Husband has has private lap dances...

[msevs]

...and lied. I found out last Sunday after a weekend away with his mates, when a text came through on his phone. I glanced at it and it was from one of the guys with the words ‘strip club’ in it. I confronted him about it and he said some of the other guys went, but he didn’t. I didn’t believe him, he then said he had gone in but that was it. I told him to stop lying, and he then said “well you have to have a dance there, don’t you”. So basically it turns out he paid for a private dance, and not just this once, but on three different occasions. First time was Christmas trip last year, two months after the birth of our second child.

To make matters worse, we were only married a month ago. Three weeks later and he’s paying a woman to strip naked for him! I feel so betrayed. I heard all the excuses, he was drunk, it was peer pressure, he didn’t enjoy it. I don’t believe him, since he’s been three times. He told me he’d never have a ‘proper’ affair, as if I’m supposed to be grateful. He didn’t see this as a problem because it was a transaction. He did apologise and said he wouldn’t do it again, but this is only because I found out, otherwise I know he would just have continued doing it.

I feel so betrayed. I also feel like such a mug, I bet him and his mates have had a good laugh at the fact that I’ve been kept in the dark. He just isn’t the man I thought I married.

I don’t know why I’m posting. I just don’t know where to go from here. I was really looking forward to this Christmas as it was going to be our first Christmas as a married couple, but now I don’t even want to look at him

The thread was never about me, it turned into slanging match by a bunch of do women who didn't agree with a point I made ,because they are sexist and have an agenda they won't admit too. They can't take the fact women can and do objectify men ,but that's ok I know what I've seen in my life ,pity there so blinkered .ill leave this thread to the short sighted ,ignorant bye

Please do leave the thread rover as the row over your personal views about women has drowned out support for the OP, which is what this thread was for.
OP hope you are okay, how are you feeling?

Is this to be your final flounce, Rover?

it turned into slanging match by a bunch of do women who didn't agree with a point I made ,because they are sexist and have an agenda they won't admit too

I have no real desire to become part of the problem on this thread, but that's not strictly true, @roverman. This was a support thread for an individual rather than a place to discuss these things in general. That is largely what people were objecting to.

And it wasn't just a bunch of women because there was a man in the midst too and you were rude to him once you realised.

Also, no one is saying that some women don't behave in loud, rowdy and, frankly, unattractive way on occasions, but that wasn't the subject of this thread.

I do think you missed the point about toxic masculinity. It's horrible and it underpins pretty much all of this. That's not to say "it's men what are the problem", but the very narrow gender roles. Toxic masculinity affects men just as negatively as it affects women, just in different ways.

It's what means men get called names when they don't join in with the braying pack mentality of strip clubs and it's what makes it difficult for men to stand up for women when they see/hear misogyny (e.g. did you see all the #metoo stuff? In some cases, men could have stopped that happening. But didn't. It's what means that men committing the #metoo offences thought they were acceptable because women aren't equal to them...

But it's also what means men are viewed with suspicion when they are seen at the local swimming pool (a thread on that recently); or when they feel out of place at parent and toddler groups as SAHDs (a friend of mine); or when their mates/employers/society wonders what kind of man allows his wife to be the breadwinner whilst he looks after the kids (same friend as above); or when mothers are prioritised over fathers in terms of parental leave, which leads to fathers' roles in the family being reduced to 'provider', which means the relationships often aren't there, which means men still feel it in family courts when they have to fight for residence of children when the mother really isn't capable (happened to a man I know); and it's what means that suicide is the highest killer of men. It's because children are women's work; real men aren't soft; mothers are more important than fathers; real men don't cry; real men don't have feelings other than anger - because anything else makes you soft. Man up, grow some balls and deal with it... men are told...

All of that is not the fault of feminism. That is what toxic masculinity does to a society. I know men who aren't buff, who aren't 'alpha males', who don't go to strip clubs or watch porn because it "feels wrong" but they also feel they have lost Man Points as a result.

Of course, as in any movement or belief system, there are women who call themselves feminists but are actually more on the misandrist side of things. But that's a person feeling, views held by individual women. Misogyny is a problem at a societal level and is written into our laws and our practices and our daily lives and are often accepted by women too - there are people who are against maternity leave/pay; women (on MN) who have said they wouldn't employ a woman of childbearing age in case they took maternity leave or time off with a sick child (people never say that about men who might be fathers); women being embarrassed of having periods; single mothers are vilified but very little is said of the men who abandon them...

There are threads on here at the moment, the mansplaining one and the close call ones, which show the effect of toxic masculinity. Men who don't take women seriously at work even when they are better qualified and more experienced than them, when they wouldn't even question a man and the close call experiences are all without exception (that I've seen) examples of actual or near physical/sexual attacks on women by men.

That is what toxic masculinity is about. It's not as simple as saying "Dreamboys is no different to a man getting a lapdance". It's structurally, socially, ideologically, politically different. And it's not about hating men. I'm a mother to a son, I had a father, I've had relationships with men, I have friends and colleagues who are men... I don't hate men at all.

Toxic masculinity harms everyone. Men and women. Feminism wants to create equality to make everyone's experiences better for them and those around them.

I hope you are OK today too, OP

Bloody well said @star.. I wish I was that eloquent..

Star that’s the Mumsnet post of the 2017 for me. Well said

Yes..exactly what Star said

Star

Amazing post, star. Going to read it again!

star a lot of what you describe could just be explained as men and women being nasty in different ways. Both men and women judge each other when they deviate from a norm. Sometimes this hurts men, sometimes women. Fortunately society is becoming more tolerant and roles are becoming less stereotypical.

There are loads of women who call certain men wimps, who comment on their physical appearance, exclude them from playgroups, who are happy to see them work all hours, who expect them to pay the main bills while also demanding equal opportunities. But there's little public discussion of this here or anywhere else because men do not have the same public licence to complain about women as vice versa. All this is not the result of "toxic masculinity" or "toxic femininity", just that people behave badly much of the time. Most male violence is directed at other men. Some of it is directed at women. That doesn't mean we live in a "misogynist" society, just that people (mostly men) are violent some times.

"Misogyny written into our laws": what tosh. Might have been true 50 years ago, not any more.

"Misogyny written into our laws": what tosh. Might have been true 50 years ago, not any more.

Very misguided of you. Next you’ll be saying women have equality because that’s enshined in law too 🙄

Urgh... but it isn’t explained by ‘people being nasty’....

Please do some independent reading about what toxic masculinity is and why it has been described as a social phenomenon.

The research into the consequences for public health, social problems, relationships etc etc.

The whole point of calling the phenomenon toxic masculinity is to differentiate it from being a biological male, to describe problems with socialisation of biological males which cause measurable problems in society that can be traced back to socialisation of biological males and certain cultural expectations of biological males.

This really is not a controversial term. It is a well studied and well analysed and well described sociological phenomenon because it is implicated time and time again in a variety of social problems which affect all members of society; men, women, children etc

Do you understand why it is important for things like this to be described? Why people (men and women) who have been harmed by it need to understand why they are being harmed? Why it isn’t good enough to just say ‘people can be nasty?

It is because things like men’s life expectancy and women’s economic rights are of equal importance to people concerned with gender equality or even just generally with society or public health or economics etc

Through study we have found that the socialisation of men and women into restrictive gender roles, but particularly the socialisation of males into gender based roles that dictate being male requires the use of power, control and domination and the subjugation and rejection of traits, behaviours, skills etc that are considered to be bad because they are considered to be ‘female’, is what causes a variety of really significant social problems in society.

And the fact is that actually, though there are problems within certain sects of feminism, they are not important enough to require a term like ‘toxic feminity’ on a societal level because they have not been linked through research to major societal problems. This is because feminism is a counter culture operating within a patriarchal system.

"Misogyny written into our laws": what tosh. Might have been true 50 years ago, not any more.

But many of those laws haven't been revisited in that time.

Rape within marriage has only been illegal since 1991 and some people still believe that a man has the 'right' to take sex from his wife if she refuses it. And some women still don't believe they have the right to refuse. There are threads on here almost monthly where a woman describes having been raped by her husband. She is upset about his behaviour but believes it can't be rape because they are married.

That isn't happening 50 years ago. That is happening now.

And that says absolutely nothing to invalidate the experiences of individual men with abusive women... because we are not talking about anecdotal individual experiences, we are talking about the broad societal level.

If you are simply reading ‘toxic masculinity’ as ‘men are horrible’ then yes, this is unacceptable ignorance that is your fault because you haven’t bothered to actually understand what this very standard, well defined term which is in general use in the mainstream means.

There are loads of women who call certain men wimps, who comment on their physical appearance, exclude them from playgroups, who are happy to see them work all hours, who expect them to pay the main bills while also demanding equal opportunities. But there's little public discussion of this here or anywhere else because men do not have the same public licence to complain about women as vice versa. All this is not the result of "toxic masculinity" or "toxic femininity", just that people behave badly much of the time. Most male violence is directed at other men. Some of it is directed at women. That doesn't mean we live in a "misogynist" society, just that people (mostly men) are violent some times

But everything you have described here is toxic masculinity!

All of it.

It's why men are violent (towards each other, not just women). Men are brought up that boys don't cry. When boys show compassion, you are right, they are 'wimps'. That's not how toxic masculinity allows boys to behave. In fact, the only acceptable emotion for boys and men is anger that they demonstrate through aggression. Then we are told "boys will be boys"... If someone wrongs you, you deail with it Like A Man and punch them.

Men don't have the same public licence to have their voices heard precsisely because men are supposed to Deal With It Like Men - either by burying their emotions or sorting it out with their fists. Because it's women who 'complain'; women who 'talk'; women who 'feel'. Men just Get On With It.

And yes, you are right, it is mostly women who view the men at playgroups with suspicion, precisely because they're so unusual there. What sort of man...? Well the sort who hasn't bought into the same prescribed gender roles as you have.

Not only that, but the workplace (until very recently) hasn't supported men taking time off work to be with the children and society hasn't respected men who stay at home with the children nor women who have 'prioritised' earning money and their career over being at home with their children. It's all part of the same thing. What sort of man would let his wife be the breadwinner? What sort of man wants to stay at home with the children all day? What sort of man doesn't want to further his career? What sort of woman puts her career before her family? What sort of woman would settle for a man who is happy to let her support him? What sort of woman isn't a nurturing earth mother who'd happily delegate this role to her husband? It's all part of the same problem; two sides of the same coin.

Women internalise misogyny just as much as men do - that's why it's so damaging. One of the most misogynistic people I have ever met is my mother. That's how ingrained it is. She thought it made her better than other women to see women for what they were; expose their weaknesses and diminish them. It didn't make her 'better' than other women to say the things that men say.

But that's what toxic masculinity does. It makes everything that is woman; everything that is feminine; everything that is 'soft'; everything that is 'warm'; everything that isn't 'strong' seem and sound bad, weak, inefficient, unproductive, wrong. And it makes 'hard', 'strong', 'unemotional', 'masculine' seem desirable, productive, and right.

There should be a discussion about it. About all of it. Because you have just used examples of toxic masculinity to prove that it doesn't exist. When what you have described is exactly that.

OK, fair enough, let's say there's some toxic masculinity out there. Would you say there was toxic femininity as well? I'd say there was plenty. Some of it takes the form of women attacking other women, sometimes they attack men. Sometimes it's on purely personal grounds, sometimes it's race, gender, weight, nationality, class or something else. People are pretty toxic a lot of the time but if all you ever talk about is toxic masculinity that suggests that you only see a problem there.

I haven't "bought into" any prescribed gender roles, thanks very much. I am glad they're fading, long may it continue.

star - it's 27 years since that nasty legal doctrine was overturned in the UK, should have been far earlier. Can't you find any better examples?

Oh and I've used ' ' around the adjectives of 'warm', 'soft', 'strong', 'hard', 'unemotional' because they are very gendered words that we associate with men and women almost as a biological imperative. Except that they are not.

We all know women who are hard and strong. We all know men who are warm and soft. Well I certainly do. But those women who are hard and strong are described as being 'like a man' and those men are described as being 'in touch with their feminine side'.

No. It really is the case that 'some people are...' and 'some people are not...' but that's not how it works at a wider societal level.

star - it's 27 years since that nasty legal doctrine was overturned in the UK, should have been far earlier. Can't you find any better examples?

Well, as a woman, I think that is a pretty fine example actually. Also, I am having a chat on an internet forum on a Saturday morning whilst waiting to go and collect one of my children from a weekend activity. I'm not writing an academic paper so the fact it's 27 years old is irrelevant. It's also still relevant today in many women's lives.

As offred said, there are, of course, examples of 'toxic feminisim' and they affect people on a personal and local level, but it's not seen on a wider societal level because women aren't as influential in the media or in business or in government as men and, sadly, the ones that are, have got there by being 'one of the boys'.

I had a 'friend' at university who was proud of the fact that, when she worked In Business as a manager, she had forced a woman who had taken the morning off work to have a termination back into work in the afternoon. She told me that compassion was weak and that "that woman" didn't deserve any extra time for a woman's issue. She said that, in order to succeed, she had to behave 'like a man'.

dogfish I think you really need to get that this isn't about men vs women or boys against girls.

What you have ignored in my posts is where I have agreed with you that this impacts upon men just as negatively as it does women, but in different ways.

There suicide and mental health stats around men is shocking and it's precisely because men have not, historically, been encouraged to talk about their feelings. It makes them a wuss, or a wimp, or a poof... It's why so many people said it was a positive when Prince Harry talked about his own mental health experiences, because he is very much A Man and yet he admitted to mental health problems, to crying, to counselling...

I read a thread on here last year sometime, I think it was, where a young (20s?) woman had posted about a man that she'd been on a date with who told her that he sometimes cried at films. She posted that she'd found it really off putting and all she wanted was a Real Man who didn't cry and wasn't weak. She was utterly lambasted for that. Toxic masculinity was mentioned (in ideology if not by name).

Again, it’s not about there being ‘some toxic’ whatever you want to say, ‘out there’, it’s about describing how we (and it is usually mothers) socialise male people and what that is shown to do to culture around gender generally, and how that culture then reinforces that socialisation and how it then can be shown to affect society negatively in a number of ways.

No-one is saying toxic masculinity is a thing perpetrated by men against women. It is a description of how our beliefs about gender roles (and particularly the belief that men are violent dominators) harm all of society, men women and children.

I haven't "bought into" any prescribed gender roles, thanks very much. I am glad they're fading, long may it continue.

It did read like I meant you, dogfish, but I meant more you, the person asking the question "what sort of man...?" it wasn't clear from what I'd written.