Engagement Ring

[KKOKK]

Been with my bf for just over 3 years, but knew him as friends for about 5 years before that when we dated on and off.

He asked me if I wanted to get married in the summer, and I said yes, and considered we had become engaged...he then termed it a pre-engagement, which I found a bit disappointing. Obviously I worried he didn’t actually want to get married etc...

We moved in together 4 months ago, just after the non proposal. Both sets of parents are a bit miffed that we have decided to live together without the “commitment” of a ring. Anytime we are with my family especially they make jokes about rings and weddings. My BF announced we would get married next year. Still no ring.

We have just put down our deposit on a house and the jokes about a ring have increased.

He got a bit angry about it all this week after a family dinner and said he had a plan to go and speak with my dad and ask my mum for my grans ring to propose with but now he doesn’t see why he should just to please my family and now he just wants to do his own thing.

I sort of imagined getting engaged (which I thought we’d already done) would be romantic, but now I feel like he will grudgenly go through the motions just to get people off our backs.

I would be really happy to wear my grans ring, but I now feel like that will just be another thing we get picked on about that he didn’t buy me something of my own.

Sorry that’s so long!! I just feel like I am stuck in the middle of my family who aren’t really massively happy with my choices, and a grumpy BF who feels irritable about having to propose

KKOK - you are right. 50:50 is just a starting point, and if you have children and he is the main carer for them HE WILL GET MORE THAN 50%!!

I am going through this now... please don't make the same mistakes I've made.

Maybe he’s just stressed by all the pressure? DH said he didn’t propose to me when I expected it because I put him under too much pressure, nor was it a very romantic proposal. But we are happily married with two children now!

50:50 is a starting point, very rarely is it the finishing point, but yea, I take the point

As a former struggling artist who married another struggling artist, grew up, bought a house ALL BY HERSELF for them both to live in, then divorced before she was 30... be prepared to learn that things don't work quite like you would think they do.

My ex wanted half a house he never put a penny into in deposit OR mortgage payments and never had his name on. We had no children. If he hadn't pissed off to the other side of the world to try to prove to me I couldn't divorce him he was well on his way to getting it; or at least bleeding me dry in legal fees labouring the point.

My guess is he got irritated with your dp's involvement.
So cut them out of the proposal plans and don't talk to them about it.
Forget about your gran's ring. Get a cheap ring from anywhere - you could get a ring for a fiver if money is that bad and then trade it up when he's got more money.

PS very happy now, two children and wedding date in 2019 with a man who is every bit my equal, so definitely not negative about relationships generally.

I would be very afraid that if you were to marry and have children with him, then split, he would end up with the kids, the house, and a chunk of your wages each month in maintenance. You might get the kids 50% of the time, but in most cases, the non-primary carer has every other weekend and a teatime or maybe an overnight in the week. His needs for accommodation and income are thus higher than yours, and just like when you were married, you will pay for it.

You say your parents are still viewing him as a confused immature 20 year old and he is refusing to show them that he has grown up. Has he grown up though? He still sounds like a petulant Man child.

He claims “he had plans” and your families nagging has put him off executing them. He’s essentially put you in a situation where you cannot win. He could have bought a small token ring with grace and asked your dad and done whatever it took to make you happy, but instead he wants to now make a ring you already have your engagement ring? How petty.

And play this out in the future.. you have a job that provides for your family unit. He is “crap at money” and “an artist at heart” but isn’t actually doing anything about his art either (except for leaving you for an un-agreed indeterminate period of time midway through your relationship a few years ago). When you have kids I will bet you you will still be doing all the housework and childcare and earning for the family because he is too precious to do a job for a job’s sake, and it’ll be disrespectful to expect him to keep House or look after his kids.

Oh OP I wish you’d take the blinkers off and run away from this man. Your family has your best interests at heart and can probably clearly see the issues in your relationship. Stop feeling guilty about making him look bad - if he was a better boyfriend you wouldn’t have to try so hard.

Just ask yourself what are 5 genuine things you want in a relationship, and whether he willingly and eagerly fulfils those needs! It doesn’t sound like he is much of a prize!

Also reading your latest update it’s not any one of these things. Some men fluff up proposals, some partners of either sex are bad with money, some partners are grumpy, some partners are a bit entitled.

Yours is all of the above to a degree sufficient to worry your parents and to worry many of the people responding here. Many of us are in happy relationships and don’t think everything is doomed to failure. We just think having seen a bit of the world and a bit of how things turn out that you’re hiding your head in the sand and hoping it all works out - when there is no evidence that it will. And all evidence is pointing to him being quite a poor choice of mate.

OP it does sound like you've put your fingers in your ears so you can't hear what we're all saying.

Two issues - firstly, he DID propose (there is no such thing as a pre-proposal, not one person on this thread has ever heard of it!) and you accepted. Nothing has been done about progressing the wedding plans, irregardless of rings (he knows you don't particularly care about a ring anyway) there is no way you are getting married next year because nothing has been planned or even discussed! This screams that he does not want to get married and his handling of this messy situation is appalling. Calling it a pre-proposal and making you second-guess it is just cowardly and mean. He knows full well he proposed, as do you. But since that made it all real he's now trying to backtrack. So I don't see how 'putting that aside' is even an option. It's a huge red flag.

Second issue is not so much that he's an artist, it's the way you've described his personality and behaviour - things that you won't ever really be able to change. He takes no responsibility for finances in your relationship, he doesn't like to plan, you deal with all the 'adult' thinking. It's THIS that's the problem for me and other posters. Because if he's like this at this point in your relationship then he's only going to get worse as the relationship matures (and he doesn't)

You're at such a pivotal point in your life now, buying a property, making strides in your career, this is the time to be pragmatic and also to be very honest with yourself about what you really want and what's best for you and your future.

This is such a weird thread. MN always confuses me with how quickly it can sometimes flip into the 1950s. "He wants sex without commitment" because you're not married? Really?

He is an artist but he also does do the boring 9-5 job, he applied for a permanent position there to help our mortgages chances, even though I know he would previously have felt like a permanent job was tantamount to saying he was no longer pursing his dreams.

When it came down to picking our house he swayed me towards the one closer to better schools and closer to my work so he would be the one making a commute rather than me.

I don’t currently do all the household tasks, I work late hours at times so he picks up the slack there.

I do the finances because it makes sense for me to do that. It wouldn’t occur to him to switch banks or fix savings etc, so I think It makes sense for me to do that, I don’t think that makes him feckless at all.

If you take earning potential out of the equation I think our relationship is quite equal, or at least not drastically unequal.

I have said to him that I think we should hold off on an “official” engagement until we are both sure it’s what we want. I can also transfer the mortgage to my sole name if necessary, so it’s not like there aren’t options.

I’m not ignoring the comments, I’m just trying to work through what is relevant based on what I know about my entire relationship and what is less relevant.

I do despair reading some people’s comments on this. All the if he’s the sahp he’d get more than 50% and he’d get the kids more time if they split. That’s exactly what happens if it’s a sahm only then everyone’s advice if for her to see a shit hot lawyer and take him for as much as she can, seen as she’s done the important job of raising the kids so he could earn the money.
What exactly are those posters teaching their kids, boys have to grow up to earn the money and girls be prepared to give up your careers to be a mummy.

emboo exactly!!!

I definitely don’t think all relationships are doomed to fail, I am very happily married myself. I do think that relations like yours, where there is a bit of an imbalance on how you deal with things and where communication is poor, are likely to struggle when you throw real financial commitments, children and anything like a crisis into the mix.

You’re not going to listen though, and that’s fine.

But he didn’t fluff the proposal. He proposed and you said yes. So far, so standard. It’s all the weird stuff afterwards that is raising the red flags. There have been a couple of posts here recently, one where the guy proposed and backtracked like your situation and another where he was forever promising a ring but it never materialised. Both of these relationships ended because the man was not ever going to commit. You say that buying the house demonstrates his commitment, but that’s easy for him when the major financial outlay is yours. You are providing him the security to ‘pursue his dream’ and most people on here (myself included) would not be happy to do that.

It's not that I am not listening, its that I don't agree with everything that is being said. I disagree in particular about the characterisation of sahp. I have had legal advice regarding the house, its not that I am not aware of divorce statistics or the potential for it to go wrong, but surely that is the same risk everyone takes when they decide to commit to someone.

He is adamant that he wants to get married next year and wants to go ring shopping this weekend, but having listened to the advice I just said i think it's better if we wait and see how things are going in the new year. I think I have been guilty of not communicating my feelings better apart from anything else.

Um... The shit hot lawyer stuff is normally said to a poster whose DH has cheated!

PNGirl it's all fine, I retain a shit hot lawyer for all occasions at any rate.

On balance if he stayed at home with the children whilst I worked he would be the one at a disadvantage if he tried to re-enter the work place, so it may well be that we do something different with childcare if the time comes. He may also end up as a famous artist and then I can be a kept woman

thanks for everyone who is taking the time to offer advice, I know I am frustrating!

Or if they’re getting told to Ltb because he doesn’t do anything with the kids when he’s not working or help at all with the house or spend his weekends cycling or is just a bit of dick! My point is, that a woman in the ops boyfriends position would be given totally different advice and that kind of attitude isn’t doing women any favours in terms of equality.

Well OP, I’m inclined to agree with the earlier poster who said they guy is a genius.

You started the thread wanting a proper engagement and a ring. Two things that, for whatever reason, your DP did not want. Now you are not getting either of those things and you think it was your idea!

mister My point is that I wasn't bothered about engagement and a ring until he brought it up. When he asked I was delighted and surprised and excited, its what followed that caused me concern, but I think poor communication is as much to blame as anything.

I remain happy to be engaged or not engaged, ring or no ring, so long as I know what the status is.

I guess the thread has just made me consider whether it is what I actually want right now, given that I have not been the driving force.

The ring/engagement is a massive red herring and not the problem here. Neither is his relationship with your family.

Buying a house together (which isn’t really what your doing as you’re funding most of it) is not a sign of commitment.

He is:
Borrowing money off his parents towards the deposit (would be interesting to see exactly how much this is compared to what you’re putting in).

Dangling getting married to keep you involved in the house buying process. He doesn’t mean it.

Has ‘dreams’ to be an artist. Well. Bugger me, we all have dreams but then we have to grow up and be an adult and take care of our own finances and save and pay bills and clean the house when the baby has kept you up all night and thrown up on you for the third time and shat on the sofa. You’ve only lived together for4 months, of course you don’t argue about the bins! You’re both on your best behaviour!

House and money aside because you’ve laboured the point you’ve apparently got this sewn up so he can’t fleece you down the line.... can you DEPEND on him.

Say you get made redundant, he hates his 9-5 and quits to follow his passion, can you honestly imagine being able to depend on him in a time of crisis. What if you suffer from HG during pregnancy and can’t work whilst he’s off chasing a paintbrush?

Obviously we can only go into this with the detail you’ve given us but please don’t disregard the wealth of experience on his thread.

Don’t get married, don’t get engaged. Tell your family it’s not happening for the foreseeable. See how it is in a year after you’ve REALLY lived with him.

I would put a lot of money on him coming to you a month after you’ve moved into the new house and you’re paying all the bills and he has a free roof over his head and saying he wants to give up his job and Perdue his dreams and wouldn’t you be stifling him if you said no?

Just be wary. He’s found a meal ticket and your parents know it.

it has only ever been him
The Sunk Cost Fallacy. The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences. The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

Buying a house is a financial commitment, not an emotional commitment.

Ok so you weren’t fussed on an engagement and ring. But neither was he. So how have you ended up here? Do you think he proposed in the summer due to pressure from family? He thought that would take the heat off, but actually it only increased the pressure because he didn’t follow through?

When my first marriage failed it was for various reasons, but the overarching theme was that we just didn’t communicate. I remember being really nervous to bring up the possibility of us trying for a baby, even though we were married. Looking back it was ridiculous.

Your relationship sounds like it could head the same way if you don’t start properly talking. Not ‘I was going to get you a ring this weekend’, ‘nah, let’s wait’. Properly looking at how you have got here.

I’m sure he’s not a bad guy and you obviously love him, but if I was your mum I would be concerned too. He ‘left’ you to pursue his art... why? Couldn’t he be in a relationship and do that? What’s changed now? You think it’s some big sacrifice that he’s got a boring 9-5 job when he’d rather do something else, but that’s how it is for most people! Ditto him doing the household chores when you work late, it’s not a favour to you, that’s normal. You’re funding the house and your lifestyle and it’s all about him, the only person who is putting anything practical or emotional into this relationship is you.

The advice I'd give op's boyfriend would be marry her quick. For me it's usually the interests of whoever's posting I'm focusing on, not their sex.

if he stayed at home with the children whilst I worked he would be the one at a disadvantage if he tried to re-enter the work place

Yet another reason to claim a bigger slice of the assets if you split, I'm afraid

You keep saying you're absolutely confident that he wouldn't be able to fleece you and that you've had great legal advice, but surely the lawyer must have outlined this to you - or did you just avoid that bit because it dealt with something you'd rather not hear?

I'm truly sorry, but overall I have to agree with the PP who said "he’s found a meal ticket and your parents know it"