"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Clogs...it does sound bad
You were emotionally and mentally abused by the person who should have loved and protected you.
Do check out the books in the link in the original op
X

Clogsaregreat. My thoughts are with you, yes my situation is awful. But everyone on here has a valid story. I'm trying so hard to work through thus with my daughter and support my other children

Hi, I had an abusive DF. Mostly just verbal and emotional abuse really with some occasional bouts of actual violence which were severe when they happened. Mostly just threats of violence though and a lot of twisting, mind games, put downs and accusations.

The thing is my DF was deifferent from the other parents on this thread. He was not an evil monster. He was capable of great sensitivity and love at times. But he had terrifying mood swings and changes in personality. He often told us how awful we were and made fun of us.

What happened to me does not justify the PTSD symptoms I have, the BPD, or the way in which I am rubbish at empathisisng with people. But I sense that even though my abuse was minor stuff, it hurt me somehow. I was so afraid of my DF I used to want to kill myself. I felt I lived in fear. Just want to tell someone.

Discombobulated and Clogs I have no words but I just want to give you both

Thank you. My constant giving to my mum is me trying to seek approval. When she rejects me, which is actually most of the time either through ignoring (not calling, disinterested) I get upset and try to make amends and the cycle starts again. Then when she becomes hyper upset if I have a different opinion to her (I don’t hate her neice as much as she does) or if the focus moves from her, I yet again start that dance. I know what Normal is. My DH has a normal relationship with his parents. He is loved and small upsets don’t result in hysteria. Also he knows he is loved so he is secure. My mum isn’t able to love but throws me the odd nugget now and again that I grasp. Because she is so kind and giving to other people, and will occasionally give me money for petrol, I get lured into thinking she loves me as a daughter. But then she throws something back at me from years ago that I didn’t do, usually in response to me having a different opinion to her. It’s so, so dysfunctional.
It’s a new day. I’ve been here before, loads of times. This time it has to be different. Usually I call her everyday but I know if I do today she will remind me that I upset her, or she may put the phone down if I try to explain (she has done that many times) or not even answer. This time I’m not going to call her for a few days, start reading the books and get my self started

Spottedcow

Discombobulated that's terrible. Do you guys have professional support now to help your DD through this? The Survivors' Trust might be a place to start. We're not experts on this sort of stuff on this thread although there are definitely posters who've experienced SA, and you're very welcome.

Clogsaregreat it sounds like your mother was the enabler and your dad the abuser, but sadly when the abuser is gone, sometimes you can see exactly that the enabler was as emotionally unhealthy, just that it manifests itself in a different way.
Your lack of memory about some of the big episodes suggests to me that you dissociate a bit. You might be interested in Pete Walker's work, particularly on the freeze type of emotional defence.

She’s not all bad but i feel like I’ve made things very bad.
Yes, you're in the FOG, that's why you feel bad - fear, obligation and guilt. Your mother manipulates you, she shows very little interest in you whether you're doing well, like with the masters, nor if you're going through hard times, like with your cancer (for what it's worth, from a stranger on the internet - well done on the masters, and congratulations for getting through cancer. You must have had a hell of a few years). She might be OK when everything is going her way but she's not nice to you, certainly no mother. You're absolutely not to blame for this. As well as the books in the OP I'd suggest you google paranoid personality disorder and covert narcissism, as I think you may find that those descriptions ring some bells.
Talking of bells ringing: that thing with the niece, if you changed it to brother in law, I could tell exactly the same story. My uncle said something - hurtful? Badly worded? - to my mother 7 years ago and when I last spoke to her 2 years ago, it was still taking up at least a third of any phone conversation with her. One comment. I don't even know if he actually said it, because my mother has a habit, if she's outraged by someone and she wants you to feel outraged as well, she'll just make some shit up and tell you it. I think she feels like if she's that angry, the person must have done something really bad, so making up shit is kind of just like describing what she feels to be true, if that makes any sense? It's the hallmark of a raging narcissist.

polkadott
What happened to me does not justify the PTSD symptoms I have, the BPD, or the way in which I am rubbish at empathisisng with people.

Oh, it absolutely does justify it. Not that you have to justify a thing - you were abused, and you were a child, and it's not as if you had any influence on how you were affected by your abuse.

I've seen your AIBU thread briefly this morning by the way and my guess is that you don't have ASD, you've just suffered from having gone through your early childhood emotional development in the company of a violent, abusive man.

I bet you had to constantly watch your father's moods. You develop this hypervigilance, so that you notice every slight tilt of the head or change in tone. But if your experience is anything like mine, the crazy-making thing is that no matter how well you learn them, you can never 100% predict when the next violent outburst is going to come. That's because as a child you thought that you were being punished for bad behaviour and that naturally then if you learned to behave in the way that he expected, you would avoid punishment. Wrong. You were the emotional and occasionally the physical punchbag for a grown man who chose to take out his anger (probably at stuff completely unrelated to you!) on a small dependent child. It was not possible for you to avoid being abused.

I would imagine that as a result of that, you probably have a very strong intuition about what people are thinking and feeling, but you don't trust it (because it was so often wrong with your father and because more generally, abused children grow up not able to get in touch with their own inner voice and wants and feelings).

You might find this course from Richard Grannon interesting, and generally also any of the links and books in the OP.

Spottedcow sorry I meant to reply to you in my last post but only managed to type out your name

You are in the right place sadly enough, but welcome anyway. To make a sweeping generalisation I think the majority of us on the thread had primarily emotional abuse from mothers so we might not have much practical advice but we're always happy to listen.

I wouldn't know how to respond to your friend's revelation either. I don't know if perhaps she thought you would feel validated, having someone else believe you? But I can't imagine the mixture of feelings you must have, imagining what might have happened if she'd said anything. If I were you I wouldn't be that impressed about her regret either - not your job to look after her feelings on this.

toomuchtooold. Thank you, I appreciate any areas of help, yes we are all getting professional help and Rape crisis, child-line and MOSAC have been amazing.

clogsaregreat it WAS bad, that is why it looks bad. But I know how hard that concept can be to process. I am still not there yet either

toomuchtooold Thank you. Yeah, I just cannot process it all right now. I think I need to take a step back and wait. Until I am in a stronger place with it all

toomuchtooold Yes- I did have to be on guard for my father's mood a lot of the time. I often felt as though I struggled so much with daily life because I was just surviving. It was as though I had no spare energy or head space to deal with learning how to interact with others. Add to that the bullying at school and incidents of sexual abuse- I guess I developed a self concept of someone who was "if anyone gets too close, they will hurt me. If they really knew me they would hate me."

Will look into the Richard Grannon course and the books. I actually am Spottedcow, for some reason my login would not work so had to start again with new account. bless you

Toomuchtooold wow the 'freeze type' link, so me. Quite unsettled reading it. I lack memories but reading that really linked me to the emotions even if I am not sure where they come from.

polkadott I did think "wow, those two people sound quite similar" Regarding the recovery work, you have to take it at your own pace. Going into all this stuff can be retraumatising if you rush it, so if you don't feel ready, listen to that voice. Are you in therapy or considering it?

star yes I'm a freeze type as well. I can remember the start of a lot of my mother's attacks on me but nothing about the end. By the time I was in my 20s I felt sort of hollowed out, so much was missing.
I think most of us on here are freeze or fawn types. The flight types are all workaholics with no time for Mumsnet. Don't know a about the flight types, in jail probably

I am one of the workaholics, which is why I only post on here occasionally!! I think I do really a great combo of fawn, freeze and flight!
Today I need a hand hold though as I have had four solid days of the many narcissists in my life going hard at it, really, really trying to get me to get back in my box and back to my old co-dependent ways. The emotional manipulation is so exhausting especially when it comes from several directions at once.
The stress of it all is horrible and even though I know their tactics are all manipulative gas-lighting, there is generally a grain of truth to what they're saying (of course, else the tactic wouldn't work) so I keep torturing myself about it despite my best efforts.
to everyone else going through much harder stuff

Hi,
What an amazing thread - and love the title!
Just wanted to add this link. I downloaded this article and gave to people around me when trying to explain why I went NC with my family.
It`s shocking and stark explanation of a narcissistic parent (mother in this case) put into words what I myself lacked the language to do.
Hope others find it helpful (if utterly shocking!)

parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

Bestfakesmile

I’m really struggling with DH accidentally triggering me at the moment. Basically my M raised me with a lot of hints, subtle put downs, instructions disguised as helpful advice, the odd bit of gaslighting and other sneaky mind games designed to keep me where she wanted me. Now I have realised that’s what she does, I’ve become hyper sensitive about other people doing it.

DH is not very good at making direct statements. It’s not nasty, it’s just the way he communicates, and I expect that I was attracted to him in the first place because it is a hint-y type of communicating that’s pretty familiar to me because of my upbringing. Unfortunately now that my eyes (/ears?) have been opened about my M’s tactics, I’m overreacting when my DH speaks in a similar way. It’s not his fault. I’ve explained and he gets it, but at the same time I can’t expect him to change a lifetime’s sentence patterns overnight.

Anyone else get this? We keep miscommunication/arguing because of it, and it’s the last thing I need on top of my M’s crap.

Bestfakesmile

Spare I have a sort of similar situation with DH. DH grew up in a house that was basically a milder version of mine - FIL is a bit narcissistic and a pain in the arse and MIL enables him a bit but they're not that bad, and FIL seems to be realising what a low tolerance I have for his bullshit mellowing as he gets older so again he communicates in a lot of the same ways and things like that. He does things like sighing angrily at the computer when it's not working, and it sends my heart rate through the bloody roof. I think it's supposed to get me to go and help him, but without him having to admit that he needs to ask for help (he's a bit sensitive about the fact that he's not great with computers). And so I say to him, if you want me to give you a hand, you only have to ask, but I must admit I say it quite loudly
The other issue we have is that sometimes he'll ask my advice about something and I'll go "well, there's [benefits] but there's also a couple of [risks]" and because his dad would use that as a way of undermining his plans ("oh that sounds like a great idea, but have you thought about x and y and z") he usually responds defensively as if I've told him I think it's a shit idea. And I've said to him, look, if I think your idea is shit I'll tell you it's shit, so trust me that if I point out difficulties I'm not trying to put you off, I'm just highlighting what needs done to make it work. But we've had this conversation lots of times.

toomuch I’m glad it’s not just me. I had another read of the Pete Walker page on flashbacks which has helped. Apparently just the fact that I’ve made the connection with past events is a start.

Hi everyone, sorry I haven't been replying to people's posts much lately.

I'm having a really dreadful time at the moment, family stuff is at an absolute climax and it is just excruciatingly painful. I can't post about it publicly but would anyone be willing to let me PM them about it or does anyone know of any secure/ secret forums I could post on? Desperate for support. Thanks

Chest you can PM me if you like. There's also a slightly less high profile SH thread, I'll PM you the details.

Hi too could you PM it to me too please? I didn't know there was another one :)

It's a bit of an open secret! I'll PM you now.

I'd be interested in the other thread as posting on here stresses me sometimes in case it's found. It's been a little while.

for you Chest

lenl I'll PM you the details of the other thread.

Also I don't know if anyone remembers, but earlier this year we were talking about doing a separate forum where we could have threads that were only viewable to members. Serioussteve did a lot of work towards a custom built one but he's been suffering from chronic illness and a lot of other stuff on his plate and I've not been able to contact him for a few months. I mean obviously the first thing there is that I hope he's OK, but the second thing is, I put together a very basic message board on some free software, and that's at

Stately Survivors on Freeforums.

What do you guys think, would you like to give it a go?

toomuch I’d join that if enough of us were interested. (And thank you.)