"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Lemon,

So sorry to hear this.

" I can't tell myself this is normal behaviour for a mother towards her grieving daughter. "

It's not normal. Not normal at all. I'm sorry.

@MrsASoprano it's not, is it? It's normal for her, I guess. But it never really mattered before.

It does matter. All of it matters and I think you've done the right thing by laying it out for her.

You can't control her response, but you can at least know that you gave her the opportunity to respond to what you had every right to say.

Thank you. You're right, I can't control her response. But I know I'm hoping my letter will shock her into a more sympathetic version of herself.

By complaining and bringing it out into the open though I'm scared i'm turning into my father who makes everything about himself

You're not turning into him. The opposite of making it all about you doesn't have to be having no needs or feelings at all. You are seeking help and a listening ear from appropriate people (not your kids!). Your father is emotionally blackmailing people to get them to do things they would never want to do. There is a world of difference.

If you have issues with expressing your needs and knowing what you should be able to expect from others, you might find the book Codependency for Dummies interesting. Also, either of the books from Pete Walker which are about complex trauma and emotional literacy, might be interesting to you.

sunflower I ((hugs)) from me as well.

I think you might be going into one of the hardest bits of recovery where you are going to be mourning the loss of what hopes you had about your relationship with your parents. I would second what Attila said about counselling (PM if you want contact details for a very lovely, gentle therapist who is not a million miles from you and who does Skype sessions).

I feel like we swapped places as I came out here also in 2014 and while I do drive, what I really envy you is your excellent English. You should hear my German. I feel as if so much has been taken away from me. I am also not working and it frustrates me that just when I got a handle on what the hell was wrong withe, I lost the chance to go and try it out in my workplace and with friends and stuff. I resent having to go and start from zero, specially after this big insight about my childhood. I find that very hard to get past.

For what it's worth, I urge you to remember that you don't deserve being treated like this by your parents. You deserve so much better.

Hello lemon. I'm very sorry for your loss.

I'm hoping my letter will shock her into a more sympathetic version of herself.

I suspect it will do the opposite, making her throw up defences against this challenge to her view of herself as perfect. On the other hand, sometimes narcissists do fall into line if they think you are serious. In any case I hope you manage to get in and get some of your dad's things that you would like to have. (I would advise against letting her know what they are - she might then deliberately throw them away as punishment for the letter.)

Anyway, good luck

Thanks to you all for the kind words and the links. I will read them all. Also, hugs to everyone else this has happened to, i can't offer help as I can't get my head straight myself but I guess it's a bit reassuring to know others are going through the same and are sympathetic.

Has anyone got any advice on how to deal with parents judgement and pressure/favouritism for c**tface sister?
I've been seeing a therapist that repeatedly tells me I grew up in a very controlling environment and has made me see it for myself, which I've found hard. I could never treat my children how they treat me.
I just feel like nothing is good enough and I'm expected to still roll over and take any shit my cow of a sister throws at me. They always get involved and they always take her side no matter how much of a cunt she's been. I've recently stopped taking her shit and no longer see her which again is all my fault because I can't just "get on" I always have to "start something".
I'm at a loss with what to do anymore. Since having my DD it has become so much worse as I don't want history repeating itself when my sister has children.
Sorry for the rant!! Any help would really be appreciated.

Thank you @toomuchtooold. It's been a horrible year.

I've just read a very interesting article about codependent parents which I thought I'd share: https://eftforpeace.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/enmeshed-parenting-the-codependent-parent/

It's like they've met her! It does give me hope though - apparently codependents have empathy.

lemon thank you for that link. That is my parents to a T as well! It's the clearest summary of it I've come across and it feels good to have it described. Sometimes codependency mimics a normally dependent relationship, even to yourself, so it's hard to hang on to your gut reality of it being dysfunctional, and it really helps to see it written down like that.

Lemon I also want to thank you for that link. That is also my parents to a Tee. Following on from my story I have been told through the grapevine that what happened with my father was that someone in the wider family circle who I'd told exactly what he'd done to us over the years bumped into my father and called him out over his behaviour to us.

My father was embarrassed, angry and upset at having his name 'blackened' and so now has gone off the deep end over it. He hasnt contacted me directly over it though (which speaks volumes) but is now playing the victim card with his mother (my gran) who has turned a blind eye to it. This has enraged him further.

What he doesn't seem to realise or care is that yes, he did hurt us! All he cares about is his image and how others perceive him. He doesn't care about OUR feelings at all. But the tables have now been turned and he doesn't like it. When he threw me out of his life he also lost control of me. I am now free to tell the world about my upbringing - no longer do I have to keep the 'family secrets' for him. No longer am I the little girl who was being emotionally abused, manipulated, used as a scapegoat, expected to be the mini adult but also told 'don't tell anyone'in order to keep up the facade of happy families for him.

Its quite liberating actually.

@SpareBedroom I'm so glad it rings true for you too. When I read it, my jaw dropped. Its also good to find a description I recognise - the full narcissist profile never really fit the bill, as I don't think she's behaving this way on purpose. It's important to remember it's still harmful, though. Whether they mean it or not.

Lemon

I am sorry to read of your father's passing.

Presumably she made his funeral all about her as well. Not at all surprised to read that she is now the "grieving widow". My MIL never cared an iota for her late H either (well only for his money), infact she could not stand to be in the same room as him and their disdain for each other was palpable.

As an adult child of a narcissist you have empathy but your mother does not. She also taught you codependency; your parents own marriage was likely to be based on an unhealthy codependency as well.

I cannot emphasise enough the lack of empathy such disordered of thinking people like your mother have. The article you put up is mainly about codependent adult children rather than the narcissistic parent which is a different ballgame entirely. You have been well trained since early childhood to serve her and put your own self last. Your hope too that this letter will somehow make her feel more sympathetic anyway is a forlorn one.

If you want to read more I would suggest you read the Daughters of Narcissistic mothers website.

Unfortunately you have applied the "normal" rules of familial interactions to someone as disordered of thinking as your mother is. It does not work at all, that rule book goes out the window when it comes to dysfunctional families.

I would have personally not advised you to send such a letter at all but its done now. Now you have to prepare for the fallout from same; a letter no matter how nicely worded and about your feelings will be seen as an attack. You will likely now come across the full force of her narcissistic rage. Alternatively she may not respond at all but she likely will because you have given her an "in" to do so. I would not unblock her number.

@Blamedagain I'm so glad you're feeling liberated. Use your anger. Your DP you mentioned earlier sounds fab.

The whole 'what will people think?' thing is true for me too. For my dad's funeral, my mum insisted (through anger and silent treatment) that I and my DP stay at hers the night before (we live 2 hours drive away) because it was 'tradition', and she was worried her sisters would ask questions if we didn't. Never mind she knew I'd rather be at home.

Frankly, I wouldn't want her out of my life completely, but i now know I must try and renegotiate the way we are and how I feel about her.

Lemon

re your comment:-

"When I read it, my jaw dropped. Its also good to find a description I recognise - the full narcissist profile never really fit the bill, as I don't think she's behaving this way on purpose. It's important to remember it's still harmful, though. Whether they mean it or not".

Well you would like to think she is not behaving this way on purpose because its hard to accept that yes she is behaving like this purposefully and with malicious intent. Its all for her own self and self interest; you are but bit part players with her at the centre of her own perfectness and universe. I would tell you straight out that emotionally healthy people do not and would never act as your mother has done before or after your dad died. She treated him with contempt as well but he stayed with her for his own reasons.

What is your sister's relationship with your mother like?. Does she feel the same as you do?.

Your penultimate sentence here is very true. What that article is writing about is the effects codependent parenting has on the now adult child. She taught you how to be codependent.

Lemon,

Re your comment:-
"Frankly, I wouldn't want her out of my life completely, but i now know I must try and renegotiate the way we are and how I feel about her".

Can I ask why that is?. I also think that you are also going to have to in time completely reassess how you feel about her. There is no "we" in this when it comes to your mother; she does not give a monkeys about her late DH, you or your sister. She only cares about what other people like authority figures (such people are very afraid of them) and her own sisters may think.

If someone else was telling you this about their mother what would your counsel be?.

@AttilaTheMeerkat lots of food for thought here. Thank you very much.

Although I'm afraid of the immediate fallout, (she's unblocked now). I'm glad I wrote and sent the letter. However she reacts I want to know for sure that I've said my piece, even if it doesn't get 'heard'. I know she might twist it. But on this, I know how angry and upset I feel and she can't touch it.

Going into work now. Thank all you ladies. Will check in later.

Hello all,

Im new to this board but have been on mumsnet for some time (cubes of poo, Pom bears, the bat)

I've recently gone NC with my family. Not intentionally but I left it for them to get in touch and they haven't.

My childhood certainly was not as bad as some and at the time I didn't think it was abusive or neglectful but since I had my own children it's really affected me. I ended up in an absuve marriage for a decade and I think, in part, that's because my self esteem was so low and I was programmed to be a 'fixer'.

I'm now at crisis point. Had extensive CBT after my divorce and did the Freedom programme (it was ace). I became quite physically ill recently and meant I am less useful to my parents and siblings. I distanced myself as I've been struggling mentally and they are now accusing me of betraying them and abandoning them. It's all about them. It always has been.

Both alcoholics, both have mental health problems (bi polar and schizophrenia), both had awful childhoods.

I feel like I'm being disloyal and I should be taking care of them but I can't. I'm at an all time low. I've already been diagnosed with anxiety, depression plus loads of gynea problems. Have an emergency appointment today as I'm not coping and I'm sure I have PTSD or something.

I feel like I'm falling apart. I don't want to blame them but I shouldn't have had to cope with what I did. I lost my childhood. I wasn't able to be a kid. My earliest memory is them having an argument and each asking me to go with them. I remember thinking "who will be the most sad if I go? Who will be ok on their own?" I was 3.

I have two children of my own. One with ASD. Now with a lovely man who takes good care of us all and adores me. I can't get my head round why he even wants to be with me but he thinks I'm wonderful. Annoying at times but wonderful none the less. He sees me.

Why am I falling apart now when I'm finally being taken care of?

I feel so weak and defective and rubbish. Like I've let everyone down by not being stronger, not being perfect. I'm the fixer. I'm the one who shows a good face to the world. I'm excellent in emergencies...but I can't pick up the phone to speak to the gas man. What's wrong with me?

Sorry, typed far more than I meant to

Hi MadameDeZafon,

I'm so sorry, that sounds like a terrible upbringing.

I just wanted to suggest an answer to your question:

"Why am I falling apart now when I'm finally being taken care of?"

I had a very chequered/abusive childhood followed by quite some years in the wilderness of shared houses, drugs and alcohol.

I calmed down and lot, met my DH, had 2 wonderful children and was fine.

No sooner did my youngest reach school age than a drip-drip towards mental breakdown began.

I've been in therapy for about 18 months and am so much better.

The thing I wanted to share with you that my therapist said is that our mind takes these things away from us when we are children and too small to deal with them. It gives them back once we reach a place of safety and are strong enough to face them.

That helped me a lot as I felt as though I was so weak when I first broke down, but actually it was a sign that I was in a safe place and strong enough to deal with things.

My breakdown sounded exactly like yours:

"I feel so weak and defective and rubbish. Like I've let everyone down by not being stronger, not being perfect. I'm the fixer. I'm the one who shows a good face to the world. I'm excellent in emergencies...but I can't pick up the phone to speak to the gas man. What's wrong with me?"

Would you consider some more in depth counselling/therapy?

Thanks for replying MrsASoprano.

It's good to hear someone else has been through similar and the thought of it happening now because im strong and safe is quite comforting.

I can't afford private therapy st the moment. I'm unable to work due to various health issues and having SN children, but not quite sick enough for Atos to take it seriously

I'm booked to see a new GP this afternoon. I don't know where to start so I've written all my symptoms down. I don't think I'll be able to verbalise well but hopefully they will be ok to read it and then have a chat.

I feel like there's so much trying to get out of this box, I don't know where to start.

DH has said he will take on extra work for me to see a private therapist/psychologist/whatever is needed for me to process...but it feels very self-indulgent and a little dramatic.

So my mother phoned and actually asked me for money today!
She's been leading up to it with tales of woe and suicide threats

I managed to be strong and refused.
I have made helpful suggestions (lodger, Airbnb)
I cannot support her along with my 3 dcs as a lone parents, I don't want to either, she never learns, she will just spend it

Thanks for the hugs and kind words Attila. I am still waiting to see the Psychologist; I received a letter in May after an initial assessment which stated I should get an appointment within twelve weeks, but I haven't heard anything yet.

I know I need to start driving again and ultimately find a job and get on with my life, but at the moment everything feels overwhelming.

Sorry forgot to add: I am still seeing the CPN in the meantime, but she has reduced my appointments from once a week to once a fortnight