhd and is being assessed for asd. But they don't agree and think he just needs disciplining more robustly! The children have said they don't like it when they are always being told off and when their nanny shouts at them, for doing normal childhood things. When grandad always has a headache and tells them to shut up. And I've noticed I have developed some of the traits that I really don't like but that my parents did to me and I do t want my children to grow up feeling the same as I did.

Thank you minisoks. I've definitely seen you write about this stuff in bits and pieces but this is the first time I've seen it all together, I think. What jumps out at me is that your family is involved with each other a lot in terms of finances and work and things, and that your parents have tended to expect support from you (your trust fund, working for the family business) and to give support in turn, only to withdraw it if you do anything they disapprove of - so it becomes financial control/abuse.
My mother used to think that other people didn't get sick, and if they did all they needed was to try harder and get well. And that was for illnesses that you could see and do blood tests for, god knows what she'd have been like with ASD or ADHD. That must be really hard. You're his umbrella, you have to just shield him from that bullshit. It sounds though like you've tried to disengage a little bit and it's gone down like a lead balloon? I think it's often the way, low contact leads very quickly to no contact because we underestimate the amount of effort we've been putting in to managing the relationship, and as soon as you stop, you see exactly how dysfunctional they are.

Fuck my life. I've followed this thread for a year or so now, always wanting to post but never knowing where to start. I can empathise with a lot of people on here, reading your experiences of dysfunctional families, narc siblings and toxic parents. I have written it all down, but its like an essay!
I feel so sad just now about it all. About never being good enough, about being the hated sister just because I stood back and said 'thats not nice'. Ah I'm rambling now.
Fuck.

Hello Blackwater - good to have you here, sad that you have to be...

Please feel free to share as much or as little as you want to - if you're worried about being outed, there's a members only side forum called Stately Survivors - it's a bit quiet but you'll get an answer, or alternatively there's a quieter Stately Homes option, PM me for details.

I've only just stumbled across this thread from somewhere else on Mumsnet. I've never posted before, only lurked, because I feel a bit of a fraud being on Mumsnet, being as I am not a mum. Part of that decision was a fear that I might somehow perpetuate some of the behaviour meted out to me by my mum. I am sorry to discover so many people in a similar boat, and I have only skimmed a bit of this enormous thread! I'm not here to rake up old behaviour but curious as to whether others have experience of a mother who makes everything about herself? No matter what problem/ disaster may befall other family members she will express a modicum of sympathy and then dwell forever on the awful effect the disaster is having on her. My coping strategy to date (on everything, not just this aspect) is emotional distance as far as humanly possible and an enormous amount of tongue-biting.

May I join? I hope those of you who feel able to can help me see things more clearly.

I’m not sure what you call this family dynamic, I’m 40, Dsis is 3.5 years younger than me, may be a golden child but she’d say the same about me. Parents, decent I think, don’t doubt they did their best.

DSis has had various diagnosed MH issues since a teenager and spent her adult life doing various degrees while living with parents and we alternate between distance and relative closeness.

Asked her to be godmother to our son, she prioritises another event the night before instead of coming to stay as expected, found out third hand. Feel like our son is second best. An argument ensues and has rumbled on to this day.

Any subsequent conversation seems to push the blame back to me when I’m not met with bewildered stares like I’ve dreamt it all.

It takes up a lot of headspace worrying about this and feeling guilty, I feel defensive when Dh mentions them. I am more concerned how this will affect my children.

I see this is one of a long series of threads so I guess I’m not alone.

Sorry to everyone having a hard time

I've not been around for ages, lots of health issues going on.

I've had two emergency surgeries in the last year., additionally have longstanding M.E which renders me bedbound, wheelchair, 24/7 severe pain (relevant).

My older brother, I'm 40 he's say, a decade older, emotionally abused and bullied me during my childhood. Definitely not normal sibling rivalry. I've been NC with him for about three years now, I last sent him a message calling him out on some of the childhood stuff (he tried to pass it off as normal childhood stuff).Ive not spoken to him since, and actively avoid him.

I'm also NC with Mother, I'm unsure about father, sorry this is getting long... Mother a narc, father enabler. Childhood emotional abuse and I was also sexually abused by someone outside family. Have PTSD. Counsellor said I'm in a crap position as I avoid men because of the emotional and sexual trauma, and I don't trust women due to the golden child attitude of mother and her crusade against me.

Brother also led a crusade with my parents against me last year, which lead to my being threatened of being cut out of my parents' will... It's only my father who has apologised for it.

So, the question.... I've noticed during my last operation brother posted a "get well"message on my (extremely quiet) Facebook, and has posted a couple of "hope you get better"type messages since.

I'm confused. Is this him offering an olive branch? My first though is fuck him, I've had no apology from him for either the childhood shit, or what transpired last year (would be very outing to detail). Or should I give him the chance?

Lots of emotions, lots of related and unrelated crap going on.

Shoutout to @toomuchtooold , doing an amazing job as always xx

You're right. We've a history of being far too involved. On father's side the financial involvement runs through. My parents have been bailed out with loans several times by my grandma. I didn't see this until after I got into the cycle myself and realised what the cost would be.

On mother's side, is the general over involvement and telling each other what they should be doing, and how they are doing it wrong!

With my sister I've always been aware of the dependence she has on them, ironic given she appears to be the most independent of us both. But I think that goes back to childhood when she had to be dependent on them, and while she tried to break free, ultimately her path was set. I spent much of it in what now would be deemed a carer role, making sure she had toys, drinks etc and entertaining her so the parents could do what they needed. And this is definitely the cycle I need to break, as I am doing the same with my eldest. She ends up helping out with the younger two while I'm managing a meltdown from Ds1. It means she ends up feeling like she doesn't get enough time with us - and she has said that.

Hi Steve

I would not think that your brother's message is in any way an olive branch and I think he has not changed one iota since childhood. Maintain your own radio silence with him, what these people want is a response and to them that is the reward.

Again there has been no apology (a proper one, not the sort that says well I'm sorry you feel like that etc) nor importantly any sense of taking responsibility here for his own actions. It would not surprise me either if your mother put him up to doing this somehow too. I would also question the timing; why now?.

Your family of origin have had a lifetime to make a difference when it came to you and the three of them all took the low road. Your father may have made some sort of acknowledgement here to you but to my mind anyway he is not off the hook here. He is a very weak enabler and codependent and he is not worthy of any of your time either. He has also failed you utterly here as a parent.

I hope your counsellor is helpful to you and that your PTSD is being properly addressed; keep plugging away.

Choc

Welcome. Do feel free to post as much or as little as you like. You do not also have to be a mum to read MN either. FWIW your mother sounds like a narcissist in terms of personality; I would read the Daughters of Narcissistic mothers website and see how much of that fits in with your own experiences of your mother. You may also find the Out of the Fog website also helpful. Distance both emotional and physical is necessary.

TC

Welcome to the Stately Homes thread

I'd call your family of origin dynamic very dysfunctional. People from such families end up playing roles; what roles are you all playing here. What are your parents like?. It sounds like your sister has tried to avoid adult life altogether by embarking on one degree course after another. How have your parents tried or not re your sister in the intervening years?. How much have they leaned on you?.

Re your comments in quote marks:-
"Asked her to be godmother to our son, she prioritises another event the night before instead of coming to stay as expected, found out third hand. Feel like our son is second best. An argument ensues and has rumbled on to this day".

Why did you ask your sister to be godmother to your son?. Was that because of your own fear, obligation and guilt or pressure from parents?. Presumably you went onto rescind that invitation given her subsequent behaviours as well.

You would not have put up with this from a friend, your sister is no different. She probably also engineered such an argument as well to make you feel bad when it was her actions that caused all this in the first place. You cannot reason with the dysfunctional so I would stop trying.

"Any subsequent conversation seems to push the blame back to me when I’m not met with bewildered stares like I’ve dreamt it all".

Are these conversations with your sister or your parents?. Its really that person refusing to take responsibility for their own actions along with trying to gaslight you. This often happens as well in emotionally unhealthy family structures.

"It takes up a lot of headspace worrying about this and feeling guilty, I feel defensive when Dh mentions them. I am more concerned how this will affect my children".

What does your DH say about them?. I would keep well away from all your family of origin, particularly your sister. Your child as well needs positive and emotionally healthy role models. Deal with your own fear, obligation and guilt through therapy.

ChocorCheese hello and welcome You absolutely don't need to be a parent to be on this thread or Mumsnet generally. FWIW I really relate to your wish not to perpetuate your mother's behaviour.

My mother makes everything about herself - my armchair diagnosis suspicion is that she either has Narcissistic personality disorder or Paranoid personality disorder. There are some really good examples of that sort of "all about me" behaviour in the Toxic Parents book (link in the OP) and also what I've been reading recently, M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie.
Tongue biting and emotional distance sounds like an excellent idea - it's sometimes called grey rocking i.e. you make yourself into a boring grey rock to avoid getting pulled into the drama.

Hello troublesomechild, welcome. There's a good few people on the thread with experience with difficult sibling relationships so hopefully someone will be able to chip in.
Just my 2p worth, but what I would say is that if you know your sister is going to flake on you, and you still want to try and include her in things, can you try to arrange it so that nothing high-stakes is riding on her participation? Even if you get to understand why she behaves how she does, it's unlikely her behaviour will change.

Hi Steve! You know me, always the cynic, but could it be that your brother is showing concern because it's Facebook, it's public, you've been really ill, and it would make him look really bad if he didn't at least say "get well soon"? I think you're totally reasonable to think "fuck him" if there's no apology forthcoming. Can you watch and wait? I don't think you're in any way obliged to reconcile with him (despite what flying monkeys might say to you about family etc) and especially with everything else you've got going on. Does he bring anything good into your life? Do you miss him?

minisoks I think with the financial involvement, what it is is that it compounds any dysfunction and carries on the effects far into adulthood. I'm sure there are families that work like this and it works fine. (I just don't know any )
I think it's really positive that you're aware of the issue with your DD, and that she feels like she can say that to you. IDK about your parents but I could never have said something like that to my mother.

Right, I am going to shut up now because I know for a fact that everyone on the thread has lots of insight and good advice to give and stuff and I feel like I'm taking all the air in the thread right now. Also because my Leechblock is about to kick in and make me do some work, aargh...

TC

Re this comment in your post:-

"Parents, decent I think, don’t doubt they did their best"

I think my in-laws would think the same re their two now adult children (and my DH will not hear anything bad said against his mother so that is how blind to her he still is). But they failed miserably because they were emotionally ill equipped and inadequate as human beings themselves. A self absorbed martyr mother and a weak enabling emotionally unavailable father was a disaster in the making for their children. They took the low road. BIL went off the rails as a teen. Parents did nothing, this was well outside their own narrow remit so they enabled him. He cannot hold down any job or relationship and has to my mind anyway an untreated and untreatable personality disorder (along the lines of NPD).

And what toomuchtooold (hello!) wrote as well in her reply to you.

Don't have time to write much, GP appt with a male doc I've never seen before. I'm shaking just thinking about it, and will likely need abdo examination. Hope I don't go full PTSD foetal position panic attack

And you're both right, kind of confirmed what I've been thinking. Will post properly after docs.

Hi toomuch! You should have email but my mail servers hiccuping...

@toomuchtooold, my parents did not, still do not value my feelings. Because they are subjective to me and not how they remember things happening. Therefore how I felt was/is irrelevant unless it was identical to their experience of the event.

When I last broached the subject of father shouting and verbally abusing me in my own home I got "we can forget about that". Says it all really.

Thank you so much, @toomuchtooold those articles have been really helpful, plus the You-tube DVD. They have helped me understand my family dynamics growing up. My DB was scapegoated as an adolescent, very much so, which is probably why my DM has been smothering him during his adult years. He's been full of jealousy for DSis and me, thinking we've 'made it' unlike him. Why my DM keeps telling me about that is beyond me because what am I supposed to do about it?? Feel guilty that I managed somehow to survive?

It's very interesting, what's said in the DVD about families not having our best interests at heart. It can be an obsession with children succeeding and being 'a credit' to them. My father was obsessed with academic success. I remember my DSis telling him so proudly that she was graded third in the class. His response: 'I want you to be the best in the class, not third.' And he offered to double our pocket money if we were top of the class. I refused on principle! (I was about 9.)

He would get so angry if we didn't do well. I remember him (and my DM sometimes) yelling at my DB because he couldn't do his maths homework. My DM once actually caned him, she has bitterly regretted this ever since tbf.

I bore the brunt of these expectations because I was seen as the intelligent child. I actually thought it was a curse, not a blessing. My father kept saying that I was 'lazy' and so did my DM occasionally. The problem was that I didn't believe I could do it, and my brain just couldn't function, obviously because of the other things that were happening.

My father used to go on about how ashamed of me he was. They both have lip service to loving us all unconditionally, but their treatment of us didn't back that up.

Having read the links that you shared, I strongly suspect that my F had both NPD and PPD. Certainly he very much saw us as extensions of himself. And my DM thought he was such a good father. But, despite both of them being highly gifted, they were terrible parents.

Thanks for the welcomes. To those who have suggested my mother is a narc - yes. I've done some research over the years and she fits the bill. It took me years to shake off her influence on me to any meaningful extent. Even now she knows exactly what buttons to press but I have got good at appearing not to react. I like the term grey rocking.

@Lizzie48 - OMG I totally relate to the performance issue. My mother was obsessed with my marks. Luckily for me I was quite academic and was able to perform to her satisfaction most of the time. I also feel like a performing monkey sometimes. As I child I was always paraded to their friends and expected to make a good impression. Even as an adult my mother is always trying to invite some friend over or telephone someone when I am there - I suppose so she can brag about me being a wonderful daughter and thus bask in the glory of being perceived as a wonderful mother. It got to the point when she used the change the day her cleaner came if I was visiting, so that the cleaner would be there at the same time.

Actually I did great in the end academically, I was a late developer! I have 2 degrees now, but the damage to my self esteem was permanent, although I'm waiting to see what further therapy can do.

Oh dear just realised what an essay this is.

Been trying to formulate what to write here for a while... sorry I don't know all the abbreviations yet. I'm quite new.

I am NC with my mother (and that whole side of the family plus big sister) because a few years ago I was at my lowest, admitting to myself and family that i had been depressed all through teenage years, and all she would do was stress me out and tell me to get a job and that everything would be better if I had a job. Wouldn't accept that there were none/how hard it is these days just cause she'd never had a problem getting one. Also would go on and on about how much weed I smoked at that point even though she proudly admitted 'I would be an alcoholic if I didn't drive for a living' and saw no problem with drinking all the time whenever she wasn't working. I suppose because to her she was morally superior or something because she had a job to fund it (I did have a full time job but left it because it turned me into a zombie and I hated it.)

She translated my downturn in mental health into that my new relationship (with my now husband who has been the catalyst in helping me realise all this) was bad. My older sister also firmly believed this and even bullied a mutual friend of ours into spying on us ( I think she was jealous that I was having fun and had found a wonderful, sexy man when her relationship wasn't good)

That's pretty much why I stopped speaking to her but since then I've been actually learning who I am and thinking about my past and how it's affected me now and I don't actually remember much, if any love or affection from her. I was never ill, wasn't a "problem child", always did as I was told and didn't complain because I thought it was what people wanted of me, so never got much attention (older middle child of 4). Also reading a few above comments, can relate to being expected to do well. Once only lost three marks on an exam, top in the year, went home all pleased with myself to be asked where the three marks went. I think that came from her doing shit in school and having to sit her O levels (or whatever it was) twice

One of the things I remember most as a teenager was being overwhelmingly lonely and this is probably why. I never felt I could talk to her. TMI I know but when I first got my period age about 13 I told her, which was hard for me, and she didn't mention it to me again after that first day until a few months later when she asked if I'd had it again and I lied and said no. I just dealt with it myself and had learned by then to shut feelings away inside me.

This loneliness made me desperate for a boyfriend (someone to care for me I guess) and have no confidence which led to being pretty much raped for my 'first time' (had a two year relationship with that guy) and not even realising it until years later. I had no respect for myself, couldn't work out why I was so sad and had no confidence. (I was also sexually abused by my (same age) cousins when we were kids but that's a whole other kettle of fish)

I am trying so hard not to be like my mother even though her excuse is that that's what her parents were like (thankfully husband has no problem telling me when I am being an inconsiderate prick) because we are having a baby soon and I want them to feel able to talk to me about anything and have the confidence to stand up for themselves. I'm also aware though that by trying to hard to make them be something I'm in ways doing the same thing as her. I just want our child to be happy and healthy and not have to go through all this shit as adults just to find out who they are, because it's been horrible.

TL;DR Trying not to become my mother so that my unborn child doesn't end up like me.

Sorry I know this is rambling. It's my third or fourth attempt to try and write this but I think it will help me solidify my reasons for not wanting to see her/my child to have anything to do with her.

Its awful to read all of your stories. Why are so many parents screwed up? I hope we don’t make the same mistakes with our children.

I understand part of my mothers issues. She got pregnant, and married, at just 16. She had to put her life and career on hold, and her husband turned out to be an alcoholic. After divorcing him, she worked all hours to raise 3 children on her own. She probably chose to get married to escape an abusive situation with her own parents. Her life has not been easy.

Its recently occurred to me that she got married when she was still essentially a child. Maybe she was never able to mature in some ways; that would explain some of her odd behaviour. None of that makes a difference to how I feel; I do feel sorry for her but at the same she winds me up so much.

A few years ago when she was being particularly awful, we had a big row and I actually told her to behave I put the phone down on her after saying that she should only ring back if she could be respectful! After that her behaviour did improve, but it's still exhausting.

I also wanted to say toomuchtooold you're amazing for reading everyone's stories and being supportive to everybody.

The date of our ‘holiday’ draws closer and I’m getting more and more stressed. Oh! I forgot to mention, that I did (partly) tackle the issue last time I saw her! She was babbling on about how it would be great to get everyone together, my face clearly showed a different opinion and she asked if I didn’t want her to be there. I couldn’t say that no, I didn’t actually want to share a small house with her for 4 days – it would hurt her greatly, and I know how it feels to be hurt by someone you love

However I did bring up the catching the plane memory “let’s not have a repeat of the 2002 incident where you nearly made us miss the flight, eh?” of course she responded “yeah, but you didn’t miss it!” and then she went on to accuse me of being a worrier, over-sensitive etc. Nevertheless, I think it hit home, and she will probably make sure we don’t miss this one. I’m going to chalk that one up as a success.

The actual trip, I’m still dreading. The thought of being around her 24/7 – I’ve always been an introvert [wonder why…] and like to have some ‘me-time’ to read or surf. And what if she starts her needling me with criticisms? I might snap, which just stresses me out further. I don’t even understand why she does that – she will say how proud of me she is in one breath, and then disapprove of my parenting skills the next. When I remember that I had this constantly growing up, how I never ever felt good enough (but didn’t even realise this dynamic until I got therapy as an adult) Maybe she’s like that, because that was her dynamic with her parents – and she hasn’t matured beyond that.

Lol, I’ve just remembered something from my childhood, I used to go out to the local park in the evenings, walk down the dark streets past the graveyard, and now I realise it was because I just needed to get away. Everyone thought I was weird, going out after dark for no reason. But how can I criticise her – that was during a time when we were dirt-poor, living in a shitty rented house, and mum was working 2 jobs and so exhausted she would feed us pot noodles for tea.

Apologies for the length of this. The next couple of weeks are probably going to be filled with increasingly angry/worried/upset posts by me.