"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks @sparebedroom. That's really useful. Yeah - the second method does sound like harder work in the short term but better in the long run! I'm aware that if I try to force him to do what I want I'm just becoming my mother!

I have at times said that it's up to him how and when he responds but I also often say things like 'oh no, don't reply to that' if I know she's texted him. Sometimes he's looking for my guidance as it's my DM, but other times he isn't so I probably need to back off a bit on those occasions.

There's been a bit of him taking his frustration at her out on me - in that he'll complain to me about her texting/phoning him. I usually respond with: 'know you know how it's been for me for years'.

Generally though he's being pretty supportive.

I wonder if that technique you're thinking of @sparebedroom was a thing I linked to about "dropping the rope"? It sounds similar anyway, I'll dig it out later.

@serioussteve are you meaning for that subthread to be here or in the statelysurvivors forum? I can stick it in there.

Thanks toomuch - yes, I think it was! I couldn’t remember the expression so was googling other search terms that weren’t getting me anywhere. Thanks.

Cool! This is it here - dropping the rope, a way of dealing with blowback from third parties when they're keeping you in contact with someone difficult.

Ooh - thank you. Will read that link when I get a moment!

Hi folks. Just popping back to fill you in on the latest developments.

Spoke to DS today as he had told DH that mum whispered to him calling me a bitch, a prick and an idiot. It took him 6+months to tell us as he was scared DH would go ranting to mum about her slating me.

I told DS that the comeback for him, if he was lying would be him being labelled as a troublemaker, and that afterward people, including myself, would find it very hard to trust a single thing he said, if I found out he was lying about what his nanna had said. He understood the severity of what I was on about and was still absolutely adamant that mum had said these things about me.

I can't make any comments about her, because I have been NC for over a year now, so I feel that I don't know her well enough to pass judgement, and TBH, what she has called me I rolled my eyes at because it shows the pathetic lows she'd go to in order to try and get a rouse out of me. I'd be happy to inform her that it hasn't worked and that she needs to do better than that if she wants me to even look in her direction

It is sad that she feel she has to stoop to this level, but TBH, I wouldn't expect anything less from her. It's a shame she has to bring DS into issues that are solely between me and her. DS got up and walked out on her, telling her that what she said about me was disgusting, and that he'll never be back to see her again. So she shot herself in the foot with that one.

Both DS and DD now see what mum is like. I know that if I confronted her about it, she'd deny it happened, and there was no other witnesses because she is crafty that way. Her word against DS's. No doubt Br2 will probably say that I'll get no inheritance when she dies, to which I'll ask what his point is??? I'm not bothered about money. All I was after was a loving relationship, which I got from my beloved, wonderful, late MIL. We're moving in January anyway, so I can't wait to get away from here (I'm in NI).

Anyway, thanks for opening an ear folks. I don't think I've told many of you how much I appreciate you all just listening. You're all such great people, who understand what I'm rambling on about. I hope you're all managing to get through each day at a time. Baby steps and all that, when it comes to LC/NC/setting firm boundaries etc.

Steve, so sorry to hear what you've been going through, and I'm sorry you feel that you're a bit of a lone soul on here. I hope your condition doesn't deteriorate any further for a long, long time I understand that it can be quite depressing knowing that it isn't going to be cured any time soon. All I can say is that you can always post on here.

Hi there. I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post but I have no one to discuss this with. I am a longtime poster but I NC regularly.

I just found out today through a third party that my dad is not my biological father as I had suspected for some time. My heart is broken and my head is a mess.
I think I'm angry at my mother for keeping this secret I'm over 40 years old.
How do I have this conversation with her? The person who I believe is my father passed away a long time ago but I think I will have siblings from him.
This just explains so much about my childhood and relationships. I'm scared this is going to make my already fragile mental health get even worse.
Sorry this is jumbled. I don't even know what to say or do, I wish I had someone in rly to talk to.

Hi nameis - I don't know if there's anyone currently on the thread who's had a similar experience to you but please feel free to talk about it on here. We're happy to listen if nothing else.

You mention your childhood and mental health. Am I right in thinking that all was not well during your childhood - you feel now that perhaps your family's attitude to you was influenced by the fact of your parentage?

How do you think your mother will react if/when you bring up what you've learned? Do you have the sort of relationship where it's easy to talk about big subjects?

@toomuchtooold Well duh, meant to be in stately. Too much time in hospital, lack of sleep, and operations on family, and more to come pre year end.

I'll be dropping you an email in the near future, hopefully this weekend.

So if you could pop my sub in SS that'd be great!

@toomuch. Just read the link. V helpful. Thank-you

Hello toomuch thank you for replying.
I somehow managed to sleep last night but couldn't eat or concentrate today with worry. I talked to mum and just asked her outright. She says that it's not true and she doesn't remember having a relationship with anyone but my father, (pause) around the time of my conception but then proceeded to ask my how I felt about it all and if I was upset?!?
I'm really not sure what to think now. The source of information was adamant about what they knew and also knew other information about the family that I know to be correct. I'm not sure if my mother is choosing to forget?!?
I told her that it had confirmed my experience of being singled out in the family and looking different from everyone else always searching to belong as a child and an adult and she said nothing in response.
I don't know what to do, I think my gut believes the third party

So do you wonder if your mother was sounding you about how you would feel if it turned out to be true? I wonder, if it is true, if she will come back to you and tell you. Maybe it took her by surprise? If it's true, she's been hiding it for so long, it might take her a while to be ready to talk about it?

How do you feel about it? Do you know what you want to do? I don't know if this is anything you would want to do but I'm guessing that a DNA test could establish whether you and your siblings are full siblings? It's not the same as hearing it from your mother, of course.

I thought that maybe she was trying to sound me out too but she has already been in contact today insisting that she did not have a relationship with the man in question or remember anyone else. She says that she is upset and angry but has asked who going to discuss thus with and if I'm going to consider a DNA test!
I feel bad for bringing her upset as this isn't what I want but I do feel very relieved for bringing it out after years of wondering.
I want to believe that she would tell me the truth but I wonder if she's convinced herself that nothing happened.

It doesn't sound like the reaction of someone who is 100 percent convinced there's no issue, does it? Although I suppose it was more shameful back in the day also. It's hard for me to judge. My own mother would go batshit at the mere whiff of scandal but she's not right in the head so I don't have much insight into what a normal reaction is.

Your right. She hasn't been firm or overly confident in her response. She said she thinks it's wrong for people to lie about these things in this day and she and would tell me if something had been different. Something doesn't feel right though.

Name, if your gut instinct says that something isn't right, that tends to be the case. And I would trust my instinct before trusting anything that anyone says.

I think a DNA test will put your mind at rest, as to whether or not your 'dad' is your actual bio dad.

Just because your mum doesn't remember, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It comes down to one thing though, if your 'dad' isn't your bio dad, then it's obvious that your mum did have an affair. So your mum cannot blame you at all. It was her choice to sleep with another man, and her choice to gestate and give birth to you. None of this was your choice, so her actions are totally her responsibility, and hers only.

I wonder what your mum will say if it turns out that you have a different dad??? She'll have a lot of explaining to do to you.

Apologies for being so rude. Got kettle on, so there's and for anyone who wants/needs it

Hello everyone :)

I have posted quite recently about my relationship (lack of it) with my mum.
Me and my siblings were emotionally abused by our controlling step father. My mum actually left my brother behind, aged 9. Which has had awful consequences.
Me and my sister have many mental scars but we get on with our lives.
I have needed my mum more than my sister so I have accepted her very self absorbed behaviour. Until I started to feel like my past was coming back to haunt me as my dd's are getting older.
After lots of self care and self counselling (google) I decided to approach my mum on her behaviour because I was feeling not only anger and upset but I started to dislike her.
Anyway....i mentioned that it would be lovely if.....and I feel hurt by....! I also highlighted what I do for mine, hoping she would see....
After 2 months nothing changed.
I approached it again saying that my mental scars are coming back as she continues to throw herself into her new relationship (always does this but when single I am convenient).
She said I was being mean and spiteful. Ignoring that I was struggling.
She has now told me she will not help me with childcare for me to complete a placement of shifts at uni. I'm half way through and so far managed to juggle childcare. I kept saying to her leading up until now are you sure you can help, yes she kept saying. Now, all of a sudden she says no as this new guy wants her to work for him and she says helping me is too much.
The reason I'm posting is. Although I have been let down by her all my life. It's like final, that she can be this uncaring. She has also said she isn't coming to Christmas dinner. Basically she will continue to ignore me now. Is that it? I could never act this way to my girls. It's like a huge remix see of how she has always never cared. Always plays the victim.

Thanks scrufbag ive usually always thought to go with your instincts or first reaction. There is definitely more to this.
I guess I'll see what the coming days/weeks bring as something will come to light. I don't want to upset my mum or cause a family rift so I may well have to leave it be?!?
Having a DNA will require having a conversation with dad also, that will break him

Hi everyone...I hope some of you will still remember me.

I’m sorry I disappeared yet again...I am really struggling and some days it is really hard to function.

Anyway...I have been allocated a new therapist...saw him last week for the first time and going back on Monday.

Although I haven’t spent much time with him I already feel a lot more comfortable with him than with the previous one.

Also I stupidly made contact with my sister. I sent an email and a letter (in case email address has changed).

That was about four weeks ago and I haven’t heard anything.

I am dreading Christmas and trying so hard to keep it all together.

to everyone

sunflower I remember you! Greetings from (not very) sunny Germany!

I'm really sad to hear that your sister hasn't been in touch, as it sounds like you always got along well with her, despite her being the golden child? I wonder if maybe she's come under pressure from your parents to take sides.
All of the situations of people on here are unfair but yours seems particularly so. Your parents seem to have just taken against you, and it's hard to see what you could have done to change that. I don't know if there's a possibility that you might take some comfort from that - knowing that it really wasn't anything you could do anything about?

Glad to hear that things are going better with the new therapist... I do hope you can get through Christmas OK. Would it help maybe to do something totally unchristmassy? Go up walking in the Highlands or something like that? It's really beautiful this time of year, if a bit cold.

Thanks for the kind words since I last posted.

Just wanted to ask a quick question - has anyone else felt insecure, like an embarrassment, and utterly afraid of failure - to the absolute point of doing everything you can to ensure doing anything productive, following a dismal childhood with a golden child sibling and being shunned, except when they (parents) could profit?

Oops, bit longer than I thought it'd be. Also, I will retain my account, just won't be around much I guess. Fuck health problems. Cheers :)

Hiya Steve, I had a different family setup to you but I identify with procrastinating and feelings of embarrassment. I tend to go off into flight response - eating, playing console games. Whenever anything matters, I find it much harder to do - have had this writing project on the go for ages, have written about as much of fanfiction in the same time - the internal critic doesn't activate when it's fanfiction, only with the serious stuff, as there's no danger of it being something I could be a big success at.
I think for me there's also something about confusing discipline and self discipline. I had a gutful of control as a kid, the idea of using self discipline to push through really turns me off unless something threatens my survival. I don't know if that means that I haven't figured out something to do that satisfies my core values. I suspect that my core values might be "leave me in peace".

The point about self-discipline makes heaps of sense, thanks for that Too, you have mail btw

Steve I get the embarrassment thing. I had a job interview last week (didn’t get it) and had that thing where after the event you realise how much better you could have answered the questions. I got this horrible feeling of shame, out of proportion to the event (it was my first interview of this kind so ballsing-up some of the questions was understandable). I couldn’t really work out why I felt so ashamed - it didn’t make any rational sense - and in the end I decided it must be something I learnt to feel in childhood, although I can’t pin it down to any particular event.