"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I will add to this about my toxic family but at the moment I want to save it.

Girlandboy my first thought was the same as Attila

My mother would often use medical issues to get in touch, to get a reaction, sympathy, drama!
Surely if it's genetic then her consultant has a duty to contact you.

Sunflower I'd driven over here before in a British car but what I found really much harder was driving a left hand drive. For the first few weeks every time I tried to change gear I'd find myself opening the window! I used to practice in car parks sometimes. It was really stressful now that I think about it actually, I'd forgotten because there were about 10 things that were really stressful all at once. The stress of it really brought things to a head with my mother, because I had no time to manage her and as you guys probably recognise, that's the time when you expect a parent to support you but our ones start tantrumming because they're not being pandered to

girlandboy if you are concerned you could phone up the clinical genetics unit of your local hospital and ask them what the process would be in a case like this. I have a chromosomal abnormality and when it was discovered I was referred to a genetic counselor who took a family history with the aim of contacting anyone who might also be affected. I don't know exactly how they do contact family in that case because I don't have any brothers or sisters so it didn't apply but I imagine they just write a letter to their GP. It does sound like horseshit to me as well though.

Hi toomuch, that's so funny that you had driven in Germany before in a right hand drive car, because I am exactly the same! For years I drove British cars in Germany, so I'm used to sitting on the right and changing gears with my left hand...I have just never driven on the left side of the road. Sometimes I get annoyed with myself that I can't pluck up the courage to do it and I feel so pathetic! We actually lived in the US for a couple of years and I drove over there too (and it was rather busy where we were).

I just seem to have lost all my confidence.

I have however received a letter this morning with an appointment for therapy; it's at the end of the month.

Feeling quite nervous about it.

Well this morning Ive received the first contact from my father for two years.

A letter in the post with photographs of me and my children saying that he'd found them in the shed where they'd been discarded by my mother 'when she no longer had a daughter' and now he was sending them to me because 'he no longer has a daughter'. He wishes me the misery Ive given him due to me spreading lies about him. He also said 'it's okay for you to carry on behind your husbands back and keep a dirty little secret'. This is about the fact that I left my first husband 20 years ago for my now DH. What he conveniently forgets is I was thrown into living with my first husband when they threw me out at 17, I stupidly married him and split 5 years later after I met my now DH. I'm not proud of leaving one man for another but Ive never kept it a secret. Why he feels the need to drag it up now, 20 years and two children later I don't know.

It all boils down to the fact he doesn't like it because Ive told people what he's done. He's outraged at the fact Ive not kept it all quiet like I had to when I was a child. Tough!

Blamedagain - I have just read your first post (still catching up) and wow; how horrible to be kicked out of your home by your mother at such a young age and to see your father not doing anything about it.

Whenever I hear stories like yours it makes me wonder if I even have the right to complain about my parents.

I'm sorry, I don't have any words of wisdom and I haven't read all your posts yet, but I don't think you owe your father anything. How dare he make you feel bad about anything that happened in your life!

Blamedagain

Your father (and he is truly not worthy of the term) is a thoroughly nasty piece of work.

Shred his letter if you have not already done so; do not give this any more power.

It went straight in the bin. I thought it was a particularly low blow to bring my mother into this. To go NC with her wasn't an easy decision at the time and only done as I was completely at the end of my tether with her alcoholism. She had numerous hospitalisations and I was always putting my children last to run to her needs. After her last episode of being rushed into hospital I made the 2 hour round trip to visit her on my daughters birthday and when I got there all I got was vitriol and hate. I decided there and then I wasn't going to put up with it any longer, after all, she had never put me first, even when I was a child.

Obviously this still galls my father despite him saying he understood at the time.

Any stick to beat me with will do I suppose.

Thanks Sunflower. We all seem to be thinking 'it wasn't that bad' about our childhoods and when we read others experiences it seems there's always someone worse off than us. I tend to swing between feeling sorry for my parents and then feeling angry at them.

I think 'no wonder there was stress in the house, we were always short of money due to my father losing his job' then I think 'but my mother could never hold a job down very long either and there was always money for drink and cigarettes'. I get conflicting thoughts for so many scenarios that they put us through.

I have so many examples like that. I feel sorry for them for something then I remember how if it were me with my children now I'd bend over backwards to protect them from any hurt. My parents never did that.

Perhaps the feeling that we didn't have it so bad is a form of self preservation.

Sorry for going slightly off topic, but just wondered if anyone here has gone n/c with their parents and then their parents have pursued them for access to grandchildren through the courts?

I think this might be what my parents are about to attempt and was wondering if anybody has an experience?

No but the fear of that is quite a powerful force isn't it?

Been relatively amused by the fact that my mother has effectively been ostracised by all our family for the way she is treating me without me saying a word. God I hope she doesn't try to contact me.

fc301, yes I'm genuinely scared that they will try this.

I've had an email saying they are willing to try mediation and I know that is the stage before courts.

The fact that I've told them I don't want any contact with them for the timebeing so that I can concentrate on recovering from the CPTSD I got as a result of growing up with them and their mad son seems to have gone right over their heads.

I'm worried they will take court action, and while their chances are slim it's time, pressure and money on DH and I when I'm trying to concentrate on my MH.

Mrs ASoprano

No and no again to mediation either; I have read about your parents who are horrific frankly and mediation is not to be considered here under any circumstances. They will just try and use the mediator to get their own way again and it will be a waste of time, money and effort. Do not put yourself through mediation with your parents. These people have poor boundaries themselves and will continue to ride roughshod over any boundaries you care to set them.

Grandparents in the UK have no automatic rights of access to see their grandchildren and IIRC the onus is on them to prove that a relationship between the grandparents and their grandchild would be beneficial to said child.

Thank you Attila, I understand if we decline mediation it can go against me in court?

MrsASoprano Maybe you can put a thread about the rights/possible acceptable grounds to refuse mediation

Mrs S

I do not know if this is indeed the case and I would seek legal advice from a Solicitor. I would hope a refusal (and you have extremely good grounds to refuse) would not count against you.

Mediation generally speaking is not a good idea if there is abuse within the relationship. I still think that in your parents case they want to use mediation as simply another means of verbally beating you up.

Why not ring a mediator for a quick chat?

Just need a quick vent.

Just spoke to my M on the phone which on the whole was light and contention-free so hurray for that.

However, at one point she decided to make a judgement about a male friend who has just split from his girlfriend with whom he had been living for the last few months. The ex-girlfriend had a son of six or so.

'I feel so sorry for her little boy who has just got to know X and now he's moved out.'

What, that's a problem and yet it was OK for her own two daughters to have to hide their father's prescription drug addiction, witness his violence and support her when they were only children? Wtf.

Spare I'm convinced that they parrot things they've heard from other people that they think sound good/appropriate/nice.

I once said something when my M was telling me about her sisters latest gripe with her daughter and two weeks later my M was expressing the exact same thing back at me as if it were her own opinion. It's like one huge mind game.

Spare I wanted to also say something about what you'd said about your OH thinking you'd 'changed'. It's taken some time for me to think about it and I think my OH could possibly be anxious that I have changed. He's not a talker of feelings but to put it bluntly from the snippets he has said I think he's been a bit worried he's next for the axe.

I've been spending so much time inside my own head these past few months, obsessing about my parents, that I must have appeared pretty distant.

Thanks thisfamily, I've started threads on that before with not much response. Just googled to find if there are any threads on other forums.

WOW gransnet is an eye-opener, there's an old thread from someone talking about her wicked, spiteful daughter who got a police harassment order on her

It's actually interesting to read the other side of this stuff...the "I'm just a poor, sweet little old granny and I've never done anything wrong' side. I'm sure that's the kind of thing my mother says.

this is interesting on the other side of the story..

Nora yes that's it I think with my DH too. I suppose if his and my positions were reversed I would probably start thinking that too. In an ideal world he'd read 'that Codepency Book' too, but being a bloke who thinks discussing feelings is a sign of weakness, that's never going to happen!

It doesn't help that he has a few codependency issues of his own - to a lesser extent than my family I think but still there. I think it's been discussed on here before that people like us to tend to end up together, so it figures. So as well as feeling threatened be me changing a bit, he's also threatened by the fact that some of his own internal values are being challenged by implication.

As I said before, we had a row about something else but I think all this stuff was quite a big part of it. We did talk it all through though and things seem better now. I suppose I have to be prepared for it to take some time for us both to adjust to a slightly new equilibrium.

We (you and I) have a similar time line so it is kind of reassuring that you have had a similar issue but at the same time I'm sorry you are having to address it too!

And yes, re my M and the phone call, she has a set of rules about what's right and wrong, I think, but they are based on things looking respectable to everyone else, not on true compassion. I have known this for years, long before I became more aware and started to post here on SH, but somehow this particular example has got me riled more than before, maybe because it's specifically to do with parenting.

Wow Mrs Soprano, that's pretty awful to read- it's all the stuff they say and they say they excuse themselves.

It makes me wonder if mine would ever admit to being abusive. I don't think they would. I spent most of my childhood hearing about how awful theirs was.

My sibling is now posting passive aggressive stuff on social media about "sticking together".

I can still hear them in my head saying "it wasn't that bad. Stop feeling sorry for yourself"

I hope I don't screw up my kids this way. I'm so scared of them growing up with low self esteem