Engagement Ring

[KKOKK]

Been with my bf for just over 3 years, but knew him as friends for about 5 years before that when we dated on and off.

He asked me if I wanted to get married in the summer, and I said yes, and considered we had become engaged...he then termed it a pre-engagement, which I found a bit disappointing. Obviously I worried he didn’t actually want to get married etc...

We moved in together 4 months ago, just after the non proposal. Both sets of parents are a bit miffed that we have decided to live together without the “commitment” of a ring. Anytime we are with my family especially they make jokes about rings and weddings. My BF announced we would get married next year. Still no ring.

We have just put down our deposit on a house and the jokes about a ring have increased.

He got a bit angry about it all this week after a family dinner and said he had a plan to go and speak with my dad and ask my mum for my grans ring to propose with but now he doesn’t see why he should just to please my family and now he just wants to do his own thing.

I sort of imagined getting engaged (which I thought we’d already done) would be romantic, but now I feel like he will grudgenly go through the motions just to get people off our backs.

I would be really happy to wear my grans ring, but I now feel like that will just be another thing we get picked on about that he didn’t buy me something of my own.

Sorry that’s so long!! I just feel like I am stuck in the middle of my family who aren’t really massively happy with my choices, and a grumpy BF who feels irritable about having to propose

There is a lot in this thread that takes me back to my mid twenties when DW and I were about to get engaged.

There is a lot in this thread which makes me despair for any young man who partners with someone who is more successful, more grounded and with better prospects than them. Despite protestations to the contrary, society clearly has not moved away from seeing the main role of men as a provider.

My MiL in particular did not approve of me (we still have a business like relationship tbh). My FiL was much more laid back but it was clear from the moment that we were serious that MiL did not think I had good prospects, was not financially stable and was a poor alternative to DW's previous partner who was a Medical graduate (despite the fact he was an absolute arse to her according to BiL).

I had sweet FA in the bank when we got engaged. I lived month to month and drove a crappy car that I loved. I wasn't 100% sure of what I wanted to do and, worse still, had dropped out of a good university course to work in sales (not a proper profession)

DW proposed to me (leap year) and while I was over the moon about it, I was also secretly gutted as I knew I could not afford a ring, would not be able to pay anything towards the wedding and the cost of a honeymoon was beyond me - I had only had one cheap holiday in the 5 years years prior.

We announced our engagement and FiL was the only one who looked anywhere near pleased. I suspect he was just happy his DD was happy - even though I was not a good match.

MiL then started on about a ring, a date, plans and a honeymoon - all the things I dreaded.

One public comment from MiL in front of her extended family about the ring needing to cost a month's gross salary at least "but I expect that's beyond you at the moment" was quite hurtful really.

We went out to get a ring and, to her credit, DW deliberately chose one closer to a week's wage as she knew her mum was correct.

I convinced her I would go back later in the week when I got paid and buy the ring because I did not have the cash. Truth is I needed to get it on credit and when I went back, failed the credit check. Cue a call to my parents to ask them to lend me the money.

MiL did not approve of the engagement ring - at all. I got my granny's wedding ring to give to DW as her wedding ring and this was seen as another example of my financial unsuitability as mum paid for it to be re sized.

I moved cities when we got married and had to take a lower paid job as there were none at the role or salary I had before. Three days before the wedding MiL told us both she gave us 6 months after she heard about a row DW and I had - part of which was financial.

DW paid for the honeymoon, her savings were the deposit for our mortgage. Her salary paid the bills, mine paid for shopping and entertainment.

MiL constantly asked when I was going to get a proper job and be able to support a family - "don't bother to answer DW, I know the answer is never"

Twentyish years on, I have earned significantly more than DW for the last 10 years, similar for the 5 years prior and less for the 5 years before that.

I had a failed business and this was a sign she was right all along (with a sly mention that Dr Ex had moved to X prosperous village in a big house etc).

The point I am making is that no one here would condone the view that a female who was less financially stable, with fewer prospects than her intended was proof she was a waster, fannylodger or gold digger. Everyone would see her potential contribution as a SAHM as equally valuable.

No one would see any sign of wanting to delay things for financial reasons as being a bad sign in a female.

OP - your DP may be sick of the pressure. He will see that your family think of him as financially unsuitable but be conflicted by the need to be seen to be doing something to move things on.

He may well be disappointed in himself that he did not plan better and wait until he could afford a decent ring before proposing. He may have just been carried away by the romantic moment and later describing it as a 'pre proposal' is a cack handed way of trying to buy time to get the money together (which admittedly could be years).

Have a proper conversation with him about marriage and wedding plans. Does he know whether you are bothered about the value of the ring or not? Does he know starting to make plans now doesn't mean you can't change the wedding to a couple of years time rather than next year?

Are you united in front of your parents wrt how you see your plans and future life together and the importance (or lack of it) of a party costing £000s to that?

He may be a cocklodger and all the things people are saying here. It does not sound like it to me though and only you know whether it is something you can work through together.

Sorry for the length of the post but I wish you both the best and hope you end up in a place that is right for you two (not your parents etc) whatever that may be

Great post ZeroFeedback

There is some real sexist bollocks being spouted on this thread for sure.

My boyfriend is a musician and I work full time in a professional role. I work and earn way more than he does. He does 90% of the cooking and housework. It’s a fantastic arrangement for everyone and we are very happy. Not all ‘artists’ are selfish cocklodgers. Some actually make great husbands and fathers, even if they don’t earn big money.

Why are we all buying into this toxic idea that men have to be the main breadwinners? What happened to equality?

And to the poster who said she’d never date an artist because of the lack of financial security, isn’t that a bit shallow? So the size of a guys wallet is more important than anything else then? I earn my own money and am financially secure all on my own. Don’t need a man for that!

zero thanks for sharing your experience. I don't think it was pressure that made him propose, we obviously had a fair bit of background in 8 years worth on on and off so when we got together again we both knew what we wanted, from that point of view I think marriage was just what would be on the cards as a natural consequence. He had had his time to wander the earth and I had had time to establish a career. The time away from each other improved us, and allowed us to be independent enough that a decision to be together was a decision we could make in light of our experiences apart.

I don't think he felt under pressure in the summer I think he just said what was on his mind. The pressure has come in the last few months when having announced we are getting married, nothing substantial has materialised.

In terms of a wedding it would be a really small affair, close family and friends only, and his parents have a pretty big garden that we could hold a reception in if we wanted. When we have discussed it it has been about getting married rather than having a wedding, though obviously there are still costs involved which are outside the norm.

I don't really agree with diamonds as a stone as I have opinions on the ethics behind their mining (which he knows about) so again, if he was getting a ring it wouldn't be massively expensive even if he wanted it to be because it would be with a much cheaper stone. I think he may have got himself tied up in proving he is capable of providing something nice, which is why he has focused on the ring more, but I could be wrong about that. His response is always that he wants to do it right.

I will speak with him more and with my family but at the minute i think the ring thing has become a problem when it should be a celebration.

Psychadelic I agree completely. My bf has a bit of a dreamers streak but he is also a really happy man and is excited about life in a way that is infectious. I think he will be a brilliantly creative dad as he is partner, in contrast to my default position of anxiety and stress.

I think you both sound lovely and like a great couple.

And your parents need to stfu.

I don't think it was pressure that made him propose

Absolutely, I am sorry if this is what I seemed to be saying. The pressure I referred to was wrt to the ring and wedding plans meaning he is starting to come out with some odd ideas such as using your grandmother's ring when he probably knows that would be frowned upon and is probably not wants he wants.

His response is always that he wants to do it right

I relate to this - In many ways I wished my DW had not proposed to me. That way I could have got my act together and got her a 'proper' ring.

Truth is she did not want an expensive one and loves the one I got in the end, but I did not know this for sure at the time.

Your description of being sat on the bench where you had your first kiss etc is something I can relate to as well. I get some powerful emotions when I drive along a certain road as it reminds me of a night DW and I sat chatting in a lay-by until dawn a few days after we met.

It is the sort of place I could imagine myself having proposed unplanned given the right 'mood' and timing.

I think your DP may have proposed to you unplanned too. He will have meant it completely I am sure, but the practical realities of getting the ring, setting a date etc may not have come into his head until after he is artistic and a dreamer after all

That does not mean he regrets it or that he won't listen when you tell him what type of ring you actually want.

PS for my 25th anniversary I hope to be able to get DW the sort of ring neither of us would have ever imagined being able to get - just to thank her for having faith in me when few others did (or sticking with me despite knowing I had no prospects).

@ZeroFeedback

What a great post... and I think you're right... society still expects the man to be the main provider.

A dear friend mine said her mum snubbed her now DH when he met them. (Describing him to others as the boy Sally is going around with) He had no job.. seemed to be a permanent student and she asked how he intended to support her DD while claiming 'the dole' while her DD was the holder of a master's degree.

He was tough and persisted in trying to win them over.

They still aren't his biggest fan... but my dear friend passed away and they fear not seeing the grandchildren if they say too much.

Oh and he came good as well ... earning way more than my friend once he finished the PhD.

The point I am making is that no one here would condone the view that a female who was less financially stable, with fewer prospects than her intended was proof she was a waster, fannylodger or gold digger. Everyone would see her potential contribution as a SAHM as equally valuable

I'm afraid I really can't go along with this. "No one" and "everyone" imply pretty sweeping statements, and while I agree there's certainly some sexism on MN, there remain some of us who are capable of seeing things in terms of balance and attitude rather than just according to gender

And I'm genuinely thrilled for you that everything's worked out so well in your own marriage

The point I am making is that no one here would condone the view that a female who was less financially stable, with fewer prospects than her intended was proof she was a waster, fannylodger or gold digger. Everyone would see her potential contribution as a SAHM as equally valuable

As a committed feminist it's not the role reversal I have a problem with. It's the fact that this whole time the OP has painstakingly explained how she is going to facilitate her dp's dreams and ambitions with both compromise, sacrifice and financial contribution; whilst seemingly expressing very few of her own ambitions and desires for her own life and even less mention of what it is her dp intends to give or do for her to enable these.

Now of course this is only a snapshot and may be wide of the mark regarding the full picture, but forgive me for thinking that that would be just another way for a woman to be living her life for the fulfilment of her male partner, albeit doing it from the office under the guise of "progress".

Op, not saying that's defo the case but keep your eye on it. Your aspirations in life should be equally important and your partner should contribute equally to your achieving those, even if that contribution is not financial.

BTW op everything you'd be getting out of this - house, kids, job - you could have without your dp, but everything he's getting he couldn't have without you facilitating it. I just urge you to address the potential imbalance going forwards, if in reality there is one there.

Just to say I don’t think it’s a universal view that the man should be the breadwinner. Absolutely nothing wrong with one partner of either sex earning more outside the home.

The issue I was pointing out specifically with this man is that he seems to be setting situations up to be disappointed and grumpy - wanting to be an artist is great but it involves sacrifice and getting on with it. Or at some point saying it isn’t going to happen and getting on with real life. I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if 10 years later he isn’t an artist and is blaming OP for not pursuing his dreams. Similarly, people propose with budgets ranging from £5-£1000s. Or no ring. Or just a simple discussion. Any of those things work. What doesn’t work is doing a half assed job of something and then blaming others for quite natural consequences. He could have just said we don’t need a ring to prove our commitment. Or bought a cheap ring. Or said you’re saving up for an expensive ring.

It’s thay grumpiness and blame and resentment that ring alarm bells for me. But obviously we don’t know the full story of your relationship.

I don’t think the sharing of assets is a big deal. If you chose to get married then everything should be shared anyway - that’s my view. And if he does more childcare then if you split of course he should be compensated for it. But I’d advise anyone bringing a lot more financially into a relationship to do so with eyes wide open on what would happen if there was a split.

I don’t know how anyone gets married if him fluffing the proposal is grounds enough to damn him.

OMG you're going to do it aren't you ? You're actually going to marry him aren't you ?

So many good examples and good advice has been given to you. But, let me guess, he's smoothed it over and pretty much manipulated you into 'not going on about it.'

He's adamant he wants to get married next year. So much for not wanting to feel pressured. You're going ring shopping this weekend. Why ? I thought the ring he had with him on non-proposal weekend was nice.

Can't propose just because someone else was proposing just then up ahead of you ? There's billions of people on this planet, there will never be a day when other marriage proposals aren't being made.

I see years of bait being swallowed by the OP. Years of excuses, reasons, tantruming, time wasting etc.

It begs the question of why did you start this thread in the first place if you're now pretty much saying, 'oh never mind'. Or should that be never mind, he's said...........

Well done, good girl. Says your prospective fiancée.

Both OP and her boyfriend need to grow up.

Warning: I see train wreck marriage ahead. (Even I'm bored of her excuses.)

the OP has painstakingly explained how she is going to facilitate her dp's dreams and ambitions with both compromise, sacrifice and financial contribution; whilst seemingly expressing very few of her own ambitions and desires for her own life and even less mention of what it is her dp intends to give or do for her to enable these

op everything you'd be getting out of this - house, kids, job - you could have without your dp, but everything he's getting he couldn't have without you facilitating it.

We often hear the argument that men have the luxury of being able to develop their careers (as if that's the main way we get fulfilment in life ) only because their female partner has chosen to divest theirs and take up the role of SAHM or work part time in a less demanding career path.

The same argument is applied when the female has no career ambitions or is in a lower paid role.

Quite correctly, it is seen as a partnership in which the man's career benefits because someone takes up the slack elsewhere.

Many people would not see anything wrong in a man working long hours in a demanding professional role while their partner pursued artistic ambitions because their partner's contribution as a mother and head of the home life allows them to do so.

It may be that this is one of the relationships where the role is reversed. The OP's partner will be able to facilitate the OP's career and home life and this should be accepted as an outcome of their different financial and professional statuses.

It’s thay grumpiness and blame and resentment that ring alarm bells for me.

I get that, and agree to an extent. Without reading the full thread again, I can only really recall the grumpiness following the 'jokes' which were made about the ring etc

When my MiL made her comment in front of family, I am sure she would have laughed it off as a joke had she been challenged. I am sure my DW did not see how hurtful this, and other similar (but less public) comments, were to me.

The balance of power in these 'joking' scenarios does not lie with the OP's partner. I could understand him being upset if there have been a number of them.

None of us would like to be made to feel as if we were not good enough for the person we love - especially if we already feel a bit that way already

Ok fair enough when you said ages ago that he just expected the wedding to kind of happen I wrongly conflated that with him being like that about everything but you’ve since said he does an equal share domestically. This would be key for me if you are likely to working while he runs things at home , someone posted a link to a great animation the Guardian I think about the mental load on women....

I'm an artist, what kind of art does your bf make ?

I'm asking cause there is generally a kind of path of 'making it' which to most artists is making a living.....not being famous! And maybe we could make suggestions. Having a career making stuff is pretty unpredictable and is sometimes based on trend. Either way dedicating a substantial amount of time to it should have opened some doors, are any galleries interested in him ?

Just to add, I’m not down on relationships, marriage or role reversed traditional relationships. In my circle of closest Mum friends, we all earn more than our male partners, and don’t find any problems with this, nor do they.

One of the couples, she is a full time high powered corporate financial worker, he is a musician who works most weekend evenings, and does the majority of the childcare. However, he is very warm, calm, loving, and devoted to supporting her and their children. He doesn’t get sulky or overwhelmed, and hasn’t left her at times when he felt his music was more important then their future. He is more sensitive to the needs of others, and more in tune with others’ states of mind, than she is. It’s a very good match, and a well-balanced relationship.

OP, maybe it’s true that your partner is all of those things and your future together will be rosy. But that isn’t particularly the picture you’ve painted of him so far.

Thanks to those who have tried to see the other side of things. It’s nice to hear some positive stories of relationships with dreamers working out.

He’s rarely a grump, it’s just the sort of passive aggressive jokes that are wearing on him I think. Which I also think is fair enough.

I don’t think either of us need to”grow up” and I didn’t think we are destined for a failed marriage.

But who can predict the future.

Thanks for all the help, it’s good to get outside perspective sometimes

Gosh OP, you really do have the romantic rose-tinted blinkers superglued on, don't you? There are so many alarm bells going off here but you just don't want to hear it.

I just don’t really see that there are massive issues to be honest, maybe I am just too close to it all, but some people have stories of success

I feel like the thread is moving on a bit from being perhaps helpful to the OP to sort of piling on her for not leaving her partner. We never really know the full picture here, so I hope some of the advice has been useful, but I wish you well OP and hope you are happy whatever decision you take!

It's possible for an artist to work with a jeweler and design a ring that is both reasonable in cost and meaningful to you both. Most of the artists I know have designed their rings when they got engaged. You also might look into man-made gemstones which can be quite lovely and have become very popular in recent years.

If you suggest that he designs a ring and your partner shows no enthusiasm, then I'd say maybe you do have a problem. If you change the emphasis from impressing the family to creating something beautiful and meaningful together and he says, not interested, that would worry me. I would hope he'd be intrigued at the possibilities and welcome the chance to use his talent to create something for you that you will treasure forever.

No, you don’t sound grabby. There are somethings though that I think really need sorting out here.....

Firstly, you sound very reasonable and not at all demanding of your partner, but I think you should sit down and talk to him about the things that are important to you. A ring might not be and that’s fine, but the experience of getting engaged should be a bit more special and he should care about that for you. It does sound like he just lets things happen and you do all the leg work, and if you’re ok with that then that’s fine too. But I would do some soul searching and think long term what you do want, will it be fine if for the rest of your life you have to do all the leg work on everything? House, finances, holidays, later children, schools, childcare, after school clubs? Because that gets really tiering and easy to resent. Talk to him about the things you would like him to manage for you both and that an effort needs to be made. That’s how relationships work, making an effort for each other, not one person doing their thing and the other person accepting extra responsibility and working round them.

Secondly, I think you need a strong word with your family. You need to tell them that for you and your partner to have a chance at making your marriage work you need space - believe me a marriage of two is tough, a marriage of six is unworkable. Explain the pressure they are adding and that what makes the relationship work for you and your partner might not be what would work for them, but you are happy and it’s none of their business. I would go so far as to distance yourself from them a bit if they can’t mind their own business. I assume you don’t comment on the flaws in their marriage?

He needs to do the same with his parents.

This will take some back bone all round I know, but I really would urge you to think very carefully here. This is the start of a lifelong marriage to this man, with this set of parents. If you are not firm now on all sides about how you want this to work BEFORE you make commitments that are costly and difficult to get out of, you could end up with this pattern of behaviour from your partner and the two sets on parents on every choice and milestone for the rest of your life.

Personally- I might be prepared to shock your bf slightly, next time he says it a pre engagement say great I don’t want to be married to you anyway and pull back a bit on the house. Get him to show a bit of passion like he wants this, also make him see that it’s not a given that you will just accept and go with everything. It doesn’t seem to occur to him that calling it a pre engagement and going back on the buying of the ring might upset you, or that there are things that you might expect from this relationship for you to say yes. It seems like he feels you are in the bag no matter what, no need to care about asking your dad, buying a ring - checking if you honestly still want one. From experience I would say that I would be worried about this level of complacency at the start. It didn’t set the most loving or valued or considerate of tones for the rest of your relationship. Think about how this might feel after ten years?

Tbh I've come round a bit, op :). You say he's responsible about bills and does his share of housework, so it's not as bad as I imagined. If he continues that way, I can see it working. The danger period is when you're on maternity etc - you taking up more of the housework and it never going back to a fair split even when you're working full-time. People slide into this - I suggest you read 'wifework'.

I do think he sounds petulant regarding this engagement and your parents, and I'd be concerned that that is his norm and how conflict between you will work. Also you sound very passive in your relationship with him (and your parents), so I think you could work on that.

But if you're full of joy and excitement about spending the rest of your life with him, then great.