WWYD - my daughter wants to live with me all the time - exDH wants 50/50

[Tigerbear]

My daughter is 6, and her dad and I separated when she was one. We agreed then - and thought it was the best way - to have shared custody, where she's with me half the week, him half the week.
This has worked relatively well until recently. For the past 2-3 months, she's been extremely upset at the prospect of going back to her dad's, to the point of being distraught. She's said on many occasions that she no longer wants to continue living in two houses and that it's upsetting for her. When asked what she would like to happen, she first says that she wants us all to live together, and when I explain that that's not going to happen, she says she just wants to live with me and that she'd just visit daddy.

Several key things have happened to change the dynamic since exDH and I split: he met someone else, she has a daughter the same age as my DD (they're in the same class at school too), he moved in with her, and they then had a baby who is a year old. Her DD is quite a strong character, and although my DD loves her and they call each other sisters, I know my DD sometimes feels anxious by the other girl.
DD has also expressed jealousy of the new baby.

When asked why she wants to stay with me more, she says because there are 5 people at daddy's house, and only two of us at mine. She is quite sensitive, likes her own space and a certain calmness, and she obviously doesn't get that at her dad's (all three of the children share a room there, in a small flat), and she doesn't get any one to one time with her dad.

ExDH doesn't see that there's an issue - he says she's fine when she's actually at their house, and that it's more the anxiety/the prospect of missing me that's the issue, and that we just need to find a way of managing DD's anxiety and sympathising that it's hard living between two houses.
He brings up petty things like saying of course she prefers being at mine as you give her sweets and chocolate and let her watch more TV, which we don't do at ours (he made a big point of bringing this up during a meeting we had with teachers recently, trying to make himself look like the better parent).

DD was distraught the other day, begging me to ask exDH if she could live at mine. What do I do, when he sees no problem? He's saying she doesn't really understand what she wants at such a young age - his analogy: well, she says she wants to eat loads of biscuits, but we don't let her just go ahead with it, we can't change everything just because she wants to, it's disruptive for everyone.

The thing about exDH is that he's subtly controlling, smug, arrogant, pretty much despised at his work because of this (I found out from a friend who worked with him that a young trainee had left because of him gas lighting her). He has a way of making people feel like they're in the wrong, and I don't know how to fight it.
His solution is that we need to take DD to see a child psychologist to find out what's wrong.
All I see is my little DD totally crushed these days - she's always been such a joyful and happy child, and the light has gone from her eyes, she's fretful, always says she feels ill, doesn't want to do anything.

Sorry for the long post. Any suggestions much appreciated.

Has this all kicked off since the baby arrived?

Eloise - we've never had any problems before the baby arrived, but DD appears to love her, even though she's told her dad she's a bit jealous of her. However the baby is 18 months old, and the getting upset is a new thing (past 4 months).

Don't send her. I agree with your mum - you are clearly intimidated by him and aren't protecting your daughter as a result. She sounds completely distraught and it is going to affect her mental health. Let him pursue it through the courts if he wants to - he can explain to them why 3 children are sharing a room when he earns a six figure salary and why he's been so dismissive of his daughter's needs and doesn't listen to her. He sounds awful. Of course she doesn't want to be there.

Agree with other posters about your dd shouldn't be dictating contact arrangements - no way at 6.

Your ex is somewhat right saying that you need to be united in supporting your dd to manage anxiety.

If you reduce contact it needs to be planned and drama free. You can't validate her anxiety it will be worse.

I sympathise though I have one dd (8) that goes happily off to dad without a second thought and one who cries and clings and all sorts (5) it's horrid but I believe exh when he says she's fine there (sends plenty of photos and kids are positive about their contact time). Dd1 stops me overthinking dd2 behaviour who is a bit of a drama queen.

The dynamics in your ex's home have changed.
She is a 'princess' in her home with you.
In her dad's she is one of 3 children to be cared for.
If she is a very spoilt only child with you she will find her other home difficult to cope with.

A court would rarely, if ever, agree a 50/50 arrangement for a one year old like you agreed with your ex. It’s far too unsettling to move between the houses and I’m sure she is feeling the impact now she is at school.

If you were to go to court now they usually begin with the status quo and work from there. Also, as she is only 6 they may or may not take her feelings into account depending on the judge you have.

Some have the attitude that you would make your child go to school if she didn’t want to and you make her brush her teeth so the parents have to make the decisions and not the children. Others may be more sympathetic but they often find a child will favour a parent while they are with them and then change their mind when they are with the other.

I'm totally conflicted as I can understand his points completely and in agreement with Queen and Eloise, but then as Pushing and many others have said, how can I send her when she's distraught?
My family are telling me that I'm not listening to her or supporting her if I'm controlled by him.
Had a long conversation with him earlier where he accused me of not co-parenting effectively, being obstructive, unreasonable, trying to stop her relationship with them etc, but what do I do when she's begging me not to make her go?
In the end, a decision had to be made - I've told him that he visits her here today or that I take her there on the proviso that she can come back to me if she's upset. Not heard back from him yet.

Teaches - my ex is saying exactly that, that I'll make her go to school even if she cries not to, so he's asking why I'm not working with them to reinforce that she has two homes and that's the way it's going to stay.

I am torn in this, as a step mum to 2 and mum to 1 I can see both sides of this.

On one hand, you say this has only come about in last 4 months, so what happened 4 months ago that started it? That is what you and your ex need to find out. Then you can start working in finding a way to resolve it.

On the other, if she is that distraught then I wouldn't expect her feelings to be ignored.

We have almost the reverse of this in that it is my dscs mum who refuses to listen to or acknowledge their wants over contact. They are 12 & 14 so more than old enough to decide. They want 50/50 and alternative Christmases as they are sick to death of being shuttled backwards and forwards on Christmas day but she will not entertain it. She has agreed to this year (her year) but has stated she will not agree to the reverse next year. We are looking into self representation in court in order to force her hand because the kids are miserable.

Hope he starts to listen! Good luck

If I were in your partner's shoes, and one of my children didn't want to live with me to the point of getting distraught about it, I'd suggest that she lived with you all the time and that I came to visit, and spent time building up her trust in me again. Yes, I'd be heartbroken: but I would NOT put my children through such upset and distress if I didn't have to.

There must be a way you can work through this and find out why she's so upset, and what you can do about it. A family therapist might be of some help.

Its a tough one OP. I do think you need to make your daughter aware that if she stays with you it won't be the 'same' as the rest of the time as you need to work. She may have idealised the time with you as you do fun things together, whereas with her Dad she has to rub along with the others. Also a toddler is much more demanding than a baby so the dynamics have changed at her Dads.

Maybe talk to you ex about how DD sees her time with you, suggest she stays with you while you work. She'll be expected to play on her own, read, do art - basically amuse herself while you do everything you need to do. Also get her to help with chores around the house. It sounds like her time with you is quite special - which is lovely. But maybe a bit more real world is needed so she doesn't think that if she's with you all the time then it will always be fun. If you present it to your ex as showing DD the reality he may think it's a good idea. He does have a point about working together to deal with her anxiety.

It also may be a bit like kids being dropped at school or nursery. Sobbing going in, but happy once settled. At the end of the day you'll have to share contact somehow so it's best to try and fix the issue. We had the same but in reverse. Kids didn't want to go back to their mothers. But we stuck with it, helped to teach them to speak their minds so she understood the issues and slowly things changed for the better. And they were young too - they just needed to find their voices about what needed to change to make them happy rather than just run away from the issues. Its super hard, and asking a lot of young kids to learn so early to be assertive. But in the long run its best for everyone.

If she’s so distraught she’s begging constantly to stay with you and ‘the light has gone from her eyes’ and she feels ill with anxiety.

Then yes I would certainly listen to her.

I forced my D.C. to have contact as there was a contact order in place despite them suffering greatly and the repercussions are still being felt almost five years after contact was stopped.

I think suggest to your ex he visits or she does just day visits with him for now.

Definitely agree to the child psychologist and also look into family therapy.

If my D.C. was crying and getting sick and hysterical about going to school I’d be investigating as to why not ignoring her and forcing her to go.

I do agree with wheresthebeach that perhaps you should cut back on the zoo/outings/theatre. Not saying that's the whole root of the issue by any means, but it would show your ex that you were trying to make it work better for DD.

In fact, can ex take on some of these outings? Obviously this has to be negotiated with his new partner, but if ex could take both girls on some 'fun' outings, and also manage some "dull but cuddly" one to one time with just DD (perhaps when new partner & kids are seeing their family?) your dd would not feel so insecure here.

I must say it annoys me when people say 6-year-olds shouldn't have a say though. She needs to fit in with everyone else, yes, but she should be allowed an opinion. Nevertheless, there could be an aspect on you and her 'feeding' the anxiety between you.

Can you suggest these options to your ex as your ideas of how to get her confidence back?

Also like others I cannot understand why if he is on £120 k (and presumably new partner earns too), all three kids are squashed into one room. I don't suppose her stepsister is crazy about sharing with the toddler either, yet they already have one spare room and tbh, really ought to try to arrange a room for each child. This is not going to work as the girls get older, is it? If your ex really cares about his dd he should be working hard to make a home for her.

It must be hard for her to go from a quiet house to a busy family house. Perhaps he could put a bed in the spare room so she can get away ?

I know she doesn't want to go but she's 6 and he's her dad so has as much rights as you to see her,

It doesn’t sound like there’s a compromise to be had between you and her father just yet and therapy is probably the way to go. She needs an independent advocate.

I'd take her to the doctor now, as you're worried about her high anxiety when she thinks about going to her dads.

Then keep her with you , but with the 'back up' of the doctors appointment/help to show exH that you're not being deliberately difficult

Document everything- all your daughters anxieties and sleeplessness, bad dreams etc, all the visits to the GP re her MH.

I wouldn't like to spend my life 50/50 at two homes either.

I also can't understand why a parent would be so insistent on an arrangement that is making his child distraught. He's thinking only of himself here and the "perfect family" that he thinks he has.

I would be looking at reducing her time staying with him and then slowly building it up again - eg reduce to one night a fortnight, then one a week, two a week etc. Although from what you've said it's unlikely he'd agree to that.

OP you said your ex is very manipulative? Is that right? Makes you think you’re wrong and he’s right?

He’s doing it now - spinning the “right” lines about a united front etc. Well yes that works but behind the scenes you have to agree. And you don’t, so that needs changing.

He is not listening to your dd. He’s overriding her thoughts and dismissing them even though she is 6, and able to express herself.

I would hold your line with him. Do not be persuaded by his arguments - hold your line. Your dd is upset and someone needs to advocate for her, and that needs to be you.

Also I strongly suspect he is being like this because it’s hurting you.

It's a tricky one and must be awful seeing your DD so upset.

I hated the times where I was given a choice whether to visit my DM or not as I felt like I couldn't win and would be letting one of them down whatever I decided.

I much preferred being at my Dad's house as it was bigger and we had more fun, but that wouldn't have been good enough reason to lose my relationship with my DM.

Then again, it you're concerned about your ex's controlling/abusive behaviour reducing contact is definitely a good idea.

I agree with the other posters suggestions of a counsellor to help to get to the bottom of things.

Believieit - you're exactly right.
He's very clever, very manipulative, and known for being a c*nt at work. As mentioned earlier in the thread, one of his young graduates had to leave as he was gas lighting her.
He's clever in that all of his arguments make sense, on paper.

Heckypeck - I don't honestly know if just because he's controlling with me, it's enough to reduce contact with him for DD, as he clearly loves her. My family think he's being totally unreasonable in order to control me, and that he doesn't have DD best interests at heart, but I don't know.

People like that are good at being politicians but you have to know how to deal with them.

Usually it’s about thinking before any interactions about his arguments, what you want to achieve and keeping clear in your mind why you disagree. Sometimes it’s best to not even engage - just let him talk and talk. You can ask him to explain fully why he’s right. Keep going, asking why several times. “E.g why is that then, ok well can you set out why that is the case, right ok well why....” usually you’ll get to a point where it’s obvious he’s talking shit.

Do not be intimidated by him. I would definitely reduce contact because it isn’t in the best interests of your dd to have little space, nor is it best for her to be so upset etc etc.

What exactly can he do to stop you?

Just had about an hour conversation with DD, where she's said things like she wishes her life wasn't like this, that she wishes she'd never been born, etc, and why isn't there a plan in place to stop her being sad. Heartbreaking.
Ultimately she says she wants us all together in one house.
I've asked what the differences are in each house, and she's said that there are too many people at daddy's, that they don't have the right toys, that the baby can come and smash the toys. But she says she does like sharing a room, and that she does miss daddy some of the time, but not much, and that she still only wants to visit there.
I've explained that if she's with me all the time, i wouldn't be able to do fun things all the time, but she says she wouldn't mind.

Believe it - the thing is, his arguments ring true, they do make sense, most of them. He presents it in such a way that there's no way I can argue back.
His response to my message of earlier was that we can't go back on previously arranged plans, that he isn't going to visit her at mine, and that we can't tell her that he'll bring her back if she gets upset at his.