My friend shocked me the way she rejected this guy

[Lifeisntbad]

Have Ncd and changed some details but this is basically it. A small group of us are on a weekend away. After a few perfectly respectful approaches from men all of whom took the hint and departed when the conversation dried up, my friend who has admittedly had a somewhat difficult time from men in the past but nothing out of the ordinary really genuinely shocked me. We had had a few drinks but weren't drunk.

I'm not sure he was even trying his luck, seemed to be in the hotel for work reasons and just started chatting. After a while my frIend turned to him and said "you're not exactly attractive and you have zero chance with any of us so save yourself the embarrassment and just leave us alone." My other friend and I were stunned and the guy just looked utterly crushed and went away without saying another word. The thing is he was actually fairly attractive and quite a good conversationalist.
Even if he wasn't that's hardly justification. I don't know what to say if we run into him today. I'm really shocked at what my friend said and us 2 others went silently to bed after. I'll speak to her about it today but I've never seen this side to her before. I really felt so sorry for him he looked so upset and shocked.

"Any educator will tell you that if you want real change, as well as punishing unwanted behaviour, you need to model the desired behaviour"

Bollocks. Women have been 'smiling politely' to men who are too thick or too arrogant (or both) to take any damned notice for millenia.

For how many more millennia do you expect women to be polite and change their own behaviour to avoid upsetting rude, inconsiderate and frankly sometimes dangerous men?

You have no clue bluntly, you know you have no clue or at least zero ability to put yourself in the situation. How about you go spend your efforts educating men to behave themselves rather than telling women they must restrict themselves to accommodate rude and intrusive men.
part of which is not using excessive or unjust punishments.

Women get harassed by men and worse, have men dominating their conversation, and assuming that any woman alone or group of women would love a man to approach them and dominate their conversation. And through the cat calls, sexual assaults, sexist jokes, we are supposed to smile and be unfailingly polite.

Well fuck that.

I love it when a man comes along to tell us that we are wrong about own lives.

It's like me ( a white woman ) going onto an online group for black people and telling them they are imagining rasicm and even if they experience this imaginary thing , it's because they are projecting an image on a subliminal level.

But I wouldn't do that because I'm not a total arsehole who get kicks from invading the spaces of minority groups and sounding off about my own agenda. And I'm not stupid enough to think that it will persuade them that I'm right and they are wrong.

It will just confirm their views and experiences. And they will rightly tell me to Fuck Off.

Much like the woman in the OP. Hmm.

I think, SOAG, your time might be better spent talking to men about their behaviour rather than women about their reaction to it.

You seem to think you have all the answers but it's clear to me you don't even understand the problem.

I have learned so much from MN from threads like these. My mindset has almost completely changed. I've been abused in different ways by men since teenage years but was socialised, by my mother and by society to be grateful for and privileged by being approached by men. My mum defines her self worth on men being interested in her on nights out and will trip over herself to return the attention.
I will be so happy for my daughter, when she's old enough, to unapologetically say 'fuck off' to any man trying to insert himself into her group of friends on a night out.

Well. It was rude of your friend but on the other hand this guy should able to take care of himself. I don't subscribe to the "poor lamb" school of thought. If he tries it, he has to be prepared that his advances might sometimes be welcome, sometimes not. Yes your friend could have put it far nicer but themes the chances you take when chatting up strangers in a bar.

Yes your friend could have put it far nicer but thems the chances you take when chatting up strangers in a bar.

Yup.

@RebelRogue Tue SensitiveOldAgeGuy I’m not English, how does that compute with your brilliant theory?
I don't understand that. Please rephrase.

@ReanimatedSGB Tue 17-Oct-17 08:27:38I think we've got us another sea lion. Pass the fish bucket, someone.
I love that. Proud to be a Sea Lion.

@Schmoopy SOAG I can tell the difference between a local guiding a tourist in a friendly manner and a man attempting to infiltrate a group of women on a night out.I've experienced both. HTH.
Yes so can I. I have experienced sexual harassment by women. I have experienced women demanding, not at all nicely, to be included in men's activities. Cheers.

SOAG, can you see you’re doing the equivalent here of the guy in the OP?

If we told you nicely that you weren’t wanted here, would you leave graciously?

@C8H10N4O2
For how many more millennia do you expect women to be polite and change their own behaviour to avoid upsetting rude, inconsiderate and frankly sometimes dangerous men?
I don't expect that. Just suggesting that you do less collateral damage

You have no clue bluntly, you know you have no clue or at least zero ability to put yourself in the situation.
So I learnt nothing from Brownmiller and the rest? They must have been wasting their time.
I believe I have some clue and ability. You cannot possibly know what I know.
How about you go spend your efforts educating men to behave themselves rather than telling women they must restrict themselves to accommodate rude and intrusive men.
How do I do that when I have no knowledge or understanding of the problem?

Poor, poor fragile men that learn that they are not always welcomed and cherished by all women they happen to meet.
And I still maintain "a great conversationalist" means someone who dominates the conversation and does not bloody listen.

@SillyLittleBiscuit Tue 17-Oct-17 09:33:39
I think, SOAG, your time might be better spent talking to men about their behaviour rather than women about their reaction to it.
I do that whenever the subject comes up on some sport and lifestyle forums I belong to. I must say that on those, the people who violently disagree with me and hold me in contempt, do not do so in the abusive way peeps do here.
You seem to think you have all the answers but it's clear to me you don't even understand the problem.
See answer to @C8H10N4O2 above.

@TheStoic Tue 17-Oct-17 12:01:02
SOAG, can you see you’re doing the equivalent here of the guy in the OP?
Yes, I can. (example of me listening here) Except I am not going to be appear crushed.
If we told you nicely that you weren’t wanted here, would you leave graciously?
Hypothetically, Yes. Who is we? If it was some of the posters who have been gracious, probably.
If it was the people who use angry, abusive, intolerant, offensive language indicating a misandric personality, I will use their phraseology.

Fuck That.

Sorry,not sorry.

'Proud' to be a sea lion? What a remarkably limited and pathetic life you must lead, if you call getting an entire internet thread to think you're an annoying, willfully ignorant wanker some kind of achievement.

I would have left the friend alone and immediately joined the man and his friends. I don't associate with women like that .

I bet you associate with men like that. A surprising number of men resort to personal insults if they don't get the attention they want from women and it's not always the ones you'd expect it from.

@ReanimatedSGB Tue 17-Oct-17 12:54:51
'Proud' to be a sea lion? What a remarkably limited and pathetic life you must lead, if you call getting an entire internet thread to think you're an annoying, willfully ignorant wanker some kind of achievement.
Yay! You have noticed me.
Entire thread? I fondly hope there are some who think some of my ideas have some merit. Briefly those who said the OPs friend behaved inappropriately.

SOAG my comments re rape culture and refusing to engage were for Nancy (post now deleted). But if you feel they apply to you perhaps you should consider why.

On THIS issue yes as a man you cannot really understand the CONSTANT pestering women endure, in my own case since the age of 10. Go look at the 'me too' thread on here and across every other platform at the moment.

And YES I support ANY woman who says 'enough' because we've TRIED polite, well mannered responses and guess what - got us fucking nowhere!

"Bollocks. Women have been 'smiling politely' to men who are too thick or too arrogant (or both) to take any damned notice for millenia." More eloquently put here.

Within my own VERY LARGE circle are friends I've known over 30 years and ones I've met in the last year or 2, it includes men who wouldn't DREAM of behaving in such crass selfish ways and who pull up other men who do. As a result I have a mostly happy and varied social life, unless and entitled arse of a man spoils it.

You keep ref brownmiller - so you've read ONE author prob only ONE book, cannot possibly know what it's like to be a woman in a patriarchal society as you're a MAN yet you are an EXPERT telling US. WOMEN who experience this shit DAILY where we're going wrong? Fuck off!

@Graphista Tue 17-Oct-17 13:41:55

SOAG my comments re rape culture and refusing to engage were for Nancy (post now deleted). But if you feel they apply to you perhaps you should consider why.
I regret that now I have no record of what Nancy posted, so I can't fathom why she was deleted.

On THIS issue yes as a man you cannot really understand the CONSTANT pestering women endure, in my own case since the age of 10. Go look at the 'me too' thread on here and across every other platform at the moment.

If I cannot possibly understand, what is the point of me reading those sources?

And YES I support ANY woman who says 'enough' because we've TRIED polite, well mannered responses and guess what - got us fucking nowhere!"Bollocks. Women have been 'smiling politely' to men who are too thick or too arrogant (or both) to take any damned notice for millenia." More eloquently put here.

I take that on board.

Within my own VERY LARGE circle are friends I've known over 30 years and ones I've met in the last year or 2, it includes men who wouldn't DREAM of behaving in such crass selfish ways and who pull up other men who do. As a result I have a mostly happy and varied social life, unless and entitled arse of a man spoils it.

Do any of those men "understand" women's problems? Or do they just do it because you want them to, nothing else?
Do you feel patronised because they don't let you fight your own battles?
Polite responses end here.

You keep ref brownmiller - so you've read ONE author prob only ONE book, cannot possibly know what it's like to be a woman in a patriarchal society as you're a MAN yet you are an EXPERT telling US. WOMEN who experience this shit DAILY where we're going wrong? Fuck off!
I have read plenty more If you want me to list them all then you are a SeaLion. I must have wasted my time if it is impossible for me to gain any understanding from that.
Fuck Off yourself.

Really disgusted by the sexism towards soag on here. Firstly it’s a public forum- you don’t need to have a vagina to post on here.
Secondly men are constantly harassed, approached & groaned by women so yes he can understand it. Just because you don’t hear about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
Lastly as someone who was sexually harassed, stalked, threatened, had death threats posted through my door from the aged of 11-18 by grown fucking men, it’s a fucking joke that some pps are trying to compare a guy chatting up some women in a bar to sexual harassment. Get a fucking grip. Approaching someone doesn’t imply a sense of entitlement to their time. Noones forcing you to speak to them. Just say no thanks. It’s that simple, & if they’re not getting your ‘hints’, that’s not their fault either. Just spell it out for them. SMH.

groaped*

Actually the spelling is groped

Just spell it out for them.

This is where we came in. The OP's friend was being castigated for doing that very thing. 11 pages and we're round in yet another circle.