"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Membership request sent!

And yes, thank you. Fab idea.

I‘d be interested in the other thread too as I haven‘t been able to post due to this being public.

Do you find yourself playing a role with your family?
This weekend I found myself being a scared little girl again and walking on eggshells when visiting paternal members of my family. And I've no idea how to stop it. I don't even know what I'm scared of. This family members are actually nice and encouraging aswell, so it doesn't make sense to me?

I'd also be interested in the other thread.

@toomuchtooold great idea - I have signed up!

Ive sent a request.
Great idea.

I’ve put in a request to join the other thread as well. There’s a message saying ‘Pending approval’ right now.

Can just ask people, if you're registering on the Stately Survivors forum with a nickname different to your Mumnset one, to PM me to confirm it's you? I want to do everything I can to make sure the forum stays secure. Thanks!

Tentatively stepping in here...

I've been a long time user of MN since my eldest was born 9 yrs ago but under a different username. I got slightly addicted and had to step away. Now I'm in a different place in life and decided to come back. I have read a few posts on these threads over the years and although i never felt brave enough to post here I have often wished I was. During those times I was still in contact with my mother.

Over the past year and a half things came to a head and we are NC now. I have discovered a lot more things and I know I've made the right decision to cut her out.

I am now 39 weeks pregnant and struggling with that she's my mum thing and this is a new grandchild for her and perhaps I've made the wrong choice even though my logical brain tells me I haven't.

Bit of background: grew up in a violent household. My dad was physically and emotionally abusive to me and my brothers and my mum. She was just as bad. They'd cheat on each other willy nilly. He'd leave, come back, she did nothing to protect us etc etc. They divorced but he still came back for sex. We would regularly hear her having sex with whoever it was at the time. Lots of boyfriends coming and going. I have not seen my dad since I was 11. I'm now 30. She had another child by him when I was 13 but I'd gone off the rails by then and never saw him.

I moved out and grew up and saw things for what they were. We had a semi normal mother daughter relationship that she thought was fine but I always felt it was a bit forced and going thru the motions. I had my own kids (now 9 and 6) and she would always make out it was such a chore to have them or spend time with them so I never asked and contact was minimal.

I got married and divorced across the 10 years. Met my current dp and we are expecting a baby together after 4 yrs together. Things very stable. She got back with my dad and brought him back into everyone's lives. This destroyed me. I couldn't accept it and made the decision to go NC. It all got thrown back in my face etc. She made a comment that this child I'm carrying now would never be welcomed into the family or accepted as she doesn't like my dp. She even made up some story that i forced her to abort a baby that she conceived on a ONS which is completely untrue.

My baby is due this week. Hormones are getting to me. Just wanted a sounding board really. So much has happened I can't possibly tell you all of it. This post is already too long

I did use paragraphs but the app has removed them, sorry!

Bloody hell Hopeful, that's a load to be dealing with.

You're doing the right thing. Your dad was abusive and your mother, as you say, hardly better. Your own kids are out of the cycle of abuse, which is fantastic.
It's a natural thing we do, to seek to establish and maintain a relationship with our parents, to expect time and again that this time they will be different. But they never are. You know that though, I'm not telling you anything new. I would imagine you'll soon be fielding the expectations of friends, healthcare professionals etc ("ooh, so when's Gran coming to visit then?" err, when hell dries up and freezes over?)
If you needed an excuse - and you don't, you really don't - to not let your mother back in, the things she's already said about her unborn grandchild would be enough. He or she won't be welcomed into the family? Well, screw the bloody family then.

Anyway, I hope that posting is allowing you to get some of those feelings about your family of origin processed so that you can get onto thinking about the baby. Congratulations! And good luck!

I have just been told about this thread. I haven't read it all, should I?
I'm in a position where I'm not sure if I need to literally tell my mum how I feel so we cut contact for good. I know we will because my mum can't change. Or put myself through this awfully feeling of anger/dislike/sadness and false a smile every time I see her? I have cut contact slowly but obviously still speak/see her. I'm dreading Christmas. Do people just put up with this feeling instead of causing upset??

Hi cupcakes - no, you don't have to read the whole thread. It's more of a gigantic rolling conversation - people just come on and post their issues, like you have

Do people just put up with this feeling instead of causing upset??

I did for years, and would probably still be doing it if she hadn't started to target my kids in her unending quest for drama. You don't have to though. God, how much easier life got after NC.

Thankyou :)

How do you have NC? I have a duty as a daughter to at least check in to make sure she is Ok?
What about when she contacts me?

cupcakes the way I look at it is, my M had a duty to be a good mother to me in the sense of loving me unconditionally and allowing me to be me, rather than an appendage that served her needs.

She didn’t do that, so I don’t feel I have a duty towards her any more.

In any case, my primary duty is to look after myself, as I can’t successfully look out for anyone else unless my own needs are met first.

No you don’t need to read the whole thread. I spent a whole day once, when I was off work, just lying on the sofa and trawling through old Stately homes threads on here, and I didn’t even scratch the surface! (Very therapeutic though.)

Thankyou :)

Yes, that is very true! That makes me see it very differently. My mother will wallow in self putty now though. It's like I need to tell her how to be a mum. She is forever aski g 'how' or 'what' she should say/do as a parent/friend/colleague. It's like she doesn't know how to not be selfish. She would rather now accept my distancing (got to be obvious) and feel sorry for herself than try to rectify any kind of relationship with us.

I’m (finally, after many years) NC with one of my parents (narcissist, violent, probably other undiagnosed disorders. Parents are divorced and I’m low contact with the other parent, enabling of the narcissism and a barely functioning alcoholic with a fondness for self destruction)

A relative recently died and a lot of things have been brought up - disturbing things I’ve found out from before I was born (too outing to give details but think along the lines of inappropriate sexual behaviour of my parent).
Also memories of my childhood have surfaced - no sexual abuse but lots of emotional and mental abuse, neglect and lots of violence too.
I’m a parent myself now and I’d like to put this behind me and get on with being a parent without this emotional baggage following me around. Where do I start? I feel like if I tell the truth about things I’ll sound like a liar - if you were to meet the family in my youth you’d never know this all went on. Also I’ve managed to detach myself from the parent in particular and have also compartmentalised a lot of my childhood so day to day things don’t bother me but I find triggers in the oddest of places (the Bad Moms Christmas film triggered the current wave, for pity’s sake!) so I’ve decided enough is enough...

If I start with talking therapy what should I look for in a counsellor are there specific skills for this? Any pointers would really be welcome!

I've not been around much lately, predominantly because my health has deteriorated to the point i'm bed-bound and only leaving the house to go to appointments where I use a wheelchair.

I'm in severe to excruciating pain every day that i'm taking strong opiates, NSAID's and other medication for and experiencing PCS which makes me gasp with the pain and has seen me admitted to hospital on six occasions since May, with extensive tests being done.

On the occasions I have managed to get onto the site i've noticed more and more posters on various threads bash men (expected, I don't go around with my eyes closed and this IS a 99% female site). and have decided given my medical condition that now is a good time to do this.

I'll be de-activating my account at the end of November. I'm experiencing essentially NO fun in life, staring at walls. My tablet is dying, my Dell laptop is no longer with us, and being on disability benefits there is no money to replace either.

I wanted to specifically mention @toomuchtooold as making a real difference to me. Also @HomeBird8. @SleepyHay and @AttilaTheMeerkat are sensational people who have done so, so much on this thread and deserve a ton of thanks for everything that have done and do.

Thanks to everyone who has ever posted on this thread, whether seeking, or giving advice.

Do take care...always... Steve.

Sooo does anyone have an overbearing sister? I have tried to pull away from my elder sister as her negativity, bitching about our parents, her parents in law, basically everyone, was getting me down. My mum and I are basically terrified of her as she shouts at us and judges everyone if they don’t do things her way. She mixes things and causes constant drama to the point that always at any given time someone in the family is not speaking to someone else. It’s exhausting so I pulled right away. yesterday she sent me a very passive aggressive message saying long time no see or hear, and asking about Christmas presents for the kids (I don’t know why, she always leaves it til Christmas Eve thus causing more unneccessary drama) and very quickly it descended into me ‘not bothering’ with the family, me ‘never thinking they were good enough for me’ and me ‘only wanting them to help me with my childcare.’ My partner works away a lot and I work full time and my mum helps me and I pay her. My sister has five children, two grown up, a husband who does exactly as he is told and a 9-5 job that allows her to use a nursery. I work stupid o clock shifts. Basically our lives are very different and she seems to disapprove of mine. I had my family after her and used to fall in line with all her plans. when I tried to take my turn hosting it always went wrong. She was double booked, turned up two hours late, caused drama with my mum and Dad. So I don’t try now. I guess what I am saying is should I try to pull away? She pours on the guilt about not seeing the kids but I can’t face being judged any more. Help! Christmas is giving me major fear.

Hi Steve,

I'm really sorry to hear how things are going. I imagined it was something along those lines. I'm really sad that Mumsnet has become somewhere where you don't feel included, I can totally understand why you feel that way. Obv as you say it's mostly women on the site so the perspective is always going to be the one way, but I don't know if you relate to this, but I see a trend of really sort of corrosive anger and dismissal on here as well, just about everything (not on Stately Homes, and there's other nice bits of the site, but AIBU and Chat are just horrible a lot of the time) and I sometimes think it's a measure of my lack of recovery that I keep coming here to see the expression of this sort of willfully ignorant offense-taking that so reminds me of my mother.
Having said all that I'll be sad to see you go, and I'll still be hanging around here if you ever want to pop in, and you're also very welcome at the new site such as it is. I really hope that things turn a corner for you soon.

Yes, Whycantweall, I’m in that boat myself. My DSis is actually lovely tbf, but she is really bossy. Our kids are similar ages so we sort of have to get on, though since she and her family have moved a long way away in some ways it’s easier. It sort of blew up between us when we were on holiday there over half-term though.

We went through a lot together as children, as we were both abused, so there is a lot of history between us. But she has an opinion about everything and takes offence easily. My older daughter is a very fussy eater and it really wound my DSis up when she wouldn’t eat a sandwich she’d made for her and grabbed the chocolates instead, my DH let her do this, which annoyed me actually. Our DDs are adopted and DD1 (8) has Attachment Disorder and Sensory Processing Disorder so it is quite complicated.

My DSis’s issue was that we should have made DD1 apologise to her; we didn’t, I just made her give me the chocolates and she didn’t get to eat them. We were at a theme park so we were trying to be laid back. DD2 (5) ate the sandwich anyway so I couldn’t see what the issue was really. Anyway, we ended up having a massive row.

It wasn’t just about that. We had a friend that was on holiday with us, and DSis let something deeply personal about me slip, which was really humiliating. (I did some really shameful things when coping with the horrific memories of my past, whilst drinking too much.)

We resolved it, but I have to accept that if ever I share something personal she will have a lot to say about it.

It depends on how close a relationship you want with your sister, I would say. My DSis and I are allies in that we went through so much, but I just need to be careful what I share with her in the future.

Hi Steve

Am sorry to read about your both ongoing and serious health problems and also hope that things will improve for you going forward. I will also be sorry to see you leave this site; MN is not all bad but its not all good either.

I tend to avoid parts of the site like chat and AIBU and not comment on those at all unless its directly about toxic relations. Travel and the SN boards is also where you can find me at.

Thank you for your kind remarks re myself, I feel quite humbled actually.

My best wishes to you and your family unit

A x

Hello,

I've been lurking on this thread for a little while. First time posting on it.

Realised less than a year ago that my DM probably has Narcissistic Personality Disorder after reading a book about it. Been putting lots of boundaries in place since then re how often we communicate (she sometimes phones/texts/emails constantly) and see each other which is working to an extent. Latest thing is because I don't respond to many of her texts and answerphone message anymore, she just send them to my husband as well as to me. He gets that she is probably NPD (we've been married a long time, so when I realised and explained it to him he got it). It is having both good and bad effects - on the one hand he's seeing what I've put up with for so long, but on the other hand he often ends up replying when I'd just ignore! Think we need to chat to each other about having a co-ordinated united way of responding (nor not responding!) to her.

Anyone else got any experience of working out how to deal as a couple with a NPD parent so that you're both on the same page as it were and sending the same message?

Hi chocolatefiends.

One possibility is to talk to your DH and agree a strategy. However, you can’t, and may not want to, ‘force’ him to do something he may not be as ready as you to do. It depends on how far your M has already pushed him and what his emotional state is with regards to dealing with it all.

The other possibility is to accept that you can only change your behaviour, not anyone else’s. Stick to your boundaries, and make sure your DH knows what your boundaries are. In theory, what should happen eventually (and it may take a long time) is that your DH will get so fed up of your M pestering him that he will start to put up some of the same boundaries with your M that you already have. The difference will be that he has made this decision for himself, and will therefore be much more likely to stick to it.

As I said, the second method takes much longer and you’ll have to be prepared to be very strong, particularly if (as sometimes happens) your DH takes his frustration with your M out on you because he wrongly perceives your boundaries as being the problem that have forced the issue on to him.

I’m sure I’ve seen something on the internet somewhere that explains the second method better than I have - I’ll see if I can find a link.

Hi again - can’t find a link so I think I may have read it in a book - sorry. I hope it helps anyway!

I don't know how others feel about this post.

I personally think that a sub-topic inserted into this thread, entitled Fostering, children after 40 would be great.

Another sub-topic entitled Children with Lifelong illness would be most helpful.

S.