Engagement Ring

[KKOKK]

Been with my bf for just over 3 years, but knew him as friends for about 5 years before that when we dated on and off.

He asked me if I wanted to get married in the summer, and I said yes, and considered we had become engaged...he then termed it a pre-engagement, which I found a bit disappointing. Obviously I worried he didn’t actually want to get married etc...

We moved in together 4 months ago, just after the non proposal. Both sets of parents are a bit miffed that we have decided to live together without the “commitment” of a ring. Anytime we are with my family especially they make jokes about rings and weddings. My BF announced we would get married next year. Still no ring.

We have just put down our deposit on a house and the jokes about a ring have increased.

He got a bit angry about it all this week after a family dinner and said he had a plan to go and speak with my dad and ask my mum for my grans ring to propose with but now he doesn’t see why he should just to please my family and now he just wants to do his own thing.

I sort of imagined getting engaged (which I thought we’d already done) would be romantic, but now I feel like he will grudgenly go through the motions just to get people off our backs.

I would be really happy to wear my grans ring, but I now feel like that will just be another thing we get picked on about that he didn’t buy me something of my own.

Sorry that’s so long!! I just feel like I am stuck in the middle of my family who aren’t really massively happy with my choices, and a grumpy BF who feels irritable about having to propose

In all seriousness OP, why is he so averse to trying to win your family round? You'd think it would be quite important to him that they'd be on side.

You cannot work as an artist and look after young children. I say this as a (former) artist with young children! It's a full time thing. You may wish to discuss your future plans before committing to a house and marriage; I don't mean to be condescending, I just speak from experience.

You sound lovely; don't put your hopes and dreams aside for his.

You're right Kkok' I was indulging my crystal ball. All I'm trying to say is that it's a well-known trope that relationships where one person is clearly driving do tend to end up with trouble.

Have you considered openly telling your family that you know he's a waster and that's OK by you.

He will ultimately stop working and become a SAHP while you bring in the bacon. He will continue to do some art for pin money and the joy of it, but you will be the breadwinner, he will do the kids and house thing and you are cool with that.

@KKOKK your posts concern me because I could actually predict everything he's come out with and write the timeline of events for you.

No one's saying that he's not a nice man, what people are saying is that he's not relationship material, not unless you're 100% happy to jog along aimlessly and always be the provider who has to micro manage the practical side of things. That can be extremely wearing. It's a relationship based on indulgence rather than respect.

If he spent a year living off an inheritance and nothing actually came of it, I wouldn't think that bodes well for much of a career to be honest. I can totally see where your family's concerns come from. As I said before, this goes much deeper than a ring or a formal marriage proposal.

He’s not a waster though, and I don’t think he’s a waster. They think he’s a waster because he wants to be an artist.

If he ends up staying at home looking after the children whilst I work how is that different for the very many women who do the same? The majority of my friends are stay at home mums, and their husband, father of the children works out of the house

If you haven't explicitly said to your family that you are fully aware you may end up as the breadwinner and are happy with that, then they will probably continue to labour the point because they think you are being naive.

I don't think it's different. That's my point.

But your parents think that makes him a waster. Don't argue about the waster wording, just tell them you know that's how it will be and you are both comfortable with it. Feminism!

Of course, that assumes both you and he are happy with that future and neither of you are secretly ashamed.

Can you be out and proud about the role reversal and that he will never earn the real money?

He may well land a commission that earns more than my salary in the future, I’m proud that he has the courage to dream, it doesn’t embarrass me in the slightest, and if it enbarasses him then he can get a stable job and change things. I see no shame in supporting my family financially if that’s what has to happen.

It IS different though OP. Most couples decide on a stay at home parent based on a number of factors AFTER having the child. Things like earning potential, aptitude at parenting young children, desire to either work or be at home etc. You have to be prepared to compromise and not everyone gets everything they want.

For some people staying at home is a luxury,for others it's a necessary evil. But you're setting yourself up to have no choice, with someone who will have nothing to compromise.

I think you're only going to see what you want to see. Something within you prompted you to start this thread, but I don't think you want answers other than, don't worry.

my family have only become involved since he hasn’t followed through with things. His family are the same

It's not simply about the non proposal or the ring, finances or who might be a stay at home parent. It's about a balanced relationship with someone who knows who they are, what they're about and who absolutely has your back and is commited to you.

The family concerns come from a place or love you know. They won't be anti- boyfriend just for the hell of it. You say yourself that they've only voiced their feelings following his behaviour. They want you to have someone they can feel relaxed about, not someone you don't really know where you are with.

God he sounds hopeless and you sound like you have the rose coloured glasses gaffer taped on.

He did propose and you did accept, that means you’re engaged. All this ‘pre-proposal’ nonsense is ridiculous, that’s not a thing and you (and your parents) know it. Also, you are pussy footing about him and defending him all over the place. It’s ok to want a ring, it’s ok to want to be able to say your engaged, it’s ok to want your families approval - these things all clearly matter to you, but you only seem focussed on what matters to him!

You think you’re in control because you manage the money and are more sorted, while he is some sort of whimsical drifter, but in reality he is calling all the shots here.

He proposed, then backtracked for some reason. He will get you a ring, oh but it’s one you already own, but only when he decides. Meanwhile you can buy him a house and fund his ‘art’ and prepare to do all the donkey work of managing a home and family. And why? Because he’s nice? He’s not though is he?

What the hell are you thinking??!!

So he gives up work to be an artist/ Sahp. Will he take on all the practical elements of organising the home and children? I’d say not a chance. You will end up working flat out having had to leave your babies at 3 months as you can’t afford any more mat leave. Taking on all the mental load and having him do a half assed job of the practical child care and home management. At some point you will start to see the artistic side as pure flakiness and realise you have a cocklodger. And then you’ll realise that if you want to get rid of him you will owe him half the assets, he will get primary care of your children and you will have to pay him maintenance. I’d say definitely don’t marry him. And ideally don’t have kids with him.

sorry if i have annoyed and frustrated you all. I appreciate the advise and the perspective and I will think it all over. Sorry if i don't seem like i am listening, i think it is hard because I've given a snapshot of a situation in which he has not covered himself in glory and obviously he is an entire person.

I think I am pretty much decided that I am going to tell him to forget about the engagement and the ring and the wedding for now, because for whatever reason it is causing problems.

I appreciate that my family are looking out for me, and at the risk of sounding like a petulant teen i think they probably don't really know us as a couple anymore. We don't live in the same place as my parents and we often don't spend time with them as a couple. They know 18 year old him who was definitely a bit selfish and inconsiderate, he has matured in the last ten years though and I just wish they would accept that I am sensible enough to have made a decision on whether to be with him or not, and I wish he would surrender a little of his hardheadedness and demonstrate something that would make them think he is a good choice.

I don't think you get that a SAHM typically doesn't do a 2nd job from home.
Cos they can't!

It's a full time job. Artists need TIME and lots of it. SAHP do not have time, not one bit, until all children are in school, which can be years. And then they may have quite a small amount of time as they try to cram in all their non-child-friendly errands into a few hours. They do (or are expected to do) the majority of household tasks, plus any doctors/dentists appointments and clothes shopping for the child.

SAHM have to be present every single weekday. That is generally non-negotiable.

When is he going to get to do his Art? That's a serious question - how can he do both?

On the engagement: if it isn't a "yes" then it is a "no". Waiting is a "no". Dithering over a ring is a "no". A "pre-engagement" is a "no" : redefining the well established boundaries of commitment - nice try but nope! Wishy washy prevaricating spineless ... No (and be glad for it).

Porpoisefully Obtuse has written an excellent post. You have been warned. Buying the house with him was a big mistake. He is using you.

Elspeth presumably if he has time for his art only in the evenings or on weekends this is when it will happen, equally if he has a commission that needs fulfilling we can presumably work around that with alternate arrangements for childcare. Plans are good, but obviously life is subject to change and so too will the plans be.

Do people genuinely have more solid ideas when deciding whether to marry or not? I feel like I am a planner, but the level of thought that people dedicate to this is actually making me feel underprepared.

My interest in the house is very well protected, if it all goes wrong it all goes wrong, but it is unlikely that he will walk away with more than he has put in, whether through financial contribution, or through contribution to our family life. Surely this is the risk that all couples take when they decide to buy together or get married?

The thing is, you want him to ‘demonstrate’ something that would make your family think he’s a good choice. This isn’t generally how it works. Generally your family would meet him, get to know him, assess his personality and character and see how the two of you are together. This all happens naturally and they then conclude he’s a good or bad choice for you. All that has already happened. Him buying you a ring as some sort of demonstration isn’t going to make any difference.

As an aside, if I was your parent and already wary about him, him coming and asking for the grandmothers ring to be your engagement ring, despite you already owning the ring, would make me view him in even worse a light than I did in the first place!

The thing is when they got to know him we were still really young, he had no direction in life and i was sort of half attempting to do something with my life, so we were much different people, my argument is sort of that the assessment the carried out is out of date, and that if he showed he was capable of following through, for example by proposing and then actually doing the ring thing and setting a date it would possibly encourage them to reassess, but i suppose in the grand scheme of things it will have to be enough for me to think he has changed, and I will just endure their opinions, which whilst well intention-ed, are a bit hurtful.

I do agree my grans ring thing may be a massive step in the wrong direction though

Of course people have solid ideas when deciding to marry! Or they don’t. But remember that half of marriages end in divorce and I would take a gamble that most of those divorcing are the ones where people might not have been on the same page at the outset.

Personally, I’ve been married twice. Once when he was pressured into it due to the longevity of our relationship more than anything else. We had historically had a couple of ‘breaks’ but ended up together anyway. I was the planner and doer in the relationship and he was a man-child, but ultimately we weren’t really on the same page about anything! The marriage lasted 18 months and cost me my life savings to get out of (lost via the property, surprise surprise).

I went into my second marriage making my hopes, plans and expectations crystal clear. And so did he. Luckily we are on the same page about pretty much everything and life is so much easier. No second-guessing, analysing and trying to ‘prove’ things to each other or anyone else. Because those things don’t really feature in happy relationships.

I know this is cynical, but don't use your Gran's ring. If your engagement and/or marriage don't work out then you will have tainted something special. Get something new (to you), it doesn't need to be expensive.

I don't think it's you who is underprepared OP...

If nothing else I am convinced that i need to have an honest conversation with him. So at least you have all achieved that!! I think I have always been the dependable peace keeper, but you are right that I shouldn't go into a marriage with the word compromise on my lips if all the compromises will be mine.

I also don't think he should use my grans ring if we make it as far as an official engagement.

My ex and I started like this.
He wanted to marry, he pre proposed in a v similar way and then balked at a ring.
In the end, I bought it for him.
I was always the career go getter, he was the artist type
We got married
We bought a house
We had DC
There was a plan that he would be SAHD and pursue his art. Identical to what you describe.

Anyway, in the end he withdrew his commitment to SAHD. Just too hard, he wouldn't be good at it, anyway bees can afford childcare. So... DC in full time childcare because he needed time to pursue art properly.

I cried sending DC to childcare as I had wanted to stay home with them for a few years at least, but had comforted myself that my DH would be with them... nope.

He made a small wage from his art, I supported us mostly. It was nice that he was at home for some conveniences, never missed a parcel delivery etc, but he became a massive cocklodger who would sulk about doing chores because he was "so busy" at home.

Five years after kids, he decides I bullied him into getting married and have been bulldozing him ever since, even said DC were purely my idea and he was backed into a corner over it. All he ever wanted was to be a bohemian artist, why did I do this to him? Devastating.

In the end I've had to give him the house as he can't afford adequate accoms to have the kids (non UK). I walked away from my deposit. I pay out 15% of my gross wage to him every month, as we share custody.

And I still pay for daycare... and clothes... and all extramurals... because I earn more... because he is just a struggling artist and we have DC and they're not to suffer for that.

He is a good father. He was just such a dreadful, dreadful partner/friend in the end. Nothing was his fault, everything happened "to" him, everyone was out to get him. He also developed extensive delusions that I was having affairs... because I was leaving the house every day, dressed and made up... you know... for the corporate job that put food in all our mouths

OP, it sounds like you won't be told, but I do so wish you would be: you are sleepwalking into a dangerous situation.