"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you toomuch. I don't know why I am struggling so much at the minute when the really 'bad stuff' (the big fall out and my miscarriage) happened two years ago.

Maybe you are right and I am now going through a grieving process and mourning what could have been.

I feel so isolated but at the same time I don't want to go out or do anything.

P.S.: How do you find driving in Germany? I bet that took some getting used to? X

Lemon
I hope your day is peaceful and you are able to cope.
I can imagine you are on high alert

Quite right mozzchops you owe your DC. You do not owe your mother.

MadameDeZafon

re your comment:-

"DH has said he will take on extra work for me to see a private therapist/psychologist/whatever is needed for me to process...but it feels very self-indulgent and a little dramatic".

That's your own critical self that your parents instilled within you again. Hard as that is you need to ignore that critical voice that your parents implanted in your head. It is not self indulgent to invest in your own self, not at all. And you need therapy badly, your childhood was abusive through and through. Sadly no-one in wider society ever seemingly thought about the need to protect you from them.

Let your DH help you as well. By the way BACP are good and do not charge the earth; you may want to contact them.

Mozzchops

She is indeed evil to utter such threats to you. Do not further make suggestions as she is really not interested, she just wants to use you as an audience to her many and varied tales of woe is me.

Please do yourself a huge service and block your mother's means of communicating with you as of now. You do not need such toxicity in your life and you are probably one of the very last people who actually bothers with her. You do not owe this woman anything and she is taking time and energy away from you when this could be better employed on your children and yourself.

Thank you @SparklyMorning. I've now had a couple of texts in response to my letter.

They're pretty much the most rambling, self justifying, point-missing things I've ever read. No apology, obviously. Some extra bits thrown in about my dad not being perfect. Also, 'Yr dad would have wrote a letter'. Which I guess is a thinly veiled accusation of something - cowardice maybe? Who knows.

Feeling pretty calm at the moment. Haven't replied yet. I may not. Going to have a long hard think.

Thank you again to you all for being here. It's so helpful to talk to those who understand without having to explain.

Lemon

So your mother has sent you a couple of (probably free) text messages. Hmmm, so she cannot even be bothered to pick up the phone and talk to you directly. Given what you have written about her she not phoning you directly is a good thing.

Re your comment on these texts from her:-
"They're pretty much the most rambling, self justifying, point-missing things I've ever read. No apology, obviously. Some extra bits thrown in about my dad not being perfect. Also, 'Yr dad would have wrote a letter'. Which I guess is a thinly veiled accusation of something - cowardice maybe? Who knows"

I would not have expected anything other than ramblings from her; the no apology as well is par for the course and is a given from such a disordered of thinking person. Your dad would probably have written you a nasty letter attempting to bring you back into line at her behest. He also played out a role here in your family of origins dysfunction. He perhaps idolised her on some level as well as being afraid of her and wanting her approval too.

I would not reply to her messages under any circumstances. She must not be given a further "in" by you which replying to her message no matter how nicely or carefully worded would do.

@AttilaTheMeerkat sorry - to clarify, what my DM meant by 'your dad would have wrote a letter' is that he would have addressed a problem with her by writing a letter to HER. Who knows, maybe that's what he did?

Hence why I see it as a bit of an insult, as I think she's implying it's something cowardly he would have done. (Coward was one of her insults towards him, growing up).

Attila thank you. I have to convince myself that it's worth it for the sake of my kids- but I know it should be for my own sake too.

I still view my childhood as "not that bad" and maybe they didn't mean but I see that's similar to many on here and our parents never seem to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. I've had 30+ years of being the grown up and I'm empty.

They won't care though, not enough to ask how I am or to try to understand.

I find it so hard and so heart breaking to get my head round that. They show by their actions how selfish they are and how they'd must always be the victim....it's so unfair when I see others with their 'normal', supportive parents and healthy boundaries. Why didn't I deserve that? Wasn't I worth it?

Saw the GP- she thinks it's a breakdown and C-PTSD, my fluoxetine dose has been changed, given diazepam and referred to psychiatrist.

Will look into a therapist via BACP too, thank you.

Lemon

Will you reply do you think or take some more time? Especially if she's trying to call you cowardly when you've told her how you feel

@MadameDeZafon I've drafted a reply, basically saying 'you've totally missed the point'. But am holding off sending it for now.

Especially as she's now just texted to say 'don't call this weekend'. She'll write back to me. Which I now recognise as a total power play on her part, in an effort to take back control.

Hi Lemon

re your comment:-
@AttilaTheMeerkat sorry - to clarify, what my DM meant by 'your dad would have wrote a letter' is that he would have addressed a problem with her by writing a letter to HER. Who knows, maybe that's what he did?

Hence why I see it as a bit of an insult, as I think she's implying it's something cowardly he would have done. (Coward was one of her insults towards him, growing up)".

How did he react when she was saying all this to him and for that matter how did you feel?. It must have been both frightening and horrifying for you to hear your mother to use such a word against him.
Clearly theirs was never a healthy relationship; not even close so I wonder what they both got out of it. I can see what she got out of it (someone to rule over) but your dad?.

Do not write back saying that she has missed the point; it will be a totally pointless exercise and just allows her another "in" to bait you with.

You are right in stating that her latest missive is an attempt to further regain power and control. I would seriously consider not responding to any of this. Writing to her as you did, though understandable, was never going to get you very far. It simply gave her an "in".

@MadameDeZafon it was scary, yes. I don't remember a lot of my childhood, mostly for that reason. My dad was very quiet, placid. Always very loving to me, but I always saw him more like a brother, than an authority figure. I'd always try and stand up for him. Their relationship, and why it endured is a total mystery to me. He never, ever said anything negative about her to me, until after they split. When I was little, he used to pretend the horrible things she was saying to him were a joke. I can only imagine he stayed for the same reason other abuse victims stay (I don't know why that is).

@AttilaTheMeerkat I feel I have to reply. I know it's stupid. But I almost want there to be a 'paper' trail of evidence for myself. So I can see her being unreasonable, and myself replying, reasonably.

Thank you Attila and fc301

Unfortunately when I cut her off completely she becomes harder work and then increases my anxiety, it's much better if I have some control over it

Financially I can't help her, I have so much to pay for extra curricular stuff for the dcs.
She also admitted she's borrowed money off a long time friend who is unwell and has also overspent on a credit card that is now accruing interest
However she states she can't get another card as she can't read on her phone to apply

"@AttilaTheMeerkat I feel I have to reply. I know it's stupid. But I almost want there to be a 'paper' trail of evidence for myself. So I can see her being unreasonable, and myself replying, reasonably".

Think very long and hard before replying if you do decide to do this; I would urge you not to as no good will come of it but you have to do as you think is right.

I get the need to have a paper trail but you have a long and detailed history in your head of her being unreasonable (which is an understatement).

Am sorry that you felt you had to stand up for your dad; that was never your job as a child to do that. BTW do you know anything at all about his own family of origin; that may well give clues if you do. Am I surprised they split up subsequently; not a bit and you likely are not either. Women like your mother simply cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as disordered as they are or discarded when they are of no further use to them.

@mosschops it's not fair of her to expect you to finance her though- you have your children and yourself to take care of. Will you be able to stay low-contact within her trying to guilt trip you?

@lemon I totally understand what you mean about the paper trail. I've been contemplating sending a letter to my folks to explain why I'm not bending over backwards anymore. But I think it would do more harm than good- it might feel good to get it all out but not to stir up the hornet's nest, as it were.

Do you ever feel like you want to write to her to give her one last chance to redeem herself?

Sorry to hear about how she treated your dad, that must have been painful to witness.

"Unfortunately when I cut her off completely she becomes harder work and then increases my anxiety, it's much better if I have some control over it"

How does she manage to contact you when you cut her off completely? Or does she use other family members to do her bidding i.e. the flying monkeys by reaching out to you. Trying to set boundaries with a narcissist is damn nigh impossible mainly because they do not like it. They have poor boundaries themselves and they like to win and maintain power.

You can only control how you react to her. Any attention from you to her gives her narcissistic supply and you are her ready audience. You're probably one of the very few people who actually bothers with her at all and that is a mistake.

I read codependent people are often saddled with responsibility far too early. So it was with both my parents. My DF's dad died when my DF was 14, and his DM made him the man of the house, and favoured him over his younger siblings. When he met my mum (introduced by my DGM) he was still living at home at 35. Once he married my mum, he saw DGM about once a month.

My DM was the eldest daughter of 6 kids, who had to take care of the others when my DGP were ill for extended periods. Very close to them both til they died.

Looking at their upbringings through the lens of codependency makes so much sense to me. It's almost like my Nan 'passed' my dad to my mum. From one to the other.

She will send letters or get other people to text
It's easier if I reply to her WhatsApp when it suits me

Hi everyone, it's a while since I was here (probably a few years!) but I'd just like some opinions on this, but first just a brief bit of info for context.

I'm NC with my mother and have been for the last 4 years. I haven't actually spoken to her since my Dad's funeral in July 2016. She only lives about 3 miles away from me. She's 81.

She phoned me this morning and said this:
"I know you're not happy talking to me, but you ought to know that I've got a disease, and it could be genetic. So if you're interested we had better have a talk." I asked her to tell me now over the phone, and she said "no, I don't talk well over the phone. Goodbye" And that was it!!!

I am not prepared to go to her house to talk at all. I have thought about writing a letter to her and asking her to reply via letter? Or should I just leave it?
I would say that it's only in the last year since my Dad died that my nerves seem to be getting back to some normality, though I am on AD's.

An outsider's perspective would be appreciated.

girlandboy

I would take this from your mother with a huge pinch of salt. Some toxic parents do try and use illness or other health problems as a further way of trying to maintain and exert control over their now adult children.

Do you have siblings; if so how are they with her?.

I would let sleeping dogs lie and not contact her at all further, a letter from you will just give her a further"in" to contact you and mess with your head. Her contact today was really without substance, there was no apology and there was a complete lack of respect for your boundaries.

Block her number from your phone as well now.

Thanks Attila
Yes, my DH immediately said that it's just a ploy to get me to go round to her house not happening ever

I have a half sister who lives abroad who after being NC with our mother is now back in touch with her.

I'm not too worried about any genetic disease to be honest. She's got to the age of 81 with it!