WWYD - my daughter wants to live with me all the time - exDH wants 50/50

[Tigerbear]

My daughter is 6, and her dad and I separated when she was one. We agreed then - and thought it was the best way - to have shared custody, where she's with me half the week, him half the week.
This has worked relatively well until recently. For the past 2-3 months, she's been extremely upset at the prospect of going back to her dad's, to the point of being distraught. She's said on many occasions that she no longer wants to continue living in two houses and that it's upsetting for her. When asked what she would like to happen, she first says that she wants us all to live together, and when I explain that that's not going to happen, she says she just wants to live with me and that she'd just visit daddy.

Several key things have happened to change the dynamic since exDH and I split: he met someone else, she has a daughter the same age as my DD (they're in the same class at school too), he moved in with her, and they then had a baby who is a year old. Her DD is quite a strong character, and although my DD loves her and they call each other sisters, I know my DD sometimes feels anxious by the other girl.
DD has also expressed jealousy of the new baby.

When asked why she wants to stay with me more, she says because there are 5 people at daddy's house, and only two of us at mine. She is quite sensitive, likes her own space and a certain calmness, and she obviously doesn't get that at her dad's (all three of the children share a room there, in a small flat), and she doesn't get any one to one time with her dad.

ExDH doesn't see that there's an issue - he says she's fine when she's actually at their house, and that it's more the anxiety/the prospect of missing me that's the issue, and that we just need to find a way of managing DD's anxiety and sympathising that it's hard living between two houses.
He brings up petty things like saying of course she prefers being at mine as you give her sweets and chocolate and let her watch more TV, which we don't do at ours (he made a big point of bringing this up during a meeting we had with teachers recently, trying to make himself look like the better parent).

DD was distraught the other day, begging me to ask exDH if she could live at mine. What do I do, when he sees no problem? He's saying she doesn't really understand what she wants at such a young age - his analogy: well, she says she wants to eat loads of biscuits, but we don't let her just go ahead with it, we can't change everything just because she wants to, it's disruptive for everyone.

The thing about exDH is that he's subtly controlling, smug, arrogant, pretty much despised at his work because of this (I found out from a friend who worked with him that a young trainee had left because of him gas lighting her). He has a way of making people feel like they're in the wrong, and I don't know how to fight it.
His solution is that we need to take DD to see a child psychologist to find out what's wrong.
All I see is my little DD totally crushed these days - she's always been such a joyful and happy child, and the light has gone from her eyes, she's fretful, always says she feels ill, doesn't want to do anything.

Sorry for the long post. Any suggestions much appreciated.

Think I would try and video the behaviour you are witnessing to show the psychologist how extreme the begging is

They sound like arseholes! As an adult I wouldn’t want to live between 2 houses. I know people with 50:50 shared care but that’s due to the mother wanting to go out and party with her new bf. and regularly dumps the kids to go off out. Honestly I think I’d prefer to go to court with him. This obviously isn’t a drama thing as you’re not giving in and she’s still having to go. Could you reduce to a night a week and part weekends? Your poor little dd. You need to speak up as her dad doesn’t sound like he gives a shit about how she feels.

I agree about the videoing.

I think you need a written diary - daily, hourly everything time she mentions the topic, you write it down. The more extreme behaviour you video.

I think you need to be preparing for a court case, so cover yourself.

Make an appointment with a GP to discuss DD's emotional state. So you set a paper trail independently of the psychologist you're booked to see.

OP have you taken any advice from a family law solicitor? I'd urge you to do so. They'll give you a clearer idea of how the courts might deal with the situation. I'm in Scotland so it's different here but the over riding principal of best interests of the child is the same. They do take the views of the child into account, age is one of the factors they consider but they look at the individual child. How articulate etc they are. I hope that the psychologist helps. It's heart breaking reading your posts. Hope something can be done for your poor DD.

I would also write to the school so that you have confirmation of the issue in writing, not just verbal discussion.

Absolutely you must talk to a solicitor, agree with mummy

tiger - my view is that you should be seeking legal advice and making an application to court for a child arrangement order. It would be unwise to unilaterally change the current arrangements and chances are if you do, your ex will apply to court for an order and you'll be on the back foot. Whilst your daughter is young in terms of her wishes and feelings being a major factor, they should still be considered. If you can persuade the Court (or cafcass at the initial stage) that there should be a full report into what arrangements there should be, hopefully your daughter would be talked to (or at least observed) and recommendations made accordingly. At the very least you could then tell your daughter that the Judge felt that this arrangement was for the best. The longer this arrangement remains in place with your daughter complaining about it, the harder it will be to change it.

Living between two houses must be difficult enough without the overcrowding and a new baby and a new step sibling the same age. I think you need to go back to court and get this sorted. Your ex doesn't seem to be thinking of the best interests of your DD in this case. Usually I'd think she's not old enough to decide. But she's old enough not to be happy in this set-up at your ex's.

I realise that her situation at the ex's is not ideal and she has a much nicer time at yours but her reaction is really extreme. As you mentioned most kids don't much like school and we still make them go but they don't normally react like your daughter about it. If that happened we probably wouldn't just be dragging them into school we would get some help. Sharing a bedroom and having an annoying baby sister around isn't the end of the world if she is also having fun there, so why is she getting so upset? Is something else going on or has she just worked herself into a state over it?

Definitely speak with a solicitor and try to video some of the extreme behaviour.
Also need to point out to ex that the situation needs to be reviewed because he is the one who changed the dynamic of the situation by moving in with new partner with a daughter and having another child. What worked when your DD was small is no longer suitable and just because she is a child she shouldn't be made to go along with it.

I agree record her and start logging it all. Dates, reaction and how long it lasts and go from there. She obviously needs to have a relationship with her dad but it has to be a good relationship. Forcing this isn’t doing her any favours and it sounds like it’s now seriously affecting her.

Also whenever you are talking to someone about this be sure to point out that you were happy with the 50/50 and had even set up your business round it. You are only thinking of changing because your daughter asked to and is so upset about the situation. Don't let them pin it on mum being awkward.

His argument to me is that if the situation was reversed, and she said she wanted to live with him instead of me, is that I'd be fighting to understand what the root of the problem is

It sounds like the root of the problem is completely fucking clear... she's unsettled by constant moving around, she struggles with her half-siblings, she misses one-on-one attention, she prefers a quieter space. Your ex just doesn't want to acknowledge that these are real problems to your daughter.

She has expressed a clear preference for her solution to the problems (stay with you). He also has a clear preference for a solution to the problems (she should get over it). The trouble is, his solution doesn't involve actually addressing the issues, it just involves a six-year-old trying to stuff down her feelings about them.

If he wants to keep the current arrangement, he needs start to solve the actual problems at his house (sibling issues, lack of 1-1 attention, overcrowding, lack of calm space) rather than ignoring what his daughter is saying.

I'm all got 50/50 ish and children not having the power to dictate but your DD is clearly very unhappy and your ex being a bullying dick over it!!

I would be worried that there are issues with stepmum - just a poor atmosphere nothing major but the more they try and shut her up the more her anxiety is soaring

Is the agreement at the moment court ordered - otherwise I would actually say that a legal agreement may well be best.

So I would say that you are no longer doing 50/50 (if not court ordered) and that you agree to getting the situation done legally with an aim to her doing EOW and one night a week with them. You would rather it done without the need for court but understand that it could be beneficial to get it agreed and you feel that this is right for your daughter

I really feel for you op.
My situation is far less extreme but I'm well aware of how hard it is to stand up to an exh like this, and be accused of being unreasonable. I've also had DD's going and coming back upset but been told that 'they had a great time' by exh...that 'they say one thing to you and another to me' (the implication being that I'm forcing them into saying things to appease me, which I absolutely am not), ' they don't know their own minds' etc etc.it makes you question yourself and your relationship with your own children. But try to trust your instincts. And trust your child and how she relates to you.
Your ex like mine sounds a skilled people manager, used to getting what they want at work and Having things done their way.its scary to confront that kind of person.
But at the end of the day if your dd is that upset, then you have to advocate for her.
Being abused in the street by ex and his wife is not on at all by the way.

While I agree that 50/50 isn’t always an arrangement which works for every child, there is surely a middle ground between 50/50 and the child living with you and only visiting her father. You would presumably never agree to this if she wanted it the other way around and wanted to be living with her dad and siblings.

And with regard to working with her to establish where the issues have come from, your ex does have a point, and I speak as a parent who started out with a 50/50 arrangement and whose now teenage child started rebelling at around the age of twelve and now spends no time at his dad’s at all.

I would also consider whether she is telling you what you want to hear in many instances. She’s saying she’s unhappy because you are currently considering her wish of not making her stay at her dad’s. In fact you have given in to her and have allowed her to stay at yours when she said she didn’t want to go.

You also need to tread carefully because if she learns that by becoming upset you will give in to her and let her stay at yours, if the status quo were to change at yours at any time she may well decide to start wanting to stay at her dad’s, and as you’ve given in to what she wants her dad could well do the same if the opportunity arose.

At six she really isn’t old enough to be calling the shots unless there is serious abuse at play here. And while I totally get that being in two houses is unsettling for her, the reality here is that she does have parents who live apart, and the setups at those parents’ houses are different and as such she is likely to favour the setup where she is the centre of attention.

Also, I would start holding back on the fun days out for a bit. If she always gets fun at yours and not at theirs both because they have a young baby and because of her SM’s illness then you may well be being seen as the disney parent, both by her and also by her dad. She needs to realise that if she’s living at yours then that’s what it means, she will be there when you’re busy and don’t have time to devote to her, so no staying up late to do work, she’s old enough to be told to go and play for a bit while you do some things. Also I would point out to her that it may not always be just the two of you, and that you might meet someone one day who has children of their own and you could have more children one day in the future. At the moment she has clearly stated that she favours being at yours because there are only two of you. That may not always be the case, and she doesn’t get to call the shots in that regard, but if your setup changes she doesn’t get to suddenly decide she wants to stay at her dad’s after all if you meet someone and she realises all wasn’t as she thought it would be.

With regards to her 30 times a day outbursts, is she only having these with you? Because again I would wonder whether they are genuine distress or whether there is some manipulation here depending on how you’re responding to them. I wouldn’t tell her anything tbh. I would tell her that you and her dad are hoping to work something out between you, but that he is her dad and that she doesn’t have reason to not ever stay there. But other than that I really wouldn’t give them too much attention.

You need to be really careful of not falling into the trap (wrong wording but I’ll try to explain) of her thinking that you’re always there. You say she was distressed when it turned out you weren’t at home when they came back from holiday. It seems that she has developed an expectation that you don’t live independently of her, and that’s a really dangerous road to go down because it can lead to greater belief that you’re nothing without them and that anything you do without them is like a betrayal somehow. She wants to be 100% part of your world, possibly partly because her dad and stepmum have a life which doesn’t include her when she’s not there. But that means she is potentially more likely to cling to you in the belief that she is 100% part of your world iyswim.

I agree with him. She is only 6 and it isn't her who should be stipulating the visiting split. And yes her levels of anxiety need examining.

No it should be the parents acting in her best interests and not theirs. At the moment it sounds as if she is not a child whose best interests is to be split between two places and needs one home with visitation to the other.

I would get it in place legally and get a CAFCAS report - they should look into her anxiety which is probably cause by not feeling she has a home.

50/50 is very much for the parents and not always for the child

I wouldn't send my child to her dad's if she was begging not to go 30 times a day either.

Document it.
Record it

Your DD sounds very articulate for her age.

If I was the NRP ... I wouldn't force my child to split homes if it caused this much upset to them.

In all honesty...if agree with no overnights and make it such a lovely atmosphere in the hope she'd change her mind.

I imagine it feels to her like it's her stepsisters room and she joins them half the time.

I’ve not read the full thread, but in your shoes I think I’d support a child psychologist, ideally one with experience of these sorts of issues. It gives your daughter someone professional and independent to talk too, and that person can then help your daughter speak to both of you, and also have you both in sessions where she helps yor daughter talk about what she wants and why, and understand what your ex wants too, all done more neutrally.

So what happens when the DD decides that she doesn’t want to visit any more and starts telling the OP this 30 times a day as well. Does the OP simply withhold contact because her daughter who is six and by no means mature enough to know that cutting off contact with her dad means having no relationship with her sibling (the baby) as well?

Bear in mind here that the OP is saying she doesn’t want to go there because they never do anything when she is there, and yet she is happy to visit during the day, the time when they would be doing things?

In my ex’s case he took the side of his partner and stepchild every single time we had a conversation. Even now if they see each other half the time is spent lecturing DS on how selfish and immature he is for not visiting even though his partner has no qualms about slagging me off in front of him and her own children.

But he’s nearly sixteen and is old enough to make those decisions for himself. When he was eleven/twelve he certainly wasn’t old enough to just decide he didn’t want to go there any more. me and ex were still together when he was six, but at six there’s no way I would have entertained his telling me he didn’t want to go.

It sounds as if the DD has found it difficult to come to terms with the fact that ex has a new partner as she’s said she wants you all to live under the same roof. The stepmum having a baby will have cemented the fact her parents are not going to be getting back together.

And there is another consideration here. If the OP allows the DD to cut off her relationship with her father (and refusing to stay there is halfway there) what happens if something happens to the OP and she needs to stay with him but can’t because she hasn’t for x months/years? He’s her father, if anything happens to her mum he will be the person required to look after her. If she has no relationship with him it will make a bad situation even worse.

And I speak from experience. I was seriously ill eighteen months ago. DS was staying at his dad’s during the week at that point, but as he hasn’t stayed there for a while now ex has said to him that if I were to get sick again he wouldn’t be welcome to stay there. Has even gone so far as to say that if I got sick.... or worse.... read into that what you will, then he isn’t welcome to go and stay there.

And for thos saying he’s the NRP, he isn’t. They currently have a 50/50 arrangement, whether that needs reviewing is a conversation which needs to be had. But the fact here is that the DD does have two houses. She doesn’t get to choose on that score, and the ex is right when he says that they need to get to the root of the problem rather than just the OP giving in to what she wants.

And if this situation were reversed nobody would be saying that the mother should just allow the child to visit, they’d be calling parental alienation and suggesting the OP get an emergency child arrangement order etc.

At six she really isn’t old enough to be calling the shots unless there is serious abuse at play here.

I really disagree. The child's mental and emotional wellbeing is of prime importance and if that is suffering it doesn't make any difference what the cause is. It's not abuse or bust.

Child contact shouldn't be purely for the benefit and satisfaction of the parents. If the child is markedly unhappy with the arrangements, regardless of their age, that needs to be considered.

Bottom line is if this child is forced to go to her father's regardless of her distress, she may quite feasibly cut off contact completely as soon as she is able.

It's not actually in the father's interest to force the issue now, better to allow her some time out and then re-establish contact on her terms that she feels comfortable with.

He's dealt her a hand that is a lot (clearly too much) for her to handle - new SM sister and baby in small flat, and he needs to take responsibilty for that. She may just need some time to adjust, for the household to quite down, or for them to move to a bigger place.

^quieten