"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello all. It's been a pretty rubbish weekend here. (I'm the one who sent a letter to my mum asking for an apology from her for throwing away my late father's things.)

Ever since I've had a litany of texts from her, where she said she was, then wasn't, then was going to write in response. Then she 'couldnt' because she had to go buy my sister some anadin(!). Then a text saying 'I don't have to answer to you. I'm making allowances. Me Mum. You daughter.' Then another one, bizarrely saying 'hang on in there'. Etc.

In a way I'm glad, because I have a written down record of her trying to manipulate me. And, now I've done some proper reading about BPD and codependency, I can recognise it clearly.

But the realisation of how abnormal everything is has made me feel so sad and isolated, even from my very lovely DP and best friend. I just don't feel I can dump this on them. And I don't know what to do, going forward. I know many of you would rightly, tell me to go NC. But I just can't. Not yet. The realisation of how my mum is is too recent. And of course, I still love her.

I've also realised how rife it may be in my family - at least 2 of my cousins are NC with their mothers. Two others have gone overseas and are only LC. Another cousin is ostracised by the entire family. One uncle is ostracised by his siblings. Another uncle has ostracised himself. I can't believe I've never noticed before. What a load of shit.

Sorry you've had a rough weekend lemon, sending unMN hugs.
It is sad and it can be isolating, but there are a lot of people here who have been through the same painful process and can hold your hand while you try to make sense of it and decide where to go from here.

Lemon I'm sorry for your miserable weekend.

Madam is completely right about here being a good place to explore your new feelings.

Many people don't go NC straight away. If you think you could try LC, have a Google of the concept of 'grey rock'-ing. (It basically means keeping interactions light and boring to buy yourself some space from emotional crappiness.) Also I found a book by Anne Katherine on setting boundaries to be enormously helpful - there are probably others on the same theme that are equally good.

Take some time to be nice to yourself and explore your feelings. And keep posting because there is usually someone in here who will have felt the same as you at some point.

Thank you spareroom and Madame. You can't know (or you probably do!) how nice it is to be able to pour this out unfiltered. I've just left a birthday party early - lots of my good friends there, but I was just too preoccupied think of anything to say. And jealous. So jealous that they all have relatively normal, supportive mothers, at 35! It makes me feel like a kid.

This is going to sound ridiculous I'm sure but here we go.

M always gives my 2 year old squash to drink. She says it's very dilute but it's not really. He thinks it's great and will drink 4 or 5 cups in a row as he has water at home so he doesn't drink it from thirst. It's sugar free so it's not a big deal...

The context is when she started looking after him when I was at work last year I said just water is fine but she thinks he doesn't drink enough so started to give him squash. Because I feel like any boundary setting it me being a nitpicky cow I said ok but not too much. However she knows I prefer him to have water. She makes this huge deal every time she sees him "OH HE WANTS SQUASH" then gives me a rueful smile and says "can he have some mummy oh it's his treat when he's with me" and I for some reason don't say no. If he saw her once or twice a month it would be a treat but he sees her more than that.

I know sugar free squash isn't the end of the world but the context of it it's like this power struggle between us. From the very start it feels like she's been determined he should drink anything other than water and that my thoughts about sugar consumption for a child were funny and it was her job as a gran to override this and give "treats".

It started with her sneaking him spoonfuls of icecream at Christmas when he was having his first taste of food at about 5.5 months old. She gave him one then kept giving him more laughing when I said that's enough and and saying oh but he likes it. After I'd said to stop.

So while I know squash is tiny in the scheme of things it's actually this big thing in my head that pisses me off every time I think about it. Others may remember a previous post of mine where she took him to a friend's house which I had explicitly said not to but that it was ok as "they stayed on the grass outside didn't go actually in the house". So this squash thing feels like a symptom of another thing where she basically does what she wants. She dresses it up as concern he doesn't drink enough but that's for me to worry about surely. I've said he's clearly not dehydrated and I'm not worried about his water intake.

I want to say something but it feels like making a fuss over a really tiny thing. I feel like maybe I'm overblowing it as it's representative in my head of a whole plethora of other stuff from my childhood where I felt I had no say? Should I tell her to stop?

I'm sorry to write an essay about squash but it's not the squash so much as the principle and that she should listen to me IYSWIM? I just genuinely don't know if telling her to stop is unreasonable. Is this how she gets me just controlling tiny things so I sound mental when I say anything?

lenl no it isn't unreasonable to expect your M not to give him squash if that's what you've requested. As you say, it's about the principle.

Yes absolutely you can tell her to stop, but you'll need to set a clear boundary, and if you want to set a boundary, you'll need a consequence (you don't necessarily have to tell her what it is, but you'll have to be prepared to do it) for if she pushes your boundary, and it'll need to be realistically enforceable. Can you think about whether that's something you can do?

I'm sure in your heart you know that the ultimate answer is not to leave your son with your M at all. Is there any way you can work towards doing that? He is YOUR son, not hers. No matter what she says or does, it is your right to choose how best to bring him up.

It's NOT making a fuss over a tiny thing. It's your conditioning telling you that, and she's using it to her advantage to control you.

lenl

Your mother was not a good parent to you and now she is playing out a similar dysfunctional dynamic with your child. Her actions are about power and control and wanting that over your son and undermining both your boundaries and you as this boy's mother. She is simply doing what she wants here.

I would now start looking for alternative childcare.

Lenl I think you have it exactly right. It's a power struggle, and she's making it something small because it makes it harder for you to enforce the boundary without feeling picky and ridiculous. My suspicion would be that she'll start small and then ramp up, ever so slowly, to bigger things. It's the kind of thing my mother used to try and do.

Compare and contrast. My MIL is basically a good egg. Last week when they were visiting she took them out a few times and each time checked with me if it was OK if they got some ice cream. She also, this was awesome - she went outside to get some raspberries from the garden one evening and DD1 went with her. DD2 only realised once they'd come back in and then was tearful that she'd missed out on picking raspberries with her gran. MIL asked her what was wrong but she wouldn't say, so 5 minutes later she got me alone and asked what was wrong and I told her and she went "oh god, I didn't even think" and went and got her shoes on and got DD2 and went out in the half dark and picked some more rasps with her. DD2 was very happy with this. I was so impressed. My mother would have taken it personally that DD2 was sad about missing out; would have been defensive, said that she couldn't be expected to know that the child wanted to go out with her, that she was spoiled, that she was too old to be throwing tantrums about not getting her way (she didn't throw a tantrum, she was just sad). My mother would certainly not have gone out and picked more raspberries. My mother would have sworn a vow to herself never, ever to touch the raspberries again because there were such complex and ridiculous rules at my house governing the picking of raspberries that the only way she could be sure of staying in the right was to not touch them. My mother is fucking exhausting

I was really grateful to my MIL not only for being adaptable and sensitive to the kids and making everything easier, but also just for modelling what it is like when a normal person interacts with their grandkids. All this bullshit with "oh a wee sweetie won't hurt him" and inapppropriate birthday presents and all the other subtle undermining - it's not normal, and when someone is doing it, they are doing it deliberately to wind you up. Why do we have to put up with people like that on a daily basis? We don't have to. We shouldn't have to.

Thank you for the replies. I honestly felt quite silly posting about something seemingly so trivial, really appreciate the understanding from you guys.

I just find it so so hard to say anything. To her everything is fine and I feel like announcing "no more squash" after a year of letting it go just feels really weird. I guess it is a bit, that's the problem with trying to set boundaries you previously haven't.

But I'm seeing her today and I'm going to say something. I think I've found a way I feel comfortable saying it that isn't especially accusatory so hopefully won't put her on the defensive.

In terms of childcare I'm trying to think what to do. I've got a plan so far which will reduce the amount she does from two full days (8am - 5pm) a week, plus an extra morning a fortnight, down to two afternoons (1pm- 5pm) which is a bit better

Didn't mean to press post. Was going to add my son loves her and in many ways she is great with them. Her life is far quieter now without the dysfunction present when I was growing up so I sort of feel that as long as it's not too much she's overall a positive for them. But I need to set clear boundaries and as mentioned have consequences. Which I haven't done so far. I'm prepared to say to her if she breaks a boundary that I can't trust her to look after them but if I haven't set a clear boundary in the first place that's much harder to do.
It's much easier to think she shouldn't have them alone than it is to put that into place. I have been suggesting to DP we move to Canada or something for a bit. My job is a wanted profession pretty much everywhere so I think I could get a work permit for a limited time in lots of places.

Says a lot I find the idea of living the other side of the planet easier I guess

I know what you mean toomuchtooold I look at how Mil and Fil are with them and it's very different. They're very affectionate and love him but they listen to what we say and I think would be quite horrified if we felt they were doing something we didn't want them to. Whereas M is cloyingly affectionate I don't know how else to do "cuddle me cuddle me, I love you so much, I'm the luckiest grandmother in the world, look at my little family, I love you all so much, my little family, you know he loves being with me so much he's happy the whole time he's just so pleased to see me and you know he always just let's me change his nappy he doesn't make a fuss" (unspoken: like the fuss he makes with you). It just feels too much which again feels like a shitty thing to say - Oh you're too loving towards your grandson... It sounds ridiculous doesn't it? And yet it makes me uncomfortable

Hello.

I may just need to join here. The more I think about it, the more I realise just how screwed up my family is.

I'm at a loss. My youngest brother has had a breakdown after being arrested (again) for sex offences (online and exposure) and I reckon this time he faces prison. He has big MH problems but has constantly and consistently downplays everything until crisis point. He's basically crashed and burned from being a teenager. Now my parents are involved, because he's lost everything (gambled everything) and so is living back at their house and both my parents are depressed, understandably by it.

Yet I want to walk away. If I'm honest I just wish my brother would sort himself out....yet I also know he can't, because of his MH issues. So I'm left feeling I must just be an awful person?

My childhood was littered with varying family crises, and I remember feeling very much that i had to be a good girl, do well at everything, to please, not to cause a fuss etc.

And I've had enough, now. I really have.

I feel awful as my brother clearly has huge issues but he's also an adult and after lots of problems and crises I can't help but thinking its never going to change and I'm just sick of being dragged into everyone's doom and gloom and his car crash of a life.

My kids don't like visiting my family more. It breaks my heart. But I have to protect them and their childhoods. And yet I also feel I should be helping my parents etc somehow.

It all feels really hard right now and I just want to scream and run away from it all.

I think my older siblings feel like I do. I don't want to broach it with them, as I'm scared they'll think I'm a selfish and awful person. I just want a normal life with my children.

The Hamptons

You have every right to walk away from your dysfunctional family of origin and have no further contact with your parents or brother. I certainly do not think you are either being at all selfish or awful here (you've used that word more than once; was it used against you a lot by your parents as well?)

Re your comment:-
Yet I want to walk away. If I'm honest I just wish my brother would sort himself out....yet I also know he can't, because of his MH issues. So I'm left feeling I must just be an awful person?

He can choose to sort himself out; he has simply chosen not to and has again taken the low road. Your parents as well have played a role here too in your dysfunctional family of origin, they have excused him throughout.

"My childhood was littered with varying family crises, and I remember feeling very much that i had to be a good girl, do well at everything, to please, not to cause a fuss etc".

And did that work; no because that's now left you with a whole host of emotional problems. That is the root causes of your own distress now; I would urge you to sit down with a therapist and start to properly unpick all this in you before it messes your head up even more. You also need to deal with your fear, obligation and guilt; those are but three of many damaging legacies your parents left you too. If you do want to help your parents (and actually I doubt very much if they want your help, realistically what can you do re them anyway) then help your own self first and reach out to your siblings. I doubt very much that they will think you are either selfish or awful frankly.

You're right; you do have to protect your children from your dysfunctional family of origin, particularly your brother. Many people out there have MH issues and do not ever choose to act as your brother has done; there is no excuse or justification here.

I did it!

I said: "We've decided that while he is young enough for us to decide, we want him to just drink water"
M: "So no squash or anything?"
Lenl: "No, just water. If you put the bottles where he can't see them he won't ask as much"
M: "No he marches in and asks for it straight away"
Lenl: "Well you'll have to say no"
M: let's out a very quiet disbelieving laugh.
"Ok well, it's up to you"
Lenl: "Thank you. I need you on board"
M "I always do what you say, you know that"
I then said well no you don't always and raised the issue of her taking my son to her friends house. Again she said she didn't as she didn't take him in the house and I replied come on, that's a technicality and anyway I don't really want him sitting outside the flat in what is a notorious small estate - where her drug dealer lived if that gives some context. I also added her friend gave him a small toy that when opened smelt of cannabis and had clearly been used to store it. She didn't reply then she did her sulking that is so subtle it's all but impossible to call her out: chose not to respond to me then didn't make eye contact the rest of her visit and left quickly. I'm only now realising how shitty that kind of response it and how much of a mind fuck it is. It would almost be easier if she flew off the handle as then it's obvious.

TheHamptons that sounds tough. Although you have been conditioned to be the caretaker for your family, your brother really is not your responsibility and you are not an awful person for wanting to protect your children (and yourself) from all that drama and negativity.

As Attila said, plenty of people with mental health problems don't behave that way.

When you always have to be the 'good girl' putting yourself first (or even not putting yourself last) feels selfish but it truly truly is not.

Thank you everyone. I'm going to be very unpopular when I have to tell them he can't see the kids.

My mum in particular has ostrich syndrome and also plays the martyr. She's depressed but won't take anti-depressants after a bad experience with one etc. She's lovely (both my parents are) but they're hopeless at saying no and just get dragged into everyone's dramas.

But that's the way it has to be.

I'm seeing the gp this week to ask for some sort of help or referral for therapy.

I hate adulting sometimes

The Hamptons

I do not think your parents are "lovely" at all; they failed you utterly in and from childhood. Lovely people do not play the martyr nor bury their heads in the sand (I am also looking at you MIL).

I would not worry yourself unduly about supposedly being unpopular with them. Being matter of fact about this is something they cannot argue against. Better being "unpopular" as well than having your brother around your children at all. He has been arrested again and could well go to jail this time. Your parents and he are therefore not the priority here.

By all means ask your GP about therapy. However, on the NHS this can take an age to arrange, it can be limited in scope and you could very well receive only a small number of sessions. I would therefore contact BACP and see if they can help you.

They picked up a lot of other people's poor choices and MH problems, and tried to help deal with consequences of these. They had a stressful time and genuinely are kind, good people but they stretched themselves too thinly. The result of which I think I was conscious of the stress in the house from the issues of others in the family...and so have overcompensated by being a total perfectionist. It's a bit cod psychology but I'm assuming it arises from my wanting to make things easier for them.

I don't know where to start over the past two years I have given bits of myself but never my full self on here. My kids have no grandparents, aunts, uncles or cousins and tbh with you they don't deserve my kids. I have to put my kids into boarding school so they can have another family. Which I am very fortunate to be able to afford.

On the day my son was born literally my mum thought she would start on me about my partner of 15 years by the way all of a sudden. I told her exactly what I thought of her I think my midwife who took care of me thought I was talking about her. My mother doesn't want to know my kids but yet she would want me to look after her arse later on.

My dad is cross dressing twat who at his age of 70 still doesn't know who he is or what he wants. Who the fuck wants to spend their retirement on the fucking computer playing fucking games. When I'm old I would spend it with my grandchildren not fucking games. The bloke is a joker.

My aunt spent a whole year last year deciding whether to talk to me or not she sent the kids gift cards and I ignored her. Kids need emotion and see happy family members who want to see them. They are fucking clueless.

I'm not angry anymore I decided this year to cut them off so I can focus more on my kids and get them to where they need to get to. I will talk to my mum one day but I have to make sure I am strong before I do that. I will never allow my family to fuck up my kids heads like they have fucked with mine over the years. They are now insignificant in my life.

My partner does say things like you will look after her one day your not cruel. Honestly that would kill me what has she done for me lately for me and my kids or in the last 13 years. The answer is nothing.

I did worry about how my emotions would affect my children and thats why we put them into boarding school. Its there second family.

TheHamptons

Your brother needs prison or a hospital you cant save him. I know its hard but you have to show support but be honest with him. You are going to jail and you have to think about what you're doing. Make him tell you what he done it will be shameful for him. After your parents go you are left with the mess. Thats what I have learned this year from my partner after his mother died you are left with a mess.

Why does the anxiety spill over into other areas of your life. Maybe I need some kind of therapy.

"Why does the anxiety spill over into other areas of your life. Maybe I need some kind of therapy."

Because these people programmed you from infancy, pulling. I think therapy is a great idea.

HorridHenry you are so right.

Well he's up shit creek then as my and my other siblings aren't anywhere near as sympathetic or nice as my parents are.

That's half the issue. I think the rest of us would just cut him out but clearly that's not going to be remotely possible

And you sound so strong and determined. You're a fab mum to give that to your children.

I'd love to send mine privately but can't afford it, sadly. Not living where we do

I'm new here, though I've dipped in and out.
I can't talk too much, don't trust the open internet.
But can you just gently stroke my hair?
I always feel paralysed and not sure what to do when things happen in my family.
I get shouted at if I do or say something, and sniffed at if I do nothing.
Another family member wants me to keep the bully happy because they are dependant on them and can't cope with the extreme moods that I cause...

I can't walk away, the older family member (who wants me to do the least possible to upset the applecart) is frail and I want to keep involved in their life.

HorridHenryrule, you are your kid's family. And you shove them in a boarding school? Where can they get emotional attachment from? I don't get it. To me it sounds like they have 0 family.